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The gun thread, reloaded.

What do gun fanatics have to do with this shooting?

Perhaps they had nothing to do directly with this incident. They do, however, have the kind of deep pockets that have permanently kept gun control legislation shelved, and who constantly argue that more guns are the solution to gun problems.

One of the things that bugs me about the "more guns" crowd is that they--IMO--completely ignore realism and human psychology. In their world, someone with a gun always has some protection, maybe some spark or inspiration that will give them an edge in a firefight; they imagine someone opening up in a crowd, and one--perhaps many--individuals spontaneously rising to the occasion and snuffing the killer out. That's not how it happens, though; even in combat zones where *everyone's* armed, nobody does such silly walking against the wind stuff. Cops want to save their asses--everyone wants to save theirs--but in that time, a lot of bad shit can happen before our putative "good guy" rises to the occasion, which could've been prevented if there were no rogue gunman to begin with.

Forget about Fort Hood. Say someone with a simple .45 revolver walks into a hypothetical crowded mall in which *every adult* is armed with a handgun of your choice. Let's say he knows how to shoot, knows this is a suicide mission, and decides to make the best of his six shots. If he's very good he can get off say, a shot every two seconds and kill everyone he aims at even if they scatter (which is what real people do when shots ring out); if he's good but not great, maybe he'll kill three and only wound the others. Anyway, he runs out and someone kills him; there you go, three people dead for one gunman. I just cannot believe that, even if everyone were armed and trained to use them, that in a split-second situation like that that someone would kill the perp before at least two other people were killed; or that killing that one perp would be worth the death or grave injury of somebody who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, an injury that would not have happened if that person had not had access to a firearm. Sure, mass stabbings can and do occur, but anyone stacking up the body count of one type against another doesn't have a leg to stand on, if we're just talking about the deadliness of methods.

But, whatever, since this will change not a single person's mind. This country long ago decided that the Second Amendment was worth a few thousand dead people; we made our pie, and now we have to eat it.
 
But see, that's where I get confused. How would you do that? Practically. I'll take it to the extreme just to illustrate a point. Total Prohibition? I'm going to guess that I'm in the right environment here, such that I don't have to explain why it doesn't work.

Gun control and drug prohibition are not the same thing. First things first it's silly to make a statement like there was a shooting last month with an illegal gun so gun control failed so lets just give up. No one anywhere states gun control is going to stop illegal guns 100 percent. No law anywhere has a 100 percent success rate. When they have drunk driving checkpoints everywhere you don't hear people whining there was a drunk driving death last night so lets just give up. Drunk driving checkpoints are to reduce drunk driving, no one anywhere thinks it will eliminate it. So the point of gun control is to reduce shootings, It has done that in every country it has been enacted in. I have to find any supporters of gun control who state it will eliminate criminal use of guns. Gun control is a success, and once again the gangster who shot the other gangster in the UK or Canada is in no way a sign gun control has failed. All the rest of the civilized world has a lower rate of shootings and murder than the USA. Your laws are the ones that failed, these new "guns everywhere" laws make you the laughing stock of the world.
Drug prohibition on the other hand has clearly failed. It has not reduced drug use in any area among any demographic.
Totally different animals.
 
wicked said:
We see time after time that equal force is the only thing that ends these rampages.

We do? It seems that any incapacitating force could be sufficient. We should also keep in mind that these types of mass shootings compose a tiny proportion of the death toll wrought by firearms (the majority actually being suicides), statistically insignificant, and thus not a good basis on which to base public policy.

bel said:
but in that time, a lot of bad shit can happen before our putative "good guy" rises to the occasion, which could've been prevented if there were no rogue gunman to begin with.

Insightful and well put. I was hesitant, because I lack expertise in combat tactics (and dynamics), but this seems to be a key, neglected point of discussion.

ebola
 
n my sceanrio, i'd make sure he never got the gun in the first place.

alasdair

That's an udderly ridiculous proposition.. what do you plan? To ban guns? It's estimated there are 875 MILLION firearms in the world.. are you going to catch 'em all?



