Is MDMA neurotoxic and does it cause brain damage?

[Black]

I wish the MDMA I did was for instance methylone or mephedrone, as MDMA is far more neurotoxic(in animal models) than any of them. Unfortunately my product was pure.

how do you know it was pure? did you send it in to a lab?

and what symptoms did you get? any obviously neurological deficits or the "usual" anxiety/difficulty concentrating/(slightly) altered perception maybe with a bit of dr/dp? if it's the latter then it's not neurotoxicity. i'm pretty prone to anxiety so i've been there before multiple times and it has lasted upwards of two months once before i knew how to get it under control. now i'd take benzos at the first signs before the viscious circle of anxiety and checking your symptoms spirals out of control. with that kind of regimen it lasts 2 or 3 day tops. this is not neurotoxicity, it's psychological. there is no way that benzos can magically make dead neurons/axon terminals come back to life.

 

[JahSEEuS]

Always good to be safe though, I have only ever done mdma over 2 days once and that was the first ever time I tried it. Left me feeling bad for 2 weeks but I didnt eat well back then. Anyways, I've been rolling a while now since and last time was about 5 weeks ago. Im goin to a festival next week and contemplating rolling twice again once friday then once on sunday? Wanna know what people think, i've felt like mdma has affected me in the past but since adopting healthy life style changes the side effects have completely disappeared. Just worried about getting them again haha.

I went to a fest earlier in the summer and rolled twice. The first night was Thursday and it was amazing, ingested about 125 mg. I had a great LSD trip day 2, although my gf sketched out a bit and we both took .5 mg xanax which calmed me down too much. We doubled up the L on the third day and I had a pleasant experience, minus the fact that my girl felt like we got ripped off b/c she wasn't tripping as hard as she wanted... Anyways, on day 4 we rolled again (125 - 150 mg) and it was still pretty awesome, but then at about the 2 hour mark we redosed (50-75 mg) and it was probably too much as I was getting blurry vision and really chattery teeth. I also only remember the beginning of this night clearly, which is cool because Trey killed it and was having such a blast and I felt sooo good, albeit not quite as good as night 1.

The hangover wasn't terrible, but I slept for about 15 hours Monday - Tuesday maybe more before I could drive home, and I was pretty edgy for a week or so. I wouldn't contribute all of the hangover to mdma, mostly due sleeping less than 6 hours per night for four nights / dancing to exhaustion.

Overall: As fun as it was I think I would rather just wait until the last night to roll and have the best time of my weekend be the actual end. I also felt a bit tired for the rest of the weekend after rolling night 1, and I know my girl didn't have the energy she normally would, so we missed some shows I really wanted to see.

I'm going to a fest at the end of this month and I believe we'll only be rolling on the last night. Probably just take it easy night one and drink a little, maybe some K or something I dunno. It sucks because it looks like it will be the "danciest" of the nights, which I guess I don't need mdma to enjoy, but now I'm rambling.

What fest are you going to?

EDIT: I also eat really well before/after and take 5-HTP post-roll (maybe placebo effects? But I feel better). Usually keep at least 3-6 months between rolls, other than this situation.

EDIT #2: We also were bumping coke for the 12 hour car ride to the fest and then throughout the fest, with no real ill effects on any of the rolls. Shit was raw as I've had in a long time too.

 

[ScaredFirstTimer]

and what symptoms did you get?

Except for the entire anxiety aspect, dissociation and depression:

-HPPD
-Bruxism
-Insomnia
-BIG gastrointestinal problems
-Absolute dairy intolerance (I went from drinking milk every day for 26 years to not being able to even eat cheese. Still like this 9 months later)
-A variety of memory impairments - mild to severe
-A variety of cognitive impairments - mild to severe
-Impaired pronunciation of words and sentences
-Loss of impairment/increased spontaneity
-dizzyness, fainting sensations 24/7
-the list goes on and on etc.

I've recovered greatly from some of these in 9 months. Again, this is not listing the issues that is somewhat normal in anxiety disorders.

this is not neurotoxicity, it's psychological.

I'm baffled that someone who seem to know a little something about the brain is making a distinction like this between neurology and psychology.

 

[Clocktower]

Would once-a-month use of 2.5mg/kg MDMA have any noticeable damage after some time?

It depends on a lot of different things. For some no, for some yes.

