EADD Theology Megathread - Book II - Exodus

[Sammy G]

Crackhead was only asking that question in order to make a point about certain OT values (hatred of gays) having been retained whilst others were cast aside. In order to demonstrate that it's a bit strange for you to still believe the parts about the gays.

 

[Vurtual]

Raas: Above, you seemed to quote contradictory bits of the new testament to prove your point:

'by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace'

'Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished'

If this was done in the spirit of deliberate paradox (like a koan or a nasrudin story) then fair enough, but it just seems to be two bits of the new testament with differing views on the jewish heritage of their religion - as we already know the gospels were each aimed at different audiences (eg matthew the anit-semitic one? - ask rickolas).

And the New Tetsament is in no way immune to idiocy - isn't there plenty of anti gay stuff in the NT anyway? (i call that idiocy)

As to your views on gays, is it not something that you can immediately state at least in basic terms? If it isn't, doesn't it seem like an artificial doctrine-based opinion rather than a fundamental principle that you can feel with your heart. I'll go along with any part of the bible that, when i consider it, feels right in my 'heart' - anything that doesn't i'm not going to start believing it just because it's in some ancient mis-translated book from a totally different culture than mine, just because some authority figure told me to (whether roman or not).

I prefer a more direct or practical/mystical type of religion which encourages you to find your own relationship with god, without any authority figure getting in the way (eg quakers, ranters, sufis, buddhists etc)

If there was a jesus worthy of all the worship he gets, he surely would tell you to question authority with your god-given reason (including the bible), and feel what's right in your heart/intuition?

Edit: and be wary dissing the pharisees, because (as i've pointed out before) some of jesus' best lines come directly from the pharisee tradition (Rabbi Hillel specifically); they also did their own sort of torah interpretation - Hillel: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." The hate on the pharisees in the NT is probably partially anti-semitic in origin (to please greek/roman audiences)

 

[rickolasnice]

as we already know the gospels were each aimed at different audiences (eg matthew the anit-semitic one? - ask rickolas

Without me looking back through my notes I believe it was John that was more anti-semetic.. referring to Jewish peoples as "The Jews" and (if i remember correctly) continuously saying how they are blind / stupid for not believing Jesus was the messiah (.. but there is a lot of Antisemetism in the New Testament.

Ah.. here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_and_the_New_Testament

raas.. where does it mention homosexuals in the NT, again?

 

[Vurtual]

Thanks dude. As for anti-gay-NT, I had a quick google and saw this http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/homont.html I didn't read it carefully or check in the bible though (but sounds a bit vague in the first quote)...

 

[Raasyvibe]

evey you forgot to quote this bit in my post:

*tongue firmly in cheek "

It's called hyperbolising. Religion has a bit of a rep' for being homophobic, and I'm playing on that. Sure most readers can see this.

I've a lot to say, in seriousness, towards Christianity and homosexuality...

Just waiting for an opportunity where I have more time to address it properly. Give me a day or 2... been a long week

 

[parttime crackhead]

Raas, you believe the bible's homophobic stance though. You might have your tongue in your cheek with the words you are using, but not with the belief that being gay = bad.

 

[Eveleivibe]

evey you forgot to quote this bit in my post:




It's called hyperbolising. Religion has a bit of a rep' for being homophobic, and I'm playing on that. Sure most readers can see this.

I've a lot to say, in seriousness, towards Christianity and homosexuality...

Just waiting for an opportunity where I have more time to address it properly. Give me a day or 2... been a long week

Kindly don't try and patronise me, raas. I may be your friend but I'm still going to tick You off if you deserve it. You used religion many times on this sub-forum to be offensive to homosexual people n it's not on, considering I've a friend on here who is. You can be a bit manipulative at times with your words.
Most others can see this too.

Evey

 

[rickolasnice]

lol raas you are such a hypocrite..

John 8:7 raas.. John 8:7..

Are you without sin, raas?

Matthew 7:1 ya judgey coont.

I'll address that link you posted later Vurtual.. but for now.. Night night

 

[Eveleivibe]

I despise people who use religion as a way of delivering stereotypical responses.
There's nothing wrong with homosexuality. I think I may be bi and have fancied a few women in my time, though I've never done anything. Does that make me a sinner then?
People cannot help what they are, can they. They are born that way.
So what does that say about sin if they are born a certain way? How can one commit sin from the womb (that probably has not come out how I meant it, oh well).