Did you really not read the post I was responding to? That's sort of how forums like these work, they're not just random remarks without context. In fact, someone DID bring up bats and clubs. Please read the posts thoroughly before offering condescending responses.

As for your last paragraph, I have no idea what you're talking about or where you're going with this.

So, someone brought up something in an internet forum.. what basis does this have in reality again? "Not putting yourself in that situation" is a construct of pure fantasy. Thinking that shooting victims deserve to be shot is the same as thinking rape victims deserve to be raped. You talk about "gun nuts" but where is the mention of "gun control fanatics"? IMO they are pushing parallel bullshit which sends this debate in circles and leads to no positive change.


Take a step back and join the debate instead of pushing the same doctrine we've all heard and dismissed years ago. Not necessarily saying that's you, Bardeaux, but it's something I see time and time again on a number of topics.
 
That's an udderly ridiculous proposition.. what do you plan? To ban guns? It's estimated there are 875 MILLION firearms in the world.. are you going to catch 'em all?
no need to condescend. we're discussing hypothetical situations which, as i noted in post #457, are of limited value. i'm suggesting that addressing causes is a better approach than addressing symptoms.

and who's arguing to ban every gun in the world? not me. when you have to exaggerate to that extent, your counterpoint loses steam. now who's being utterly (note spelling) ridiculous?

alasdair
 
So, someone brought up something in an internet forum.. what basis does this have in reality again?

This is how conversation works. Someone makes a point and others offer a retort. Its no different from what I'm doing as I type this.


"Not putting yourself in that situation" is a construct of pure fantasy.

Obviously there is no method to remain 100% safe from violence. I acknowledged this in my post, which had nothing to do with shootings. This is why its important to pay attention to the discussion.

Thinking that shooting victims deserve to be shot is the same as thinking rape victims deserved to be taped. You talk about "gun nuts" but where is the mention of "gun control fanatics?"

I don't recall implying any of this. Can you find the quote where I said anything of the sort, please? It sounds like you're just inventing claims and twisting arguments.
 
no need to condescend. we're discussing hypothetical situations which, as i noted in post #457, are of limited value. i'm suggesting that addressing causes is a better approach than addressing symptoms.

and who's arguing to ban every gun in the world? not me. when you have to exaggerate to that extent, your counterpoint loses steam. now who's being utterly (note spelling) ridiculous?

alasdair

If there are still guns out there then criminals can still get their hands on them.. how do you propose to stop their threat? And I mean, logically. My reasoning would be that having someone trained and skilled in the use of a firearm would be the best way to eliminate that threat. Considering the vast amount of weapons in this world, you simply can't exclude them from the conversation however. Defending yourself from someone with a club is completely different to defending yourself from a gun.


@Escher, no not quite. I see everyone decided to ignore the other options I listed and decided to fixate themselves on this one. If you don't start trouble it isn't likely to find you. If trouble does find you, see: the other options I listed.

The problem is trouble DOES find people, everyday. A large amount of the time, that trouble is armed much more heavily than you are. Running from a bullet is not going to happen, fighting against someone holding a pistol in your face is moronic and letting them beat your ass is not an acceptable answer for most people. Obviously US gun policy is flawed with over a third of the total guns in the hands of 5% of the population, but I think it's time to set aside the semi-sarcastic remarks and the fantasy that good people don't get shot and actually put this effort into something constructive.

There is always going to be two sides to this debate, instead of trying to get one to win over the other compromises need to be made that will actually accept the reality of the situation. There is always going to be a bad guy with a gun somewhere, IMO the emphasis needs to be keeping weapons from falling into the wrong hands rather than keeping them from ordinary citizens. I wouldn't be against mandatory psyche evaluations and extended therapy sessions being required to own a gun.
 