 

[SilentRoller]

I'm baffled that someone who seem to know a little something about the brain is making a distinction like this between neurology and psychology.

No, it's basic science. MDMA releases a shit-load of serotonin amongst other things, and as we know, serotonin is important for regulating mood, appitite, sleep etc. Therefore, when you see people complaining about how they feel this, that or another after consuming MDMA, it is not unreasonable to assume that part of the issue could be related to an anxiety loop, fuelled by the lower levels of serotonin. Some people are just more sensitive to these changes than others, and sometimes realising that you feel "a bit different" after MDMA can freak some people out, and making them think they have somehow cooked themselves. An example of this would be the intense afterglow I got after the very first time of doing MDMA, where I felt significantly different for about a week afterwards (in a positive way), athough things like my vision were definitely altered for a bit. Looking back, it would of been easy for me to recognise these symptoms as "brain damage" and start freaking out, but I just accepted it, and everything was fine.

Having had ocassions in my life where I have absolutely smashed MDMA (500mg+ doses), I can tell you that whilst at points I thought I may of cooked myself, I eventually realised it was just internal anxiety created by having not a single drop of serotonin left, and I would recover in time. A week or so later, I was on the mend at back to my normal self (although I never did 500mg+ again).

My closing statement is this: I'm not saying MDMA is without risk - it certainly has the potential to fuck you up big time if you abuse it, and I feel that to a degree, the comedown afterwards is testament to this. However, I don't buy for a second those stories about people doing 200mg and then having an 8 month long term comedown (If what they got was actual MDMA). MDMA on the scale of things is amazingly safe, and I think people just need to leave their worries at the door, and just allow themselves to enjoy the experience, rather than worrying about shit that is unlikely to happen.


Peace

 

[HiManImDan]

No, it's basic science. MDMA releases a shit-load of serotonin amongst other things, and as we know, serotonin is important for regulating mood, appitite, sleep etc. Therefore, when you see people complaining about how they feel this, that or another after consuming MDMA, it is not unreasonable to assume that part of the issue could be related to an anxiety loop, fuelled by the lower levels of serotonin. Some people are just more sensitive to these changes than others, and sometimes realising that you feel "a bit different" after MDMA can freak some people out, and making them think they have somehow cooked themselves. An example of this would be the intense afterglow I got after the very first time of doing MDMA, where I felt significantly different for about a week afterwards (in a positive way), athough things like my vision were definitely altered for a bit. Looking back, it would of been easy for me to recognise these symptoms as "brain damage" and start freaking out, but I just accepted it, and everything was fine.

Having had ocassions in my life where I have absolutely smashed MDMA (500mg+ doses), I can tell you that whilst at points I thought I may of cooked myself, I eventually realised it was just internal anxiety created by having not a single drop of serotonin left, and I would recover in time. A week or so later, I was on the mend at back to my normal self (although I never did 500mg+ again).

My closing statement is this: I'm not saying MDMA is without risk - it certainly has the potential to fuck you up big time if you abuse it, and I feel that to a degree, the comedown afterwards is testament to this. However, I don't buy for a second those stories about people doing 200mg and then having an 8 month long term comedown (If what they got was actual MDMA). MDMA on the scale of things is amazingly safe, and I think people just need to leave their worries at the door, and just allow themselves to enjoy the experience, rather than worrying about shit that is unlikely to happen.


Peace

Very true!
Those long term comedowns, in my opinion, are only from excessive use (every day or every 1-3 days) or taking stupid doses like 1g. When I hear people say things like "I had 200mg of mdma 3 months ago and I still don't feel normal" is just a load of bullshit...

 

[Black]

Except for the entire anxiety aspect, dissociation and depression:

-HPPD
-Bruxism
-Insomnia
-BIG gastrointestinal problems
-Absolute dairy intolerance (I went from drinking milk every day for 26 years to not being able to even eat cheese. Still like this 9 months later)
-A variety of memory impairments - mild to severe
-A variety of cognitive impairments - mild to severe
-Impaired pronunciation of words and sentences
-Loss of impairment/increased spontaneity
-dizzyness, fainting sensations 24/7
-the list goes on and on etc.

I've recovered greatly from some of these in 9 months. Again, this is not listing the issues that is somewhat normal in anxiety disorders.



I'm baffled that someone who seem to know a little something about the brain is making a distinction like this between neurology and psychology.