Evey

 

[ColtDan]

Thats probably the best thing you've ever written

 

[curious_24]

You used religion many times on this sub-forum to be offensive to homophobic people n it's not on, considering I've a friend on here who is.

I think you meant homosexual there.

 

[Eveleivibe]

I think you meant homosexual there.

Yes I did, Curious, thanks for that. Bloody ell it's 12 midnight n I was going to go to bed early as tired as hell.

Thats probably the best thing you've ever written

Thanks Dan... I think LoL!

Evey

 

[Raasyvibe]

As a number of previous posts have questioned homosexuality and the church, I've spent considerable time explaining the Christian response according to it's scripture.

CHRISTIANITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY

A textbook Christian response rather than a subjective opinion.


Do Christians oppose homosexuality? Is it homophobic?
Do Christians despise people for being gay?
Why is it ok for a man to love a woman, but not for a man to love another man?
Gay relationships are just as ethical as straight relationships, why does Christianity therefore oppose them?
How should Christians treat gay people?
Why is it ok to have heterosexual relationships but not gay relationships?



I hope to shed light on these questions. I will put aside my own opinion and focus soley on what the Bible has to say and how best to interpret it and then how that dictates a Christian attitude towards homosexuality.

________________________________________________________________________

First off, let's see what the Bible says:

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

As explained above, in the Old testament God starting working through a group of people who were synonymously brutal and barbaric in way of life.

It must be emphasized that, according to the New Testament, we are no longer under the harsh Old Testament Law (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21). The concern with punishment is now secondary to Jesus' message of repentance and redemption.



But the question remains. IS homosexuality wrong, or is this a silly ceremonial rule of the OT not to be taken seriously?

The answer lies within the Jesus inspired NT... and again and again the bible speaks AGAINST homosexuality and never for it. I'm sorry for the "gay Christian churches" also, they're living a lie. Trying to reconcile something that is incompatible with the church. Christian scripture candidly opposes homosexuality. You can't interpret it any other way.

8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. 9 This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, 10 fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching [/I]

Homosexuality is clearly a no no, and if you believe the bible is the word of God, you should not participate in a gay relationship.

____________________


Now, you may come to the conclusion that according to the bible HETEROSEXUAL relationships are the way forward, and if you have a partner of the opposite sex you are doing fine, unlike the homosexuals? After all, Jesus was bequeathed to a heterosexual couple.











WRONG...







Let's look at that verse again...

" for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, 10 fornicators, sodomites,"

"fornicators"? Why hang on, that's surely referring to HETEROSEXUAL desires...




And Jesus himself, speaks out further on "lustful" heterosexual desires:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart


In fact ANY Sexual desire outside marriage is deemed wrong. (1 Corinthians 7:1)

Many religious folk in the past have tried to get around this by having multiple wives, but scripture candidly emphasises Christianity and the way of God is MONOGAMOUS (one partner)


"The clearest evidence that monogamy is God’s ideal is from Christ’s teaching on marriage in Matt. 19:3–6. In this passage, He cited the Genesis creation account, in particular Gen. 1:27 and 2:24, saying ‘the two will become one flesh’, not more than two"


So really, what is taught is that you have sexual activity with ONE PERSON ONLY in your lifetime and all activity outside this one relationship is deemed wrong. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, pomosexual, autosexual. Christianity attacks animalistic physical sexual desire as a WHOLE and does not discriminate against either inclination.

____________


OK so you're allowed ONE lover only, the rest are sinful. Seems a bit restrictive and silly!?

And here we introduce the concept of a SPIRITUALITY... we factor in the idea of a SOUL MATE

or love in an INTENDED WAY


This now leads way for many surmises over which attractions are genuine, or true spiritual connections. And which are transient, or false passions born from our own sin and ignorance.

proverbs 3:5:6
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight”



___________________________________



How should Christians deal with homosexual or other sexual sinners?


Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins

RELAX! No-one on the planet is considered without sin. if you develop sexual desires (gay or straight) there's nothing wrong with you, you're just like EVERYONE ELSE (apart from ol' goody 2 shoes Jesus).

