Is it OK to offer psychedelics to a recovering addict?

[phactor]

This is a question, not rhetorical. Do you think that someone who has had a problem with one drug can only make a recovery from addiction to that drug by becoming teetotal? Is it really all or nothing once addiction has been reached?

I don't know, I have never really been through the process. But everything I know about the human brain and behavior suggests that it should be possible for us to separate one altered state from another. I can't see why a coke addict who is fully recovered and clean for a few years couldn't take salvia for instance, particularly if it is search of something other than "getting out of it".

Obviously it depends on the person, the stage of recovery and what the goals are. My answer to this question would be that unless the person has been clean for a while, and wants to use psychedelics for a different purpose than recreation then no. But if they have and they ask then think about it.

In my opinion, there is to much focus on the class of drugs in this thread and not enough in the nature of addiction in general. When it comes to addiction in my studies (I am a social worker and a Graduate Student in an Social Work program with an addiction treatment focus) as well as my personal experience as an addict (who is now in recovery) it doesn't matter if a drug is a psychedelic, opiate, stimulant etc etc I will abuse it. True, psychedelics do not have the abuse potential that some other drugs do but the tolerance issue comes into play with that. Many of us know the "acid causality". Its pretty hard to get high on something like LSD several days in a row, but believe me people try. Furthermore, drugs like Cannabis, Dissociatives and even MDMA can and have been abused with more frequency over the past 2 decades. Hell, PCP was very popular for quite some time. When I was using psychedelics a lot, I did them excessively, just like any other drug.

The class of drugs never mattered to me, if I could abuse it I would. Sure, I had my favorites, but I still would abuse anything I could get my hands on. If I did start using again, the story would be the same. This isn't going away, I'd guess the only hope would be genetic manipulation maybe. I cannot use any mind or mood altering substance without placing myself at risk. I have 15 years of personal experience with this.

But I am getting off topic, addicts tend to very seldom use drugs recreationally. They are seeking to fill a void, cover emotions, forget their issues, feel empowered, control a situation, ignore a situation etc etc. Addicts are of course extremely prone to relapse.. Putting oneself in an altered state when in recovery can cause several things. It can cause guilt about "screwing up" which leads to a "fuck it" which leads back to a drug of choice. It can cause someone to think "well I handled this just fine so I can handle that". Of course Psychedelics can cause the individual to focus on one's pass and often addicts feel guilt over that. It is nowhere guaranteed that the experience will be beneficial.

Just an example of what could happen: Your friend ends up having a bad trip, it happens. He feels so overwhelmed with anxiety he seeks out a sure-fire way to rid himself of that anxiety. Booze. The next day he drinks again. And same thing the next day. He gets drunk, seeks out coke and its back on. That's not all though, he ends up going back out for another two years or so and ends up using dope.

You might think that couldn't happen but it could. Like I said, Psychedelics in some ways lead to my opiate abuse. I used them for the comedowns initially and it just increased from there. It might sound extreme, but its a risk that isn't worth taking.

Now, there is a difference between addiction and abuse. 99.9 percent of addicts will not be able to use any substance without eventually causing themselves problems. Abusers who are not addicts tend to outgrow their issues. The fact that your friend had multiple dependencies adds to the issue. Furthermore, only he knows how bad his use was. He could be under-reporting it. He could still be in a bit of denial. There are so many factors at play that it simply isn't worth he risk, no matter your intentions. Again, I urge you to think about you having to ask if this is a good idea. Good ideas usually do not need second thoughts.

phactor: My friend is someone I know extremely intimately, I know him in my own bones. I can feel nearly full certainty that he will stick to a life free of booze and coke. Watching his detox and recovery has given me new hope in the possibility of recovery from addiction, and even in the human ability to break patterns. So yes I have the right to judge his recovery. And it's a good thing.

First of all, you can feel nearly full certainty all you want but really all most addicts have is today. You will see people with 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years relapse all the time. It happens. Nobody can guarantee anything when it comes to recovery. Especially, if they have people offering them drugs. I know for me that even though I try to avoid situations where drugs and alcohol are present, I do sometimes happen to come across them. Its still hard to ignore it. I still sometimes feel bad for myself when I pass a bar I used to go to. Its just the nature of the disease. We are addicts, we like to use. Problem is that when we use we suffer extreme consequences because most of us literally cannot stop without tremendous effort.