-hppd is not a sign of neurotoxicity. hppd is a typical aftereffect of psychedelics (basically anything that binds to 5-HT2AR can cause it) most of which aren't neurotoxic at all.
-bruxism is often a result of anxiety (but all possible causes aren't necessarily clear by now. research rather points to hightened levels of dopamine than anything else)
-gastrointestinal problems can also have multiple causes (including anxiety and with the killing of brain cells being one of the most improbable ones), but it sure might be connected to your next point
-dairy intolerance: have you had a lactose intolerance test? i have multiple friends with lactose intolerance and for everyone of them the symptoms have come suddenly and often in stressful situations. you'll also find lactose in many products where you least expect it.
-the rest of the symptoms could be due to neurotoxicity (especially the cognitive and memory impairment), but still are also common for anxiety. the brain actually is a very resiliant organ. for symptoms to appear you have to kill not only a few but a great portion (of a specific population) of brain cells. when the symptoms of alcohol induced neurotoxicity start to appear, you can already see a visible reduction in brain mass in mri scans. if one dose of mdma can give you all these symptoms due to neurotoxicity, then taking mdma ten times would leave everyone as a zombie, which is just not what we see.
on the other hand a panic attack can mimic various conditions and even trained medical personnel often cannot tell the difference (without the proper diagnostic procedures). i've personally witnessed panic attacks that were just like a heart attack, an anaphylactic shock and serotonin syndrome. myself i've also had one that made me think that someone had spiked my drink with lsd (complete with the memory problems, totally fucked depth perception and visuals), just that it disappeared once i had completely calmed down.

but of course i might be wrong with my speculations of the probably causes of every single item on your list. we're on an internet forum after all.


i'm making the distinction between psychological issues and neurotoxicity, because the brain can do lots of differnt things including altering your consciousness and mental abilities in drastic ways without nerve cells having to die in the process.

anyway, whatever is the cause of your symptoms, i wish you a quick recovery.

Very true!
Those long term comedowns, in my opinion, are only from excessive use (every day or every 1-3 days) or taking stupid doses like 1g. When I hear people say things like "I had 200mg of mdma 3 months ago and I still don't feel normal" is just a load of bullshit...

no. mdma definitely makes you more prone to anxiety in the following days if you are susceptible to that and that can start a viscous circle that lasts for a long time until you learn to snap out of it.
and i didn't need to take more than two average (tested mdma) pills to get stuck in that loop for months.

 

[MindOverMatter1]

Believe what you guys want. It's easy for you to say that people are lying about 6 month + long comedowns when you haven't had first hand experience of one. We all react to chemicals differently. It just so happens that I had a bad reaction after a large 333mg. dose. I'd say what I am experiencing is far from the norm but to discount my own experience as an anxiety loop is incredibly naive.

 

[SilentRoller]

to discount my own experience as an anxiety loop is incredibly naive.

Again, no. It's not naive, I'm just stating opinions backed up by relatively sound science. I'm not saying you a wrong to feel what you are feeling, I just don't believe it it's MDMA's fault per say. People smashed MDMA every weekend in the 80's, and some continue to do so. I'm not saying MDMA can't trigger some terrible anxiety attacks in the days after if you over do it, I have experienced something similar myself. However, I was always back to normal the following week, as it was due to the low serontonin levels rather than "perma damage".

 

[Deltronpedro]

Very true!
Those long term comedowns, in my opinion, are only from excessive use (every day or every 1-3 days) or taking stupid doses like 1g. When I hear people say things like "I had 200mg of mdma 3 months ago and I still don't feel normal" is just a load of bullshit...

Well, just no!
I got 130 mg in a pill and it was the first time i rolled and now Im fucked up since over 2 months now. Got the LTC related symptoms and i can tell you that is the hell on earth.
"I had 130mg of mdma 2 months ago and I still don't feel normal"

 

[thejibberman]

no. mdma definitely makes you more prone to anxiety in the following days if you are susceptible to that and that can start a viscous circle that lasts for a long time until you learn to snap out of it.
and i didn't need to take more than two average (tested mdma) pills to get stuck in that loop for months.

I think this guy has hit the nail with the subject. People with the "LTC", a completely unofficial diagnosis of basically any bad symptom out there, are currently in an anxiety based loop. It seems I was susceptible to anxiety after I took my parachute, cause it's been almost 6 months and I'm not completely right (unfortunate lifestyle changes mostly). This isn't a comedown. A comedown is when you've used your entire serotonin from your MDMA and you get the harsh reality. We're all rejuvenated. Just extremely sensitive due to the panic we had on it.