Also consider this verse
Genesis 1:27
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 2

ALL humans are created in the IMAGE of God and should be treated as such. There is no exclusivity between someone with homosexual desires or anyone else.




We now know those who participate in most active heterosexual relationships are no better than homosexuals. So, if we look at how jesus treated a heterosexual sinner, it gives us an idea of how to deal with the similar considered homosexual sinners:

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,”Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Jesus treated her with forgiveness and peace, and this is an example and attitude Christians should have towards homosexuals.




_________________

SPIRITUAL abusers pervert the message to serve their agendas of hate:

but do not CONFUSE these spiritual abusers, with the loving, peaceful message that Christ gave us.

________________________________________________________
Youtube Avril lavigne Interval break https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqajUg85Ax4
(I learnt this trick from foolsgold)
___________________________________________________________





There is an intended way, a utopic ideal; where people love each other. Boys as brothers, girls as sisters. And true love is reserved for one special soul mate. And the basis for this love is CARE. A selfless desire... and it's significance is that it can supposedly surpass expected evolutionally based animalistic desires.


And I guess this is what Christianity is about, is superseding our animal heritage (I wanna fuck lot's of hotties)... and finding our true spiritualty. Free ourselves of ignorance and find our true love.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Do you have to keep going on about it when there are homosexual people on this sub-forum who may find this offensive? Maybe you should ask them first as really it's disrespectful. As PTCH said in an earlier post, there are other things Christians were opposed to. Why continue this, knowing it is annoying and getting people's back up when you could move on to something else that may not do that in such an extremely way?

If anyone thinks I'm wrong with this argument, please feel free to say so and I'll be quiet :D

Evey

 

[bummer]

"So really, what is taught is that you have sexual activity with ONE PERSON ONLY in your lifetime and all activity outside this one relationship is deemed wrong. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, pomosexual, autosexual. Christianity attacks animalistic physical sexual desire as a WHOLE and does not discriminate against either inclination. "

How is that offensive. ? Was an interesting read. If people are that easily offended they should avoid the politics and religion on the internet

 

[Eveleivibe]

The fact that raas has continuously been using Christianity throughout EADD for months to target homosexuality is offensive.
And he hasn't just done it on these pages.

Evey

 

[bummer]

At what point did i insult you ?

"If anyone thinks I'm wrong with this argument, please feel free to say so"

 

[Eveleivibe]

At what point did i insult you ?

"If anyone thinks I'm wrong with this argument, please feel free to say so"

Point taken. My Apologies xxxx

Evey

 

[bummer]

if only you could edit my posts too ay ?

 

[parttime crackhead]

As a number of previous posts have questioned homosexuality and the church, I've spent considerable time explaining the Christian response according to it's scripture.

CHRISTIANITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY

A textbook Christian response rather than a subjective opinion.


Do Christians oppose homosexuality? Is it homophobic?
Do Christians despise people for being gay?
Why is it ok for a man to love a woman, but not for a man to love another man?
Gay relationships are just as ethical as straight relationships, why does Christianity therefore oppose them?
How should Christians treat gay people?
Why is it ok to have heterosexual relationships but not gay relationships?



I hope to shed light on these questions. I will put aside my own opinion and focus soley on what the Bible has to say and how best to interpret it and then how that dictates a Christian attitude towards homosexuality.

________________________________________________________________________

First off, let's see what the Bible says:




As explained above, in the Old testament God starting working through a group of people who were synonymously brutal and barbaric in way of life.

It must be emphasized that, according to the New Testament, we are no longer under the harsh Old Testament Law (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21). The concern with punishment is now secondary to Jesus' message of repentance and redemption.



But the question remains. IS homosexuality wrong, or is this a silly ceremonial rule of the OT not to be taken seriously?

The answer lies within the Jesus inspired NT... and again and again the bible speaks AGAINST homosexuality and never for it. I'm sorry for the "gay Christian churches" also, they're living a lie. Trying to reconcile something that is incompatible with the church. Christian scripture candidly opposes homosexuality. You can't interpret it any other way.






Homosexuality is clearly a no no, and if you believe the bible is the word of God, you should not participate in a gay relationship.