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So where's the part where I condemned rape victims or victims of violence?

The problem is trouble DOES find people, everyday. A large amount of the time, that trouble is armed much more heavily than you are.

Indeed.

Obviously there is no method to remain 100% safe from violence. I acknowledged this in my post, which had nothing to do with shootings. This is why its important to pay attention to the discussion.
 
They do, however, have the kind of deep pockets that have permanently kept gun control legislation shelved, and who constantly argue that more guns are the solution to gun problems.

Define gun control legislation. What proposed/actual laws are you talking about? Please be specific. Pretty much anything that has been talked about on the national stage in the past couple years has been nonsensical blather. Universal background checks, gun-show loopholes, magazine capacity, "assault" weapon ban (in quotes because most anti-gun people can't seem to define what an "assault" weapon actually is): All of these may appear on the surface to offer a benefit, but when you dig deeper into real numbers and stats you find they're useless. We already have laws that cover the real gun issues, but we aren't enforcing them. Here's some specifics for everyone to chew on:

Background checks - When you buy a gun (including from a gun-show), you must already submit to a background check through the NICS. Attempting to buy a gun when you aren't qualified is a felony. When the system rejects an individual, the ATF is supposed to investigate. Currently, they only follow up on 6% of the rejections. That means there's a whopping 94% chance that if a felon/disqualified individual tries to buy a gun and gets rejected, no one is going after him/her for doing so.

Loopholes - Currently the only real loophole that exists pertains to private sales. We could argue whether to extend background checks to these, however, FBI stats show that only ~1% of the guns used in crimes come from such transfers.

Mental Health Info/Disqualification - Currently, most states do not submit diagnoses to the NICS that would disqualify people on the basis of mental health. This is because patient's "rights" groups have argued this would be a violation of HIPAA. So there is currently no way to check mental health against gun sales. The NRA has both lobbied and contributed money towards expanding the NICS to include such information, however, it has been groups like the ACLU that have fought against it.

Those are just a few examples. We aren't enforcing with the laws we already have. Why would more make any difference? As far as more guns being the solution, let's keep this simple. IF we allow private ownership of guns, then a similar ranged projectile device (whether it be a gun or a non-lethal device) is going to be the ONLY effective stop to an individual with a gun. Every situation of this type ends when other individuals (police, private citizens, whatever) show up with guns. Either they confront the suspect and kill them or the suspect kills himself/herself AFTER being confronted. This script is repeated time after time.

...snip... which could've been prevented if there were no rogue gunman to begin with.

So how do you accomplish this? Total confiscation? What practical solutions can you think of?

Say someone with a simple .45 revolver walks into a hypothetical crowded mall in which *every adult* is armed with a handgun of your choice.

Hold on now. That's a pretty blatant strawman. No one, except anti-gun propagandists, is arguing that every adult be armed. The argument is whether individuals who choose to carry and who receive proper training, should be allowed to do so. It's just like the concept of a volunteer military. We don't need everyone to sign up, just a willing minority.

Let's say he knows how to shoot, knows this is a suicide mission, and decides to make the best of his six shots. If he's very good he can get off say, a shot every two seconds and kill everyone he aims at even if they scatter (which is what real people do when shots ring out); if he's good but not great, maybe he'll kill three and only wound the others. Anyway, he runs out and someone kills him; there you go, three people dead for one gunman. I just cannot believe that, even if everyone were armed and trained to use them, that in a split-second situation like that that someone would kill the perp before at least two other people were killed; or that killing that one perp would be worth the death or grave injury of somebody who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, an injury that would not have happened if that person had not had access to a firearm. Sure, mass stabbings can and do occur, but anyone stacking up the body count of one type against another doesn't have a leg to stand on, if we're just talking about the deadliness of methods.