This is a harm reduction board, I argue that doing anything to jeopardize an individuals recovery does not match this boards intended purpose. Also, you really do not have any right to judge his recovery. Its great its an inspiration to you and all, but that doesn't matter. His recovery is his alone and isn't something to be trifled with. I am sure you can find other people to trip with. Again, no offense intended.

This is a very narrow-minded view of "recovery" that's parroted by AA and treatment centers. The long-term goals for anyone with past problems are going to be different. Some might subscribe to the teetotaler idea, while some might want to live a happy life instead.

I am happiest and most spiritually fit when I am totally clean. People can live a happy life clean. In fact, most of the people with addiction issues that I know are happy have stayed clean. I know very few addicts who have started using again who are happy. Even if they are "just drinking" or something like that.

 

[Xorkoth]

Is your friend trying to be SOBER, or just sober from alcohol and cocaine? If total sobriety is the goal then I'd say it wouldn't be okay to ask him. But if it's not, then sure, if you think that would work for him. I mean I went sober from opiates but I have no intention of stopping psychedelics and marijuana, because I don't have a problem with those and they enrich my life.

Using a psychedelic does not equal abuse of the psychedelic, though abuse of psychedelics is obviously possible. I am able to use psychedelics responsibly without it triggering a desire for opiates or abuse, quite the opposite in fact. There is no need for me to become a teetotaler, I believe that would be less healthy for me personally, less real, less authentic. That probably wouldn't be true for everyone though.

 

[rpm]

Phactor. I'm actually getting a bit off topic here, as I pretty much agree with you. If this guy is an addict in the sense you are talking about then he shouldn't do drugs period.

However, what I'm interested in is the black and white terms we use to describe addicts, abusers and recreational users. I myself have been addicted to coke. Maybe not as bad as some but definitely far too much. I used it to escape bad situations and feel good about myself. About two years ago I realized and basically snapped out of it. I have done it maybe 3 or 4 times since, and each time I feel like I'm relapsing - taking huge lines, going through too much at once. Now I just try not to touch the stuff.

I do still take psychedelics, and I wouldn't say I abuse them at all. I also do MDMA. I'd say I trip 12 times a year at most and take MDMA about 6 times. Is this because I was never a "real" addict? Or is it shades of gray? I think each individual is different: for some total abstinence is the answer, for others dealing with the underlying problems and cutting out the problem drugs is enough.

BTW, I'd love to hear your opinion on this (not just on my situation, just the whole once an addict always an addict thing) as you obviously have a lot of both professional and personal experience.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

It's important to attempt to see their desire for using the drug.
Does their desire for use stem from wanting to get high again and continue his cycle of addiction or is it for self exploration and learning.
Psychedelic use can, like any other drug, cause a relapse in an addict for those who use them to abuse them.

 

[StanleyJobson]

I agree with Xorkoth and Jesus. I've tried to follow the rigid, black-and-white, "just say no!" mindset described by a couple here, and let me tell you, it's a terrible way to live. Phactor mentioned guilt being a factor in relapses. This happens only because when someone relapses with that mentality, it's because they did something wrong, or didn't do something good enough. It's never because the system is flawed (and it is!)

Here in the good ol' US of A, the justice system rams 12-step down your throat if you get in trouble, so I have a lot of experience with it. I actually went through the 12-steps earlier this year, and while I think some of the steps can be useful for alleviating guilt, I can say for certain that the best I've felt in the past decade was when I stopped going to meetings, and started thinking that there has to be a better way to live than follow the total abstinence, 12 step model (As some of you guys know, the co-founder of AA, Bill. W, was a huge advocate of LSD, and wanted to give it to all alcoholics, but AA was too insecure about it)

Anywho, I think the most important take-away is that there's no ONE right way to do things. 12-steppers tend to live on a spiritual hilltop and guilt-trip those that don't follow the herd, but all that guilt is self-perpetuating. The times we live in aren't so black-and-white as they were even a decade ago. Nowadays, there are medications that completely suppress cravings. Psychedelics are being explored as treatment for addictions. People struggling are no longer forced to admit defeat and pray to god to help them. The most important thing, I think, is for everyone to just keep an open mind. %)

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

This is a question, not rhetorical. Do you think that someone who has had a problem with one drug can only make a recovery from addiction to that drug by becoming teetotal? Is it really all or nothing once addiction has been reached?

