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[Debate] What is ego-death?

I just read a few posts bordering on personal insults... let's chill out, it's just a discussion, though perhaps a bit frustrating.

Is there any other example where this might happen? Where you do something a thousand times and it's the same and then one time it's completely different? I can't think of any.

I've read reports on Erowid of people who have, for example, tripped many times for a large portion of their younger life, didn't for a long while, grew and changed, and then did again and had an "ego-death" type of experience. Just an example.

Ismene said:
No, no, back up a minute will. Don't try and make out I'm saying every trip has to be exactly the same in every emotional regard. Trips have a vast range of effects - but they don't have the effect of not knowing you have taken a drug.

I have had the experience of not knowing I had taken a drug on three occasions, while on the drug, most recently with ibogaine (though I wouldn't say that was an ego death, it was like dreaming). The other two were though.
 
That's something I could never experience X, I've always been aware I've taken a drug when I'm tripping. It just could not happen to me.

So you were just sat there tripping and unaware that it was the result of a drug?
 
I'm surprised nobody has linked to the “What is enlightenment” thread in P&S since that thread both overlaps themes covered in this thread and includes links to a lecture that implies there could be operational definitions for some of the terms being discussed here.

Todd Murphy -- an apprentice of Dr. Micheal Persinger, who famously used transmagnetic stimulation to create the "God Helmet" and reproduced spiritual experiences in the laboratory -- hypothesizes that the moment of "enlightenment" occurs when a surge of activity in the right amygdala, which is often experienced as shock or terror, suddenly shifts to the left amygdala across the anterior commissure and is inhibited from crossing back over to the right. I think it's plausible that psychedelic ego death is a chemically mediated reproduction of activity patterns in the brain that lifelong meditators achieve semi-permanently through rigorous conditioning upon the moment of their "enlightenment."

There's a number of different "breakthrough" psychedelic experiences, where a sudden qualitative shift is experienced in consciousness, but in the case of "ego death," which I believe is a highly distinct species of such breakthrough experiences, we might be able to wrangle in the debate by entertaining the idea that Murphy's hypothesis is essentially correct. If indeed psychedelics sometimes cause this dramatic shift in activity in the amygdala, which is a very old and fundamental brain structure, it would correlate nicely with some users' reports of ego death that indicate sudden and dramatic qualitative shifts in their sense of self. I've personally experienced "ego death" four times, and each time was preceded by an electrical jolt and accompanying buzzing noises and sensations. At 1:08:30 in the video Murphy responds to an audience member's question about whether there's "humming, buzzing, and vibrating" with regard to the moment of this shift, and he states he thinks it's very possible there could be because the sudden chaotic shift in bioelectric activity might plausibly result in a spilling over of charge into a proximal brain structure called the caudate nucleus, which is implicated in our experience of somatic sensations like vibrations. There are are also projections from the auditory cortex to the caudate nucleous that could serve as a bridge for a further spill over of electrical activity into aural hallucinations, which might help explain why I heard the buzzing noises, too.

In any event it's at least possible to test such a hypothesis with fMRI. We could actually look at the feedback and confirm whether or not these events are occurring in the brains of those who experience psychedelic ego death ... theoretically.

 
That's something I could never experience X, I've always been aware I've taken a drug when I'm tripping. It just could not happen to me.

So you were just sat there tripping and unaware that it was the result of a drug?

Yes, I didn't even know I was me, I just knew what was happening, not why or how I got there. I obviously had awareness, but it wasn't awareness of reality.
 
Come again? How can you know you have taken a drug when you have no concept of self?

You could equally ask: - How could you think you were dead if you have no concept of self?

Ego death does not necessarily involve "losing your concept of self", the central aspect of the ego death experience is thinking the thought that "I am dead", mental self-termination, your memories and your "concept of self" remain intact in ego death, but it feels as if you have now died, ie reached the end of your period of "being a person"


Are you ever going to state which dose you get ego-death from?