Ok, so he kills a few people. Isn't that better than 20 or 30? No solution is perfect. The point is to reduce the body count as much as possible. By the way (as ebola? mentioned), these "mass shootings" account for a very small amount of the guns deaths in the USA, a few hundred actually. There about about 30,000 / year total according to the FBI. More than 50% are from suicides. There are already 8 million CCW holders in the US. It takes commitment to go down that road (time, money, training, etc.). Maybe we can expand the training/safety/mental check portion of the equation and reduce the difficulty of the process, such that those who get proper training and pass all the checks can CHOOSE to carry. Not all will choose. That's the point. We only want people that are comfortable with it doing so.
 
The only reson I carry a gun in the US is because of all the crazy shit that happens. If there were not so many crazy shootings I wouldn't need it.
 
Gun control and drug prohibition are not the same thing.

Yes they are. They are exactly alike. If by "gun control" you mean the repeal of the second amendment and the total confiscation of all firearms in the US. Which is of course what the phrase "Total Prohibition" means. Banning something doesn't make it go away.

First things first it's silly to make a statement like there was a shooting last month with an illegal gun so gun control failed so lets just give up. No one anywhere states gun control is going to stop illegal guns 100 percent. No law anywhere has a 100 percent success rate.

You're right, it is silly. And a borderline strawman. Who is saying we should give up? I'm not understanding you here. The goal of gun control is to stop all guns or just illegal guns? Please clarify.

So the point of gun control is to reduce shootings, It has done that in every country it has been enacted in.

I thought the point was to reduce murders? If shootings fall but the overall violent crime stats stay the same, what have we really accomplished?

Gun control is a success, and once again the gangster who shot the other gangster in the UK or Canada is in no way a sign gun control has failed. All the rest of the civilized world has a lower rate of shootings and murder than the USA.

Whoa whoa whoa. Slow down. Have you ever heard the phrase, "correlation does not equal causation?" You are demonstrating it right now. You are attempting to correlate the higher murder rate in the US with the availability of guns as the cause. This is false. Our higher murder rate exists independent of the gun issue. Obama recently commissioned the CDC (Center for Disease Control) in the US to study this exact issue and other related gun stats. Their findings were released very recently. I urge everyone to search out this report and read up. They specifically found no relationship to support the "more guns = more crime" argument. It was one of their critical findings. Frankly, that particular argument should be long-dead, but because it goes against I guess what most people would consider common sense (though not to me), it still lingers.

More guns = more gun deaths - This is true.
More guns = more crime - This is false.
More guns = less crime - Unknown, but probably also false. John Lott attempted to make this argument with a recent book, but its findings have been questioned.

Your laws are the ones that failed, these new "guns everywhere" laws make you the laughing stock of the world.

Another strawman? There are no "guns everywhere" laws.



We do? It seems that any incapacitating force could be sufficient. We should also keep in mind that these types of mass shootings compose a tiny proportion of the death toll wrought by firearms (the majority actually being suicides), statistically insignificant, and thus not a good basis on which to base public policy.

Right, I agree. I dealt with this in a bit more detail in the post above this one. As long as the range can be met and the force is sufficient to incapacitate, sure. Either way, however, it is again projectile weaponry of some sort ending the conflict. And I mostly agree with the rest. I do, however, think there some overall policy changes that would actually benefit this issue and others in the long-run.

Also, just to add. ~30,000 deaths by gun / year in the US. 50%+ from suicides. About 10,000 - 11,000 involve gang members or other criminal on criminal shooting. So it's really down to about 3,000 - 5,000 non-criminal/gang homicide as we tend to think of it. Source is FBI's universal crime statistics. Very useful read.
 
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The thing is, the suicide component of the rate of death by firearm is easily amenable to policy changes. One might think that suicides aren't subject to influences like ease of access to tools, but convenience of means of termination factors strongly into the decision; one who is in danger of suicide is in constant struggle with him/herself and only actually undertakes the act in a fleeting moment. Reduced access to firearms should exert a large influence over rate of suicide. Hell, the reduced proliferation of coal gas ovens that one could suffocate in reduced the suicide rate appreciably in the UK.

ebola
 
I'm so glad I don't live in the US anymore. Fucking crazies. Folley you should really try getting out of where ever you are sometime.