I don't know, I have never really been through the process. But everything I know about the human brain and behavior suggests that it should be possible for us to separate one altered state from another. I can't see why a coke addict who is fully recovered and clean for a few years couldn't take salvia for instance, particularly if it is search of something other than "getting out of it".

Obviously it depends on the person, the stage of recovery and what the goals are. My answer to this question would be that unless the person has been clean for a while, and wants to use psychedelics for a different purpose than recreation then no. But if they have and they ask then think about it.

I'm not sure? I think that for addicts, it's not all about drugs and that it starts with someone's personality, or even their genes in some
cases, and it's not like this in people who are normal who do not have an addiction or addictive personality, or any sort of addiction.

I do know however that with us addicts sometimes we'll transfer addictions or substitute one addiction for another like picking one drug over another one and claiming that it's OK to use, that it's not really addictive or being avoidant, and some addicts do get addicted to things that are not drugs.

I have met other addicts who told me how they had addictions to things that were not drugs like food, sex, spending money/buying things,
gambling, the internet, or exercise. I also have met people who did get sober and then transferred their addiction onto something like food, spending money/buying things, gambling, sex, exercise, etc.

 

[Xorkoth]

It's very unique to the individual. For me, psychedelics are something fundamentally different from opiates. I have had issues abusing them in the past but that's in the past for me. Opiates are not connected to psychedelics in any way for me. I can use them and not trigger my opiate addiction at all. But I know people who this is not true for as well.

 

[phactor]

I do still take psychedelics, and I wouldn't say I abuse them at all. I also do MDMA. I'd say I trip 12 times a year at most and take MDMA about 6 times. Is this because I was never a "real" addict? Or is it shades of gray? I think each individual is different: for some total abstinence is the answer, for others dealing with the underlying problems and cutting out the problem drugs is enough.

BTW, I'd love to hear your opinion on this (not just on my situation, just the whole once an addict always an addict thing) as you obviously have a lot of both professional and personal experience.

I don't get all into the who is a "real" addict and all that stuff. Lots of times I cringe when I hear that at meetings. I can say that the viewpoint is fading out. Now, most of the time people say "only you know if you are an addict or not". The other point stressed is to: Not judge another individuals bottom or if they are an addict. I'd imagine if an addict at a meeting was told they were not an addict they would haul ass out of the meeting and use. Thats a great rationalization.

If a person comes to me asking for help, often they are at a point where shit has gotten really bad for them. People don't often end up in recovery because shit is going well for them. Like I said earlier, consequences often (not always) have to add up. That level varies from person to person. Everyone's bottom is a different.

I know people that have been able to moderate, I know people that have moderated for awhile and then ended up hooked, I know people that just started drinking heavily, I know people like myself that simply cannot use anything at all. Like I said, I have to be careful taking medicine with DXM at regular does. I hate how it makes me feel, but I will be damned if I don't try to talk myself into taking "one more". Its how I always have been, when I was a kid I was obsessed with candy, then video games, then pot, then psychedelics, then alcohol, then opiates, then coke etc etc. My thinking is the major issue, not the drug itself.

The other question is: Would the individuals life be better if they stayed clean? Most of the time, if the individual is honest with himself/herself they answer yes. Is maybe "just drinking" an improvement if they were shooting up and smoking crack? Possibly. But they are always at an increased risk of a relapse. The main goal of treatment is to educate the individual how he or she can stay clean (obviously because its difficult and the person has to want to do it). Another huge factor is called "Relapse Prevention" and the main thing is do everything possible to not place your recovery at any type of risk.