 

[BlueBull]

^
Thing is, we don't know for sure. Everyone reacts differently to certain psychoactive chemicals so there's really no telling without solid scientific research in highly controlled circumstances. Brain damage isn't the only factor to consider, there's countless others. I am inclined to think some of these stories are indeed caused by anxiety but to say all of them are is a bit premature I think. I know people that have had weird long-lasting physical symptoms from consuming all kinds of different drugs, alcohol included, so who's to say the same isn't possible with MDMA? I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to form a well-founded theory about this and I think few of us actually are...

More on-topic: My personal belief is that moderate doses of MDMA do not produce noticeable brain damage but that MDMA can be neurotoxic under extreme circumstances. A study was quoted above that showed noticeable differences in 5-HT transporter density. As JWills already said there are other studies that contradict this. Also these studies were all done on volunteers that may or may not be poly-drug users, their drugs were dosed and administered by the users themselves and so on... too many unknowns to form solid evidence of neurotoxic damage I think. Below you can find a quote from a different study that found no indication of brain damage in rats injected with high and repeated doses of MDMA. This is just to provide some contrast and to point out that indeed the debate is still very ripe
3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) neurotoxicity in rats: a reappraisal of past and present findings - Michael H. Baumann, Xiaoying Wang, Richard B. Rothman

With regard to MDMA-induced neurotoxicity, it seems that 5-HT deficits are not always synonymous with axonal death because doses of MDMA which cause marked depletions of brain tissue 5-HT in rats (e.g., 10–20 mg/kg) are not associated with silver-positive staining, reactive gliosis, or loss of SERT protein. Like many other psychotropic drugs, MDMA is capable of producing bona fide neurotoxicity at sufficient doses (e.g., >25 mg/kg), and damage is not confined to 5-HT neurons

This means that while doses of 10-20mg/kg did cause significant depletion of 5-HT (serotonin) they did not consistently produce markers of neurotoxic damage/axonal death (silver-positive staining, reactive gliosis or loss of SERT). 10-20mg/kg is about 600-1200mg for a human being weighing 60 kg. What is very important to note also is that these studies were done on rats that were given repeated injections (so not orally which has a lower bioavailability) over multiple days

 

[thejibberman]

^
Thing is, we don't know for sure. Everyone reacts differently to certain psychoactive chemicals so there's really no telling without solid scientific research in highly controlled circumstances. Brain damage isn't the only factor to consider, there's countless others. I am inclined to think some of these stories are indeed caused by anxiety but to say all of them are is a bit premature I think. I know people that have had weird long-lasting physical symptoms from consuming all kinds of different drugs, alcohol included, so who's to say the same isn't possible with MDMA? I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to form a well-founded theory about this and I think few of us actually are...

More on-topic: My personal belief is that moderate doses of MDMA do not produce noticeable brain damage but that MDMA is certainly neurotoxic under the right circumstances. A study was quoted above that showed noticeable differences in 5-HT transporter density. As JWills already said there are other studies that contradict this. Also these studies were all done on volunteers that may or may not be poly-drug users, their drugs were dosed and administered by the users themselves and so on... too many unknowns to form solid evidence of neurotoxic damage I think. Below you can find a quote from a different study that found no indication of brain damage in rats injected with high and repeated doses of MDMA. This is just to provide some contrast and to point out that indeed the debate is still very ripe
3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) neurotoxicity in rats: a reappraisal of past and present findings - Michael H. Baumann, Xiaoying Wang, Richard B. Rothman

This means that while doses of 10-20mg/kg did cause significant depletion of 5-HT (serotonin) they did not consistently produce markers of neurotoxic damage/axonal death (silver-positive staining, reactive gliosis or loss of SERT). 10-20mg/kg is about 600-1200mg for a human being weighing 60 kg. What is very important to note also is that these studies were done on rats that were given repeated injections (so not orally which has a lower bioavailability) over multiple days

I'm not sure if it's just me, but actually reading all that makes me anxious. So if I freaked myself out from a bit of MDMA, then looked it up, and read all these numbers and scientific terminology that basically concludes to brain damage, I'd probably be way worse.