____________________


Now, you may come to the conclusion that according to the bible HETEROSEXUAL relationships are the way forward, and if you have a partner of the opposite sex you are doing fine, unlike the homosexuals? After all, Jesus was bequeathed to a heterosexual couple.











WRONG...







Let's look at that verse again...






"fornicators"? Why hang on, that's surely referring to HETEROSEXUAL desires...




And Jesus himself, speaks out further on "lustful" heterosexual desires:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart


In fact ANY Sexual desire outside marriage is deemed wrong. (1 Corinthians 7:1)

Many religious folk in the past have tried to get around this by having multiple wives, but scripture candidly emphasises Christianity and the way of God is MONOGAMOUS (one partner)


"The clearest evidence that monogamy is God’s ideal is from Christ’s teaching on marriage in Matt. 19:3–6. In this passage, He cited the Genesis creation account, in particular Gen. 1:27 and 2:24, saying ‘the two will become one flesh’, not more than two"


So really, what is taught is that you have sexual activity with ONE PERSON ONLY in your lifetime and all activity outside this one relationship is deemed wrong. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, pomosexual, autosexual. Christianity attacks animalistic physical sexual desire as a WHOLE and does not discriminate against either inclination.

____________


OK so you're allowed ONE lover only, the rest are sinful. Seems a bit restrictive and silly!?

And here we introduce the concept of a SPIRITUALITY... we factor in the idea of a SOUL MATE

or love in an INTENDED WAY


This now leads way for many surmises over which attractions are genuine, or true spiritual connections. And which are transient, or false passions born from our own sin and ignorance.

proverbs 3:5:6
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight”



___________________________________



How should Christians deal with homosexual or other sexual sinners?


Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins

RELAX! No-one on the planet is considered without sin. if you develop sexual desires (gay or straight) there's nothing wrong with you, you're just like EVERYONE ELSE (apart from ol' goody 2 shoes Jesus).

Also consider this verse
Genesis 1:27
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 2

ALL humans are created in the IMAGE of God and should be treated as such. There is no exclusivity between someone with homosexual desires or anyone else.




We now know those who participate in most active heterosexual relationships are no better than homosexuals. So, if we look at how jesus treated a heterosexual sinner, it gives us an idea of how to deal with the similar considered homosexual sinners:



Jesus treated her with forgiveness and peace, and this is an example and attitude Christians should have towards homosexuals.




_________________

SPIRITUAL abusers pervert the message to serve their agendas of hate:

but do not CONFUSE these spiritual abusers, with the loving, peaceful message that Christ gave us.

________________________________________________________
Youtube Avril lavigne Interval break https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqajUg85Ax4
(I learnt this trick from foolsgold)
___________________________________________________________





There is an intended way, a utopic ideal; where people love each other. Boys as brothers, girls as sisters. And true love is reserved for one special soul mate. And the basis for this love is CARE. A selfless desire... and it's significance is that it can supposedly surpass expected evolutionally based animalistic desires.


And I guess this is what Christianity is about, is superseding our animal heritage (I wanna fuck lot's of hotties)... and finding our true spiritualty. Free ourselves of ignorance and find our true love.

Okay. So the bible hates the gays. If I was a "believer", if I was rocking out to Christianity like yourself, that would be the point where I said "Fuck this" as it doesn't agree with what I know to be true in my heart/head. To think that the way someone is born makes them a sinner (ie, a bad person)? Or that the simple act of shagging (one of the most natural things going) also makes you a bad person? My own morality tells me that is wrong. So at that point I would part ways with my religion. Of course, plenty of stupid people would follow regardless.

My thoughts would go something like "I still believe in god, I believe that he is an all loving god, so I think something must have got lost in translation, or someone got it wrong when they were writing this book, because my all loving god could never back that. So I'll still believe, I'll still pray, but I'll find my own way, because this Christianity isn't for me, it's not what it claims to be"

This quote, attributed to Buddha, should be central to all religions. It would certainly be central to mine.

Believe nothing no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense.

So, seeing as you are a fairly recent convert to your religion, did you think homosexuality was wrong beforehand and your religion has just affirmed this belief, or did you think it was fine and now you don't because your religion told you so?