There are always exceptions to the rule of course, but they are exceptions. Not the majority. Lots and lots of people have times in their lives when they go heavy with this or that (college being a huge one) but they grow out of it. Others, like myself never do. I constantly thought I would, my parents thought I would (they did) but it just kept going. Then I realized I couldn't stop and was fucked for a long time. It takes a long time to get yourself to get clean.

Feel free to PM me if you want.

I agree with Xorkoth and Jesus. I've tried to follow the rigid, black-and-white, "just say no!" mindset described by a couple here, and let me tell you, it's a terrible way to live. Phactor mentioned guilt being a factor in relapses. This happens only because when someone relapses with that mentality, it's because they did something wrong, or didn't do something good enough. It's never because the system is flawed (and it is!)

Here in the good ol' US of A, the justice system rams 12-step down your throat if you get in trouble, so I have a lot of experience with it. I actually went through the 12-steps earlier this year, and while I think some of the steps can be useful for alleviating guilt, I can say for certain that the best I've felt in the past decade was when I stopped going to meetings, and started thinking that there has to be a better way to live than follow the total abstinence, 12 step model (As some of you guys know, the co-founder of AA, Bill. W, was a huge advocate of LSD, and wanted to give it to all alcoholics, but AA was too insecure about it)

Anywho, I think the most important take-away is that there's no ONE right way to do things. 12-steppers tend to live on a spiritual hilltop and guilt-trip those that don't follow the herd, but all that guilt is self-perpetuating. The times we live in aren't so black-and-white as they were even a decade ago. Nowadays, there are medications that completely suppress cravings. Psychedelics are being explored as treatment for addictions. People struggling are no longer forced to admit defeat and pray to god to help them. The most important thing, I think, is for everyone to just keep an open mind. %)

I am very happy thank you very much. I can readily admit that some people can moderate and also admit that the 12 steps do not have a monopoly in recovery. You also have another person in this thread that is staying clean without the use of the 12 steps.

You make tons of absolutist statements that are complete non-sense like:

"Phactor mentioned guilt being a factor in relapses. This happens only because when someone relapses with that mentality, it's because they did something wrong, or didn't do something good enough. "

Guilt is often present in addicts for a variety of reasons and people who relapse after being clean tend to feel guilty 12 steps or not. The 12 steps tend to take relapse very seriously, because it can literally kill people. Its extremely dangerous. They also make it clear that the person who relapses is welcomed back (I have personally experienced this) and they stress they should not feel guilty. People who do relapse will often say "I stopped doing what was working" which is often true.

There are a few assholes who feel they are better then everyone "in the rooms" but there are assholes everywhere. The 12 steps stress humility and non-judgement.You seem to be extending your personal experience to an entire program. Would you believe that I used to say stuff very similar to you? Because I did. But that was because I wanted to see all the flaws in the 12 steps. Not saying this is the case for you, but I know that I did everything possible to convince myself I was controlling my use when I wasn't. There were times it was "under control" but it never lasted.

The court ordered stuff is an "outside issue" and 12 step groups have no opinion on judges mandating attendance at meetings. The only thing they are concerned about is that person being welcomed no matter the circumstance they arrived.

Also, Bill Wilson used LSD a few times and wasn't really an advocate for it. Bill Wilson suffered from many personal problems and depression.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-theory

Bill Wilson made it clear that he wasn't "AA" so when the group decide not to use LSD it wasn't about "insecurity". It was about a group conscious being taken.

But, according to Pass It On, published in 1984 by AA World Services in New York, the movement was totally against his suggestions. "As word of Bill's activities reached the fellowship there were inevitable repercussions. Most AAs were violently opposed to his experimenting with a mind-altering substance. LSD was then totally unfamiliar, poorly researched, and entirely experimental – and Bill was taking it."

LSD and psychedelics did have a positive impact on me. I still hold MDMA and 2C-B especially in a favorable light, I treasure some of my experiences on them. However, if I were to take it now I know the experience would not be enjoyable because I would be jeopardizing my clean time and I am well beyond needing psychedelics to have spiritual experiences. I find it in other ways today.

Also, could you imagine how miserable it would be to trip in a church basement with a bunch of ex addicts?