Ive already addressed this, it is a sensenless question for several reasons, firstly because with drugs like mushrooms and especially LSD, you never really know the dosage accurately, different LSD tabs and different batches of mushrooms contain different doses. So for that reason it is meaningless to talk of what dosage you are taking, the significant issue is not the dosage, but rather the degree of intensity of the psychedelic effect, ego death is the most intense psychedelic experience. As a rough guide, per Mckenna, 5 grams of dried cubensis mushrooms would be a sufficient dose for most people to experience ego death, if set and setting are sufficiently conducive for ego death. Also it is possible to overshoot the dosage and have an experience so strong that it cannot be remembered and so is pointless

Also, different people have different sensitivities to different drugs, some lucky people can trip really hard on relatively small doses, whereas some unfortunate people find it difficult to trip hard at all even on relatively large doses.

Most importantly, dosage isnt the only factor that determines the outcome of a trip session, you seem to think that a certain dosage guarantees an ego death experience, but that is definitely not the case. Per Leary, the set and setting also have a major influence on how the trip is experienced.
 
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How you could think you were dead is looking back on the experience.

Your one man definition of ego death fails to capture the real meaning.

It is like defining SCUBA DIVING as being under water.

The assertion that you would not know, at the time of EGO DEATH, that you were on drugs works just fine.
 
"Feeling as though you are dead" is just that...YOU ("I") feel it, so technically, your sense of self is still intact...ergo NOT ego-death!


In ego death you can remember what it was like to be a self existing in time, but that sense of separate selfhood has now reached the end of its timeline the point of its (ego) death, so its entire existence has become a memory. Ie in ego death you can remember what it was like to be alive, from the perspective/point-of-view of being dead (non-existent), that is the basic essential feeling of the ego death experience, - the ego death initiate takes drugs and then experiences his own death (the end of his existence)


Death = the *end* of life
 
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That's something I could never experience X, I've always been aware I've taken a drug when I'm tripping. It just could not happen to me.

So you were just sat there tripping and unaware that it was the result of a drug?

Again, I insist you take salvia! :D

Seriously though, that is one of the primary effects of salvia. You experience this utter madness and simply cannot remember that you've taken a drug. I'm too scared to take salvia though nowadays- it is just so unpleasant. But it could happen to YOU if you take it...:)
 
In ego death you can remember what it was like to be a self existing in time, but that sense of separate selfhood has now reached the end of its timeline the point of its (ego) death, so its entire existence has become a memory. Ie in ego death you can remember what it was like to be alive, from the perspective/point-of-view of being dead (non-existent), that is the basic essential feeling of the ego death experience, - the ego death initiate takes drugs and then experiences his own death (the end of his existence)


Death = the *end* of life
And thus your whole experience becomes in that moment only experiencing the ego with no external element for the ego to say, "This is what I am and this is what I am not."

The ego envelopes the couch, the frying pan, the people around you. It is nothing more than a revelation of our nature. This is a fact we can logically ascertain, that the world we experience is nothing more than as we create it and this is in the only way we experience, we sense reality with outward facing organs that send signals to the brain which it then rematerializes. We are connected to external reality and we are at the save time, reality itself.

What we "see" is merely two points within our eye, reality is created by the complex sending of reflected packets of light. You don't see the couch, you feel it hit your retina.

When the normal mind is compromised we are alone with ourselves; immersed in our ego, we become "everything". Our concept of "universe" can be no bigger than the limits of our perception and that perception is limited to one thing.

The ego is a term that exists as a concept, not an object in our scope of reality. There is no litmus test to determine the state if the ego or an ego pulse and blood pressure to see if it is dead. You cannot pluck it up with a pair of tweezers. The only way to know it is (gone) or not is to ask yourself, "was I there for that particular experience, ie NOT as in sleep or coma?"

If your answer is yes, ding ding ding, you had an ego. This does not mean you had an environment or words to speak or memory to recollect or any of the things we associate with ourselves, like fingers and toes, ego and experience can never be separated; it is the definition of ego. Whatever it is.

There are plenty of times in normal everyday experience where you are day dreaming and your (sense of being where you are physically in reality) is totally gone. The ego is missing class, the ego is not (missing). When you dream that you are someone else, for example, you might say, "I was not myself."

The self (your body) is not the ego, they do not share the same boundary. In Latin or Greek is ego, and in German ich. The ego death, loss of I, does not fit with this philosophical concept or the psychoanalytical concept either.

This is why the term ego death is just a crappy uneducated blithering phrase that fails to generate real meaning. Choose a word that describes what is going on. It is that simple. Don't force meaning onto words, apply words that describe what you experience.
 
