• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist

What do you consider to be, 'clean and sober'?

I'm pretty sure there's already a poll for this somewhere

I count anything as long as you are not using street drugs or alcohol. Medication, suboxone/methadone maintenance (as long as used responsibly and not being abused. I'm not sure how I feel about indefinite/life long use). Tobacco is fine too.

Sober however, I might define as closer to absolutely nothing, no maintenance. Some medications are okay, no sleeping pills, benzos, etc etc
 
I've always hated the word "clean" because it implies that the opposite, "dirty", applies when you are using and I think this feeds into stereotypes. Still, I know many people don't share my sensitivity towards language.

I think that the way ATLL765 put it is perfect: "Success in recovery, to me, means eliminating the issues that your drug use causes, not necessarily cutting all drug use out of your life. "
For many people that will mean abstinence and for many people it will not. That's one of my favorite things about Smart Recovery is that it allows for individual approaches and recognizes there is no one-size-fits-all for addiction or substance abuse.
 
Do you think that's a useful word in helping people recover from addiction? Interested in hearing people's points of view on this.

Interesting topic, Owen, I was considering creating a thread very similar in EADD.

Some people don't like the word "clean," because they feel that it implies that what they were doing, taking drugs, was dirty - and not everyone who had an addiction to one particular substance believes / wants to go the whole abstinence from all mind-altering substances route. Some people believe that you are "clean," if they give up their own drug of choice (DoC) and continuing to use others substances still makes them "clean," because they've remained abstinent from their DoC. Whereas other people believe that if a person is still using other substances, then they cannot be "clean." It would be interesting to look at the idea of people assuming that the word "clean" implies that drug-use was somehow dirty. Are people suggesting that or that the "addiction," was dirty, not in a stigmatising way - but more in a way as it eats away at the person slowly - at their mind, destroying things that matter to them, bit by bit, like the family, friends, relationships, career, health and so forth. So, in this respect the person becoming "clean" isn't an offense, an insult - but moreso a compliment - a form of achievement in that the person has overcome the battle of their life - against the enemy, against that one thing that is seducing them, luring them in and spitting them out - time and time again.

Another interesting question would thus have to be;

Are sobriety and being "clean" the same thing? Which is the more appropriate word to use and why. If one of these words are considered inappropriate, are people being over-sensitive or are we considering / respecting other people's values, needs, feelings or whatever.

Just my two pennies worth. OK I will stop rambling now.

Evey
 
I'd define it somewhere along the lines of self-medicating to avoid problems verses using drugs only to better yourself (spiritually, grounding you, fostering creativity, etc).

I've been off heroin for 9 months. A month ago when I did various Rx pills for a couple days was nothing but self-medicating and awakening old behaviour. I messed up at work, didn't sleep well, diet/exercise slipped. That's not "clean" living at all.

But I've started smoking weed again and it actually helps me. It keeps me grounded and connected to nature, my senses and the other stuff that really matters. But I also can control it (don't smoke before work), whereas some others I don't think can.

But ya, in general I don't think people should obsess over this topic, as it just makes relapses way worse when they do happen due to guilt/shame over breaking some sober streak.
 
For me clean means I am not out of control and my life is not impacted negatively. I recently got clean from opiates (and for opiates, clean for me means never even touching one again as I cannot control my opiate usage), but I enjoy smoking marijuana responsibly, not daily anymore but whenever it feels right. I drink occasionally, and take psychedelics at special occasions. I'm not opposed to (very) occasionally using empathogens either. But clean for me is using them sparingly and responsibly, and being sober the vast majority of the time.

Sober is just that, not under the influence of any drugs. But total sobriety isn't necessary for everyone. Alteration of consciousness is something humans have been doing since pre-history, and for some it is a valid part of the human experience.
 
Sounds like someone is trying to rationalize slipping up.


Well that's not a million miles from the truth.

I'm detoxing from opiates (again) atm then I have a benzo detox to do afterwards but I'm conflicted about what I'm heading towards. Not sure whether full abstention is for me tbh, tried it, was notvery happy (but that could be put down towards situational factors. One thing that is obvious is that I need to make massive changes to my drug intake pattern, I'm not sure whether that need mean complete abstinence. History does show that drug use very rapidly leads to bad situations though.
 
