Is it OK to offer psychedelics to a recovering addict?

[perpetualdawn]

Thanks again to everyone for the ongoing discussion. A few comments:

This isn't a thread about using PDs to help him deal with his addiction, the addiction issues are separate and beyond. I use the word recovering in the sense that an addict always will have to avoid their addiction for the rest of their life, not in the sense that he's actively abusing the substances in his life any more.

It's a Question about whether or not you can treat PDs as a completely separate thing from the substances he was addicted to. A similar flavoured question would be "is it ok to offer sweets to a recovering addict?"

The effectiveness of 12 step AA type programs is very questionable. That is, unless you're involved in it, then you're not allowed to question. Maybe they work, maybe they cause more harm than good by pretending to be the be all end all. Science has not shown them to be effective. That's off topic though.

 

[rpm]

Thanks again to everyone for the ongoing discussion. A few comments:

This isn't a thread about using PDs to help him deal with his addiction, the addiction issues are separate and beyond. I use the word recovering in the sense that an addict always will have to avoid their addiction for the rest of their life, not in the sense that he's actively abusing the substances in his life any more.

It's a Question about whether or not you can treat PDs as a completely separate thing from the substances he was addicted to. A similar flavoured question would be "is it ok to offer sweets to a recovering addict?"

The effectiveness of 12 step AA type programs is very questionable. That is, unless you're involved in it, then you're not allowed to question. Maybe they work, maybe they cause more harm than good by pretending to be the be all end all. Science has not shown them to be effective. That's off topic though.

Do you have a source for that? In my experience all "talking" treatments can be said to lack evidence - mostly because the outcomes are so hard to quantify. But a bit of research seems to suggest that 12 step is at least as effective as other treatments. For example this http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/04/defense-12-step-addiction

PS. sorry for dragging this off topic

 

[perpetualdawn]

Do you have a source for that? In my experience all "talking" treatments can be said to lack evidence - mostly because the outcomes are so hard to quantify. But a bit of research seems to suggest that 12 step is at least as effective as other treatments. For example this http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/04/defense-12-step-addiction

PS. sorry for dragging this off topic

I have to admit that I don't go around reading papers on this subject, and am basing this statement mainly off of a radio debate I heard a few months ago! But here's a wikipedia article outlining some of the doubt (re: AA specifically) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous

I think part of the criticism of AA effectiveness is that it's a self-selecting success club, and failure is blamed on the individual and not the program.

Say I made a "jump club" for ppl who want to jump 24" in the air. In my club we sit around and talk about jumping. One of the rules of the club is that it works, and the other rule is that if it doesn't work for you then it's your fault. So if it does work, you might stick around and tell everyone how well it worked for you, and spread the message about how well the jump club works. But if you were unable to jump 24", you might leave the club because you feel inadequate since it's your fault you couldn't do it. So when you take a measurement to see if people in jump club were able to jump higher, a simplistic poll will be deceived by this built in bias.

 

[rpm]

I have to admit that I don't go around reading papers on this subject, and am basing this statement mainly off of a radio debate I heard a few months ago! But here's a wikipedia article outlining some of the doubt (re: AA specifically) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous

Say I made a "jump club" for ppl who want to jump 24" in the air. In my club we sit around and talk about jumping. One of the rules of the club is that it works, and the other rule is that if it doesn't work for you then it's your fault. So if it does work, you might stick around and tell everyone how well it worked for you, and spread the message about how well the jump club works. But if you were unable to jump 24", you might leave the club because you feel inadequate since it's your fault you couldn't do it. So when you take a measurement to see if people in jump club were able to jump higher, a simplistic poll will be deceived by this built in bias.

One would hope that the research wouldn't use such a simplistic poll, but then again I'm often astonished at how shoddy some research is!

I do hear what you are saying, but I think its unfair to dismiss the 12 step program. There are many, many success stories - people who say they owe their lives to it. On the other hand I prefer the idea of a CBT based intervention, but that's just me.

I think one of the reasons people tend to get bothered by the 12 step thing because of the submission to a higher power shtick. For one reason because atheists see this as brain washing and for another because it appears to suggest that the person doesn't have any free will (if there is one thing people hate having taken away from them its freedom). Anyway, I'm hardly and expert either, I just know people who swear by it and a brief look at the literature seems to suggest it has at least some benefit.

 

[jason7]

I guess psychs wouldn't hurt of recovering addict, probably. They don't really produce a reward type effect like, say, narcotics or stims. It's doubtful they would make a person want to start back on harmful drugs. An argument could be made that recovering addicts shouldn't drink coffee or smoke cigarettes, being that both are addictive drugs which cause a reward effect. I suppose it depends on the person's constitution as to whether or not a psych would set them off on drug seeking behavior.

 

[phuckingnutz]

It's a Question about whether or not you can treat PDs as a completely separate thing from the substances he was addicted to. A similar flavoured question would be "is it ok to offer sweets to a recovering addict?"

To answer your question, "yes" it is OK and PD's can be treated as a separate entity, at least for me.
I'm an "ex" meth/opioid/barbiturate junkie and , if anything, psychedelics help me to stay clean by alleviating my boredom...and boredom, IME/O, is a BIG reason I was a junkie in the first place.

 

[rpm]

I'm an "ex" meth/opioid/barbiturate junkie and , if anything, psychedelics help me to stay clean by alleviating my boredom...and boredom, IME/O, is a BIG reason I was a junkie in the first place.

Again it depends from person to person. In my case I agree with you: when ever I take psychedelics I come out of it wanting to live healthier, sort shit in my life out I've been neglecting ect. The last thing they do is make me want to take other drugs. They always remind me how great life is, and how being wasted all the time can kind of be a waste.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Again it depends from person to person. In my case I agree with you: when ever I take psychedelics I come out of it wanting to live healthier, sort shit in my life out I've been neglecting ect. The last thing they do is make me want to take other drugs. They always remind me how great life is, and how being wasted all the time can kind of be a waste.

That's how it is for me too. When I take psychedelics, I notice myself drinking booze less and overeating less in the following weeks (not that I have a real problem with these things, sort of like minor vices for me), being more patient and kind with my loved ones, taking care of myself better. But I can see how it could go the other way too for some people who've had addiction problems, because it could be a reminder of general altered-ness.

This is a delicate question, and I'm going to have to treat it carefully. I think I will wait at least another year while my friend continues his sobriety. After some time I'll gauge the matter again, and if it seems right, bring it up casually. I know he won't be offended because he hangs out with people drinking at social gatherings already, and is offered alcohol al the time, and always turns it down.