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I'll give the salvia a miss if you don't mind will - sounds like a fucking nightmare :D

I have tried Dan Sieberts "extraordinary potion of enchantment" but that was nothing to write home to momma about.
 
In ego death you can remember what it was like to be a self existing in time, but that sense of separate selfhood has now reached the end of its timeline the point of its (ego) death, so its entire existence has become a memory. Ie in ego death you can remember what it was like to be alive, from the perspective/point-of-view of being dead (non-existent), that is the basic essential feeling of the ego death experience, - the ego death initiate takes drugs and then experiences his own death (the end of his existence)


Death = the *end* of life

Yes, this has been my experience with most of my experiences of this sort.
 
Yes, this has been my experience with most of my experiences of this sort.
My brief response to this is the ego is not the self, ego is the I that experiences the self or loss of self.

The experience I can agree on, not the term, it must be killed off. I feel very strongly that we need to generalize these experiences into a unifying and descriptive term.
 
When I say ego, I mean the human sense of self, what you describe is what I think of as consciousness, the experiencer. Xorkoth is my ego (my human personality). I think that's what most people usually mean in this context.
 
No. I am using the term ego correctly.

Look at it this way. The furthest you can possibly strip down any experience is to the ego.

I experienced nothing.
 
How can you remember what happened if your sense of self is dead? Surely your memory is a part of your self and therefore still alive.
 
I would say that "self-dissolution" is the more apt term here. Perhaps I'll start using that....

Memory is not a function of the self IMO. The self is the central point that receives information and judges/reacts according to arbitrarily set values (which could be defined further as our 'personality'). During an ego-loss/self-dissolution episode, the input remains but the reactor/experiencer/judger is repressed or appears to be not present. Hence we can form memories but they may feel extremely foreign and even unsettling upon sober reflection.

As an example; I can recall the major parts of a salvia experience, but it is akin to recalling a dream- it doesn't have much meaning as it is foreign to the point of being nonsensical. Thus it could be argued that these experiences have little value, though I treasure their outright weirdness in a 'who would have though' kinda way.

I'd also say that this self-dissolution doesn't mean complete loss of self, but follows a sine-wave like oscillation between more and less integration with the normal self.

This thread is a quintessential semantic internet discussion that doesn't seem to have progressed much in the last 8-9 pages, so I think I'm gonna give up- unless Ismene lays out one of his provocative statements that just demands I challenge it (futilely) :D
 
How can you remember what happened if your sense of self is dead? Surely your memory is a part of your self and therefore still alive.

During ego death you experience yourself dying and then being dead, so that the life that you previously had lived has now become just a memory. Your memory of your previous life remains intact during ego death, but you are no longer living that life because you have now died. Ego death is not the same thing as total amnesia, this is why people are typically able to fully remember and describe their ego death experience after it happens. If ego death was totally amnesic there would be no ego death trip reports, but as erowid clearly shows (and also bluelight and many other psychedelic websites), there are many verbal descriptions of ego death experience.
 
When I say ego, I mean the human sense of self, what you describe is what I think of as consciousness, the experiencer.


In the context of psychedelic ego death, the following terms are precisely synonymous with each other:

Ego/self/person/I/me/thinker/personal controller/personal subject/sense of self/feeling of personal continuity/time voyaging control agent/free-will agent/sense of self-identity/sense of separate identity/continuant identity/sense of personal separateness etc etc etc

There is no specific, meaningful, clearly definable difference between any of these ^ terms for the purpose of this discussion, they all point to exactly the same thing, although the term "ego" is by far the most commonly used in discussions about the psychedelic death and rebirth experience.

the relevant sense of "ego" in the context of "ego death" is given by the Oxford dictionary as: - "a conscious thinking subject" (from - www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ego)

ego is different from pure consciousness or pure experience, because experience remains even after ego has dissolved in ego death, which is why people can experience (be conscious of) the ego death experience
 
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If ego death was totally amnesic there would be no ego death trip reports, but as erowid clearly shows (and also bluelight and many other psychedelic websites), there are many verbal descriptions of ego death experience.

Perhaps that means there are no ego-deaths happening at all and people are simply using the term to describe any intense psychedelic experience.
 
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