 

[Burnt Offerings]

They type of drug (ab)user who just goes to town on any and all drugs, regardless of what the drug in question is, is probably extremely rare. The message of total sobriety isn't one I particularly agree with, although maybe it's appropriate for some problematic drug users, but I don't see a problem with, say, a former heroin addict having a drink now and then. Unless drinking inspires them to go out and buy more heroin. Different substances inspire different reactions in people with addictive personalities too, I think...for example I've taken powerful opiate painkillers on 2 or 3 occasions, and have never really found them to be terribly addictive, but certain stimulant drugs I find to be very addictive.

Psychedelic hallucinogens, from my experience, are a very difficult class of drug to abuse...after a strong trip I have absolutely 0 desire to trip again for a good while, even if I have the means to do so.

 

[rpm]

The other question is: Would the individuals life be better if they stayed clean? Most of the time, if the individual is honest with himself/herself they answer yes. Is maybe "just drinking" an improvement if they were shooting up and smoking crack? Possibly. But they are always at an increased risk of a relapse. The main goal of treatment is to educate the individual how he or she can stay clean (obviously because its difficult and the person has to want to do it). Another huge factor is called "Relapse Prevention" and the main thing is do everything possible to not place your recovery at any type of risk.

Thanks for that, it's pretty interesting. I've been thinking a lot about this recently as a close friend of mine went of the rails and is now with the NA and sober. Talking to him about drug use can sometimes be a bit close to the bone. I've certainly done my fair share of polly drug abuse, although it's mostly in the past.

Personally I think there are a number of reasons people take drugs such as to escape, to have fun or for sheer exploration. Some reasons are better than others, and often there can be more than one motivation at a time. I think it's important to remain aware of your reasons for taking a drug, as that way you arn't fooling yourself.

 

[phactor]

They type of drug (ab)user who just goes to town on any and all drugs, regardless of what the drug in question is, is probably extremely rare

The large majority of people who attend treatment or get clean eventually relapse. 23+ million Americans attend treatment a year. Thats a hell of a lot of people.

So the number is higher then you would assume. I am sure some of these people slow down, but not all of them do. Lots also progress. Lots of people end up in and out of treatment. And, like I said earlier, people can moderate for awhile and then are off to the races. Others will keep using in ways that it is impacting quality of life.

 

[StanleyJobson]

Phactor, we could apparently keep going back and forth over many of the points. My POV is not nearly as absolutist as yours, IMO. In fact, mine is the opposite of absolutist. Instead, I'll just say that:

Also, could you imagine how miserable it would be to trip in a church basement with a bunch of ex addicts?

Would be about as miserable as having a 60-90 minute meeting in a church basement with a bunch of ex addicts talking about how miserable alcohol is.

 

[phactor]

Thanks for that, it's pretty interesting. I've been thinking a lot about this recently as a close friend of mine went of the rails and is now with the NA and sober. Talking to him about drug use can sometimes be a bit close to the bone. I've certainly done my fair share of polly drug abuse, although it's mostly in the past.

Personally I think there are a number of reasons people take drugs such as to escape, to have fun or for sheer exploration. Some reasons are better than others, and often their can be more than one motivation at a time. I think it's important to remain aware of the your reasons for taking a drug, as that way you arn't fooling yourself.

Sure. And like I said, lots of people do have periods where they party heavily and slow down. Lots of my friends and relatives were able to curtail their use. I and a few others never could. The one thing I will point out, is that denial is often so strong that one literally cannot realize how much they are screwing up when using. I told myself anything and everything to keep using. That is why the whole "consequences" thing comes into play.

But I used for a good 15 years. It didn't happen immediately, it was a progression. I used problematically from the start, but my body couldn't take it. Also, as I aged life became more complex and I couldn't keep up. It was much easier being an addict in my teens and early 20s compared to my mid and late 20s (I am 31).

 

[phactor]

Phactor, we could apparently keep going back and forth over many of the points. My POV is not nearly as absolutist as yours, IMO. In fact, mine is the opposite of absolutist. Instead, I'll just say that

it's a terrible way to live.

Yeah thats the epitomy of "opposite of absolutist" right there.

 

[StanleyJobson]

Geez, you're worse than I thought!

Yeah thats the epitomy of "opposite of absolutist" right there.