 

[BlueBull]

I'm not sure if it's just me, but actually reading all that makes me anxious. So if I freaked myself out from a bit of MDMA, then looked it up, and read all these numbers and scientific terminology that basically concludes to brain damage, I'd probably be way worse.

I think you misunderstood the conclusion of the study. What it actually says is that even at extremely high doses given in repeated injections MDMA did not consistently produce signs/markers of neurotoxic damage/axonal death in rats. If this is true for humans as well, I would dare to conclude that moderate doses with long enough breaks are not likely to produce significant neurotoxicity or brain damage, if at all.

However other studies contradict this. I think the study I quoted above is one of the ones that are most reliable, as they at least tried to control some factors. The study quoted at the start of the thread that did find signs of neurotoxic damage has much less control measures in place I think, leaving the results open to a lot of unwanted influencing factors. I am a layman though so this is just personal interpretation. The short answer is that so far nobody knows for sure as no meticulously controlled human trials have been done yet. I have great hopes for the trials they are doing at the moment to use MDMA in a therapeutic setting for PTSD, as finally research will be done into the pharmacological properties of MDMA, the therapeutical properties and the short/long term consequences

 

[Black]

I think this guy has hit the nail with the subject. People with the "LTC", a completely unofficial diagnosis of basically any bad symptom out there, are currently in an anxiety based loop. It seems I was susceptible to anxiety after I took my parachute, cause it's been almost 6 months and I'm not completely right (unfortunate lifestyle changes mostly). This isn't a comedown. A comedown is when you've used your entire serotonin from your MDMA and you get the harsh reality. We're all rejuvenated. Just extremely sensitive due to the panic we had on it.

i'm not saying that everyone with "LTC" suffers from anxiety. it's just one plausible explanation and certainly the case for myself. what i'm really trying to say is that if one is feeling bad after mdma, then does not mean that mdma has killed brain cells.

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) neurotoxicity in rats: a reappraisal of past and present findings - Michael H. Baumann, Xiaoying Wang, Richard B. Rothman

i haven't seen that one before. thanks for the link. very comprehensive paper and definitely worth a read. it summarises most of the info we have about neurotoxicity and many of the fallacies of previous research nicely.

it also brings up an interesting point that i've totally forgotten about in this discussion: tryptophan hydroxylase inhibition by mdma is another explaination for the long term problems of some users (and apparantly last a lot longer than previously known and longer than i had thought possible; "begins within 1 week and lasts for months").

 

[MissFormaldehyde]

Very true!
Those long term comedowns, in my opinion, are only from excessive use (every day or every 1-3 days) or taking stupid doses like 1g. When I hear people say things like "I had 200mg of mdma 3 months ago and I still don't feel normal" is just a load of bullshit...

Agreed 100%.

 

[PJ2]

The level of ignorance in this thread is scary. People are confirming anecdotally that MDMA does have neurotoxic effects that last months to sometimes years. This is not some anxiety attack gone wild. The symptoms are all very similar and the recovery time is very lengthy. Just because some of you may have escaped these effects doesn't make MDMA "safe." It is far from it. So, consume at your own risk and hopefully you won't discover what the neurotoxicity feels like because I guarantee you won't be saying it is anxiety related. You'd think - what the fuck did I just do to my brain!?!

 

[JWills20]

People are confirming anecdotally that MDMA does have neurotoxic effects

You know that you can't confirm the death of neurons with anecdotes? When does suffering from anxiety, which you perceive to be caused by MDMA, ever convincingly prove that MDMA has destroyed your serotonin neurons through toxicity? People who have taken no MDMA in their lives, with no neuron damage at all, suffer from anxiety/depression all over the world. Neurotoxicity is a matter of science, not subjective experience.

The level of ignorance in this thread is scary

Indeed.

 

[lovelife1]

JWills what has been your worst ever experience with MDMA if I can ask?

Edit: Hopefully you didnt have any, I am just curios to see where youre coming from

 

[JWills20]

JWills what has been your worst ever experience with MDMA if I can ask?

Ermm, there's been two times I've accidentally taken really high doses with alcohol. Chewed and sweated my face off while basically unable to move. One of those times I had conversations with my friends in my head while trying to sleep. Never experienced anything negative afterwards though, they were both just fucked up experiences. Majority of my experiences have been positive. But positive/negative experiences can't tell you anything about neurotoxicity...