The development of non-lethal means (relative) which are as fail-safe as a head shot is happening, but is more a question of price than sufficient technology. Police really don't want to get into the argument of how much a life is worth (monetarily), so they try to avoid the topic.
 
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How exactly am I "crazy"?



Less-lethal (note: not non-lethal) weapons usually have very short ranges compared to conventional firearms. The North Hollywood shootout is a good example of how having a Police force that is ill-equipped to deal with any situation is an awful idea. Putting them at a significant disadvantage like that would do much more harm than good, IMO.

Should it be so easy to buy assault rifles? No. Should we ban guns outright? Of course not. I'm saying there needs to be a middle ground, instead of everyone taking either the "Gun Fanatic" or "Libtard" sides of the debate.... all that does is keep the discussion from overcoming the same rut it's been traveling in since the prohibition era.
 
How exactly am I "crazy"?



Less-lethal (note: not non-lethal) weapons usually have very short ranges compared to conventional firearms. The North Hollywood shootout is a good example of how having a Police force that is ill-equipped to deal with any situation is an awful idea. Putting them at a significant disadvantage like that would do much more harm than good, IMO.

Should it be so easy to buy assault rifles? No. Should we ban guns outright? Of course not. I'm saying there needs to be a middle ground, instead of everyone taking either the "Gun Fanatic" or "Libtard" sides of the debate.... all that does is keep the discussion from overcoming the same rut it's been traveling in since the prohibition era.

You are crazy because you make up facts to support a twisted argument. You claim that it is impossible to keep guns out of the hands of "bad guys", however many other parts of the western world do a great job doing so. Gun death/injury statistics display this year after year. It is not as if you can't go to a shooting club to shoot, or get a hunting permit. It is simply harder and more expensive to get a license, and not every person can get an assault rifle to go shoot a deer.

If there are so many guns in the world, how come I haven't heard one go off since the last time I was in the US? I understand your opinion for where you are. It IS reality. Also, it is crazy that your environment is self produced and maintained under the premise of self defense. Some of the time against the same defense generated by the 'defense' spending pro-gun people often support.
 
"too widespread to deal" sounds like "too big to fail" to me.

if you limit your thinking on a problem to "it's so serious it will never be solved" then of course you'll never solve it. it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. i honestly don't see many people calling for an outright ban on all guns but that's how those on the pro-gun side of the debate choose to characterise any attempt to control.

it all sounds a bit like any attempt to respect the separation of church and state as an attack on christmas! i wonder why...

oh, the irony.

alasdair
 
Should it be so easy to buy assault rifles? No. Should we ban guns outright? Of course not. I'm saying there needs to be a middle ground

This is pretty much what everyone here is saying to you, as far as I can tell. As ali points out, the anti-control faction of the debate associates any sort of control (like a national registry) with the stripping away all rights to firearms all together. The point being, gun control =/= outright prohibition.
 
If everyone is saying that to me, they're barking up the wrong tree. I'm all for a stricter control, as long as the firearms are still available to those who prove themselves able to carry them. There obviously needs to be some more measures put in place to determine who is fit to own such a deadly tool, the current system is not working. There was a news piece that something like 90+% of gun sales that are rejected for either mental or criminal records are not investigated... can't seem to find the article to back that up though, and I saw it on the telly




I work with someone who carries a 1911 at all times, I haven't heard a gun shot outside of a range in years. Owning guns does not make you a "fanatic", an unwillingness to change because you think Obama is trying to turn America into a Socialist state does.. There is a LARGE difference between a gun owner and a gun fanatic, the "crazies" just happen to be very verbal with their positions and get the most coverage on Fox.
 
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