First off, it's "epitome."

Second: absolutism is defined as: "An absolute doctrine,principle,or standard."

The definition for "opinion": "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof"

My opinion that the whole treatment-center/12-step mentality is a terrible way to live is not an absolute statement.

You're getting way too defensive over this, which is basically reinforcing what I've been saying about holier-than-thou 12-steppers. My advice: lighten up. Try to get some enjoyment out of life.

 

[phactor]

Geez, you're worse than I thought!


First off, it's "epitome."

Second: absolutism is defined as: "An absolute doctrine,principle,or standard."

The definition for "opinion": "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof"

My opinion that the whole treatment-center/12-step mentality is a terrible way to live is not an absolute statement.

You're getting way too defensive over this, which is basically reinforcing what I've been saying about holier-than-thou 12-steppers. My advice: lighten up. Try to get some enjoyment out of life.

I don't need the personal attacks, they cheapen what you are saying. I am not "worse then you thought" and I can assure you that my life is going great for the most part. I have lots of things to be grateful for, life being one of them.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism

You saying that by all circumstances that living a 12 step recovery is by all means "a terrible way to live" is the definition of moral absolutism. Its an absolutist statement to suggest that I am unable to "get some enjoyment out of life" because I work a 12 step program.

I have in no way made any statements like that, I have mentioned that many possibilities are possible and then mainly spoke on my own personal experience. I believe in many different types of recovery and have seen them work. So there is no reason to portray me as a "holier-than-thou 12 stepper". You are making assumptions about me.

I am sorry you apparently had a bad experience with the 12 steps and meetings, I even wonder why you attended. However, this board is a harm reduction board and you shouldn't use your personal experience to try to convince others to not attempt certain methods of recovery, simply because you do not like them.

 

[rpm]

I think the problem here is that drugs being illegal as they are, people are told they are bad. This makes drug users feel defensive when they talk to someone who has decided to become sober. For me at least there is a bit of me saying, "am I wrong, have they seen the light". Add to this the fact that we have all done something stupid while high and it makes us question our actions and drug use. Along with that there is a feeling that all NA or AA members believe that drugs are bad for everyone.

From my experience this isn;t the case. AA and NA members have simply decided that they cannot continue to use drugs as the consequences are too bad. They don't all think this is the case for everyone. To put it in Freudian terms we are using an ego defence mechanism by going, "they are all wrong thinking sobriety cultists". It would be better if we just examined our own behavior and decided if it is healthy and didn't worry so much about other peoples.

 

[StanleyJobson]

You're still quite confused. My entire message has been to keep an open-mind, and that there is more than one way to recover from alcoholism and addiction. This is no longer 1950, and 12-step programs aren't the only thing around any more. I'm spreading a positive message, not trying to convince others not to attend AA. I clearly hit a sore spot with you when I mentioned how enjoyable I found meetings to be.

Its an absolutist statement to suggest that I am unable to "get some enjoyment out of life" because I work a 12 step program.

I'm not saying you're unable to get some enjoyment out of life because you work a 12-step program, I'm saying you need to lighten up based on the posts you've made in this thread.

Anyways, I'm done here.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

In my opinion, there is to much focus on the class of drugs in this thread and not enough in the nature of addiction in general. When it comes to addiction in my studies (I am a social worker and a Graduate Student in an Social Work program with an addiction treatment focus) as well as my personal experience as an addict (who is now in recovery) it doesn't matter if a drug is a psychedelic, opiate, stimulant etc etc I will abuse it. True, psychedelics do not have the abuse potential that some other drugs do but the tolerance issue comes into play with that. Many of us know the "acid causality". Its pretty hard to get high on something like LSD several days in a row, but believe me people try. Furthermore, drugs like Cannabis, Dissociatives and even MDMA can and have been abused with more frequency over the past 2 decades. Hell, PCP was very popular for quite some time. When I was using psychedelics a lot, I did them excessively, just like any other drug.

The class of drugs never mattered to me, if I could abuse it I would. Sure, I had my favorites, but I still would abuse anything I could get my hands on. If I did start using again, the story would be the same. This isn't going away, I'd guess the only hope would be genetic manipulation maybe. I cannot use any mind or mood altering substance without placing myself at risk. I have 15 years of personal experience with this.