Addiction runs in my bloodline I have 3 alcoholics in my immediate family, and I have certainly drank too much for extended periods of time myself. When I was put on oxy was told don't drink with it so those were the end of my drinking days. I have a very obbessive/ compulsive personality when I enjoy doing something I tend to go overboard....so for me staying "clean" means from everything. :(
 
Addiction runs in my bloodline I have 3 alcoholics in my immediate family, and I have certainly drank too much for extended periods of time myself. When I was put on oxy was told don't drink with it so those were the end of my drinking days. I have a very obbessive/ compulsive personality when I enjoy doing something I tend to go overboard....so for me staying "clean" means from everything. :(

Hiya Sosick,
I can relate to that. I also get obsessive / compulsive over lots of things and not just drugs too, pretty much everything I'm interested in - and I also have family members with alcohol addictions; a relative died of liver failure due to alcoholism.
I hope you're settling into the site well. How you finding things?

Evey
 
I've always hated the word "clean" because it implies that the opposite, "dirty", applies when you are using and I think this feeds into stereotypes. Still, I know many people don't share my sensitivity towards language.

I do.

Charlie Clean did.

Maxalfie gets it.

Brimz too.

Drugs ain't dirty. Prohibition is.

History does show that drug use very rapidly leads to bad situations though

Bad situations are subjective and created by law. The very concept of 'bad' is a moral one. And morality is defined by...
 
Well that's not a million miles from the truth.

I'm detoxing from opiates (again) atm then I have a benzo detox to do afterwards but I'm conflicted about what I'm heading towards. Not sure whether full abstention is for me tbh, tried it, was notvery happy (but that could be put down towards situational factors. One thing that is obvious is that I need to make massive changes to my drug intake pattern, I'm not sure whether that need mean complete abstinence. History does show that drug use very rapidly leads to bad situations though.

Just curious but are you going from suboxone to nothing or a full agonist?
 
SHM it's sure great to see you here. Owen you don't have to be abstinent from all mind-altering substances if that doesn't work from you. Maybe you can handles some but not others. Different strokes for different folks. And if not being abstinent, for YOU, keeps you from going back to opiate / benzo addiction - then so be it.

Evey
 
so what exactly is sobriety to you guys/gals?

As it says in the title what do you consider sober?

Free of a d.o.c.?
Or
All substances?

Would like to hear about both and anything in between.
 
I guess for me it's free of drugs that have caused problems for me in the past which for me are psychedelics. I still smoke a little weed and drink a little beer but that hasn't ever really been problematic. Psychedelics on the other hand have caused me to act crazy before, psychotic. so I'm swearing them off.
 
Well to be sober means to be... sober. Not high in any way or under the influence of any sort of mind-altering substance. That's it's definition ;p But RECOVERY, on the other hand, can be open to interpretation. When it comes to being recovered, people have different ideas about what that means to them... addiction is a very personal and individual disease and it manifests itself uniquely from person to person, so everyone's mileage may vary!!

I just realized I sound like a smart ass right now lol sorry!! I'm not trying to be... I just notice that a lot of the time, sobriety, recovery, and being clean (which is another thing in itself as well) are used interchangeably, as if the three are the same... but they're actually all sort of just different tiers on the same ladder, if that makes sense!! I just think it's important to distinguish between the three, and I wish other people would start doing it more too, because I think it would save a lot of confusion in conversations and a lot of situations where people feel they need to push their beliefs onto someone else or lecture them because they don't agree when it could have been avoided with different wording!! We've ALL seen those types of arguments break out... where someone says, "I'm on Suboxone but I'm clean" (because that's what being clean means to them) and someone else comes along and says, "well you're not sober if you're on Suboxone!!" and then people start getting defensive... lol.

That's the broader answer to your question ;p To answer it on a personal level, being sober is exactly what the definition says it is!! And then being clean is to be free of your drug of choice and to be able to function in life, though you may still be battling the addiction on maintenance drugs. And to be recovered means to be free of addiction entirely. Basically what I'm saying is, you can be recovered without being sober, you can be clean without being recovered, and so on... :)
 
I used to think I was sober, and absolutely clean (normal) on methadone.
Was I wrong? I worked, travelled, never drank or used drugs, none at all.

Still, I didn't want to be linked with that 4ever, so I quit.

Clean for me is the goal to be sober and by sober I say no drugs or legal meds that make you dependent that is I'm totally sober.

No more Methadone!

However, I am still feel very linked as if I'm still having withdrawals, it's psychological I guess.
Mentally exhausted..

Getting there.

Anyway, I believe your are clean when you don't use substances that alter your state of mind.
That imo would be absolute. And I don't agree with absolute..

Say my doctor prescribes a benzodiazepine as an SOS to be used eventually in order to sleep, wouldn't I be clean nor sober??
 
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