But I am getting off topic, addicts tend to very seldom use drugs recreationally. They are seeking to fill a void, cover emotions, forget their issues, feel empowered, control a situation, ignore a situation etc etc. Addicts are of course extremely prone to relapse.. Putting oneself in an altered state when in recovery can cause several things. It can cause guilt about "screwing up" which leads to a "fuck it" which leads back to a drug of choice. It can cause someone to think "well I handled this just fine so I can handle that". Of course Psychedelics can cause the individual to focus on one's pass and often addicts feel guilt over that. It is nowhere guaranteed that the experience will be beneficial.

Just an example of what could happen: Your friend ends up having a bad trip, it happens. He feels so overwhelmed with anxiety he seeks out a sure-fire way to rid himself of that anxiety. Booze. The next day he drinks again. And same thing the next day. He gets drunk, seeks out coke and its back on. That's not all though, he ends up going back out for another two years or so and ends up using dope.

You might think that couldn't happen but it could. Like I said, Psychedelics in some ways lead to my opiate abuse. I used them for the comedowns initially and it just increased from there. It might sound extreme, but its a risk that isn't worth taking.

Now, there is a difference between addiction and abuse. 99.9 percent of addicts will not be able to use any substance without eventually causing themselves problems. Abusers who are not addicts tend to outgrow their issues. The fact that your friend had multiple dependencies adds to the issue. Furthermore, only he knows how bad his use was. He could be under-reporting it. He could still be in a bit of denial. There are so many factors at play that it simply isn't worth he risk, no matter your intentions. Again, I urge you to think about you having to ask if this is a good idea. Good ideas usually do not need second thoughts.



First of all, you can feel nearly full certainty all you want but really all most addicts have is today. You will see people with 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years relapse all the time. It happens. Nobody can guarantee anything when it comes to recovery. Especially, if they have people offering them drugs. I know for me that even though I try to avoid situations where drugs and alcohol are present, I do sometimes happen to come across them. Its still hard to ignore it. I still sometimes feel bad for myself when I pass a bar I used to go to. Its just the nature of the disease. We are addicts, we like to use. Problem is that when we use we suffer extreme consequences because most of us literally cannot stop without tremendous effort.

This is a harm reduction board, I argue that doing anything to jeopardize an individuals recovery does not match this boards intended purpose. Also, you really do not have any right to judge his recovery. Its great its an inspiration to you and all, but that doesn't matter. His recovery is his alone and isn't something to be trifled with. I am sure you can find other people to trip with. Again, no offense intended.



I am happiest and most spiritually fit when I am totally clean. People can live a happy life clean. In fact, most of the people with addiction issues that I know are happy have stayed clean. I know very few addicts who have started using again who are happy. Even if they are "just drinking" or something like that.

Sure. And like I said, lots of people do have periods where they party heavily and slow down. Lots of my friends and relatives were able to curtail their use. I and a few others never could. The one thing I will point out, is that denial is often so strong that one literally cannot realize how much they are screwing up when using. I told myself anything and everything to keep using. That is why the whole "consequences" thing comes into play.

But I used for a good 15 years. It didn't happen immediately, it was a progression. I used problematically from the start, but my body couldn't take it. Also, as I aged life became more complex and I couldn't keep up. It was much easier being an addict in my teens and early 20s compared to my mid and late 20s (I am 31).

That's how it was for me. I would binge/abuse drugs, stay sober for long periods of time sometimes half a year or more, but always return to my drugs of choice of cannabis, alcohol, psychedelics (LSD and mushrooms), prescription stimulants in low doses, and sometimes opiates. Myself and other addicts did not start out as addicts and we did use as normal people do at first sometimes for years or decades. Then addiction sneaks up on you. But it's like this for everyone I know that's an addict.

I'm personally not into AA/NA as I wrote before; but I don't care if other people are and find longterm sobriety through AA/NA.

 

[jason7]

I can tell you something which is supposed to be good for reducing addictive cravings, Kudzu root. You don't even have to take Ibogaine and have a freaky trip.