EADD Theology Megathread - Book II - Exodus

[Vurtual]

I'll try again - hey Raas, we've all had a critical yet (mostly) respectful look at your religion; hows about you (and anyone else) giving something back about some other theologies...(after all, i did read the bible nearly all the way through in earlier years (granted i was looking for spacemen and conspracies))

Here's a (totally not representative) random selection of quotes from the bhagavad gita (chats with one of god's earlier sons, Krishna) - probably better to read the whole thing (it's only short); or there's an 'in our time' program about it on the iplayer. Also, maybe reading some will give you an idea of how some of us see the bible (ie as a detached observer).

“Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation.”

“The power of God is with you at all times; through the activities of mind, senses, breathing, and emotions; and is constantly doing all the work using you as a mere instrument.”

"Sin will take hold of us in slaying them, though they are the aggressors. So it is not fit that we kill the sons of Dhritarashtra, our kinsmen; indeed how may we be happy, O Madhava, killing our own people?"

“He who has let go of hatred
who treats all beings with kindness
and compassion, who is always serene,
unmoved by pain or pleasure,

free of the "I" and "mine,"
self-controlled, firm and patient,
his whole mind focused on me ---
that is the man I love best.”

“The nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons.They arise from sense perception,and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.”

“The wise grieve neither for the living nor for the dead. There was never a time when you and I and all the kings gathered here have not existed and nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist.”

“Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the Divine, renouncing attachment and looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity."

“Curving back within myself I create again and again.”

I'm not promoting any religion in particular, but i find there's a lot of wisdom in it and related books - in many ways imho more and more coherent wisdom than can be squeezed out of the bible (unsurprisingly as it was a more coherent literary tradition). There's a lot of similarity between krishna and jesus (some even saying the jesus story was plagiarised from it). There's stuff to criticise also (like it's all a bit elitist (princes and kings and brahmins)); plus they seem a bit keen on fighting - on the other hand sex is a lot more positively explored than the prudish jews and christians

 

[Raasyvibe]

^Virtual, i'll get back later you just ninja'd my response to Sammy's post

Life after death (of some kind) is not part of religious eschatology as such, but part of folklore and popular myth. So 'afterlife' is stretching it just a bit, but life after death it is.

And yes, maybe I should have phrased it less explicitly than I did, but the fact remains that both Heaven and Hell (key concepts around which Christian eschatology is formed) didn't actually exist around the time of Moses. At least not explicitly in the scriptures from around that period.[/b]

The OT doesn't elaborate on details of how heaven works, or expound it like the NT does. But the concepts of good rising to heaven and the bad being sent to hell definitely existed and are mentioned both obliquely and candidly many times:

"eschatology", nice word though


Recognition of heaven/other realms in the OT:

NSFW:

The Beginning
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.…


Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Job 9:8
He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.

Job 38:4
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.

Psalm 89:11
The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth; you founded the world and all that is in it.

Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Psalm 115:15
May you be blessed by the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.

Psalm 124:8
Our help is in the name of the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.

Psalm 136:5
who by his understanding made the heavens, His love endures forever.

Psalm 148:5
Let them praise the name of the LORD, for at his command they were created,

Isaiah 40:21
Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says-- the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Jeremiah 10:12
But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

The good ascending to heaven:


http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_152.cfm
" The story of Enoch And Elijah

We know that two Old Testament characters, Enoch and Elijah, did not die but were taken into the presence of God. When Elijah arrived in heaven he certainly found others apart from God and Enoch!"



References towards the good going to heaven and the bad going to hell are mentioned in the OT. Here's some further passages from Isaiah, Psalms and Daniel.

NSFW:

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2)

King David on heaven:

Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever (Psalm 23:6).

"house of the Lord" is recognised as referring to heaven

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

[Sammy G]

Enoch does not ascend 'to heaven', he is 'with God'.

You're imposing Christian concepts on Judaism again. As I've already demonstrated, :D

Nice attempt, but mention of specific characters ascending to the presence of God does not a Heaven make I'm afraid. And again, you're posting translations by Christians.

The original Hebrew is far more ambiguous than you'd ever believe, hence the massive discrepancies between the extant Hebrew scriptures and the earliest Christian representations.

 

[Vurtual]

Raas - before you get back to me, i'll just jump in here too - the quotes you gave above about heaven seem to be mostly in the usual classical/pagan sense of heavens meaning sky/stars (like uranus) - people 'going to' these heavens was still thought of in classical terms (and becoming a god/star as in egyptian mythology). The examples of 'hell' (jewish or otherwise) i think also fit in the classical underworld/hades (meaning under the ground where the dead go and the sun goes at night). Anyway, as you were...

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

All of those heaven references Raas could easily fit into what I said - a mistranslation of sky or 'the skies' or a figurative reference to God. Just for one example look at the Job 9:8

He stretches out the heavens (skies) and treads on the waves of the sea.

This is an obvious literary device, contrasting sky with sea to encapsulate a whole. A mistranslation. A projection of Christian want and meaning onto the Judaism they are, erm, updating?

 

[Raasyvibe]

Virtual - very interesting quotes which I have read and have my thoughts - but don't want to respond quite yet, at risk of defocusing and digressing from the current topic.

This is an obvious literary device, contrasting sky with sea to encapsulate a whole. A mistranslation. A projection of Christian want and meaning onto the Judaism they are, erm, updating?

Enoch does not ascend 'to heaven', he is 'with God'.

You're imposing Christian concepts on Judaism again. As I've already demonstrated, :D

Nice attempt, but mention of specific characters ascending to the presence of God does not a Heaven make I'm afraid. And again, you're posting translations by Christians.

The original Hebrew is far more ambiguous than you'd ever believe, hence the massive discrepancies between the extant Hebrew scriptures and the earliest Christian representations.

So what ya saying is, the translation is incorrect and even though our bibles speak of ascension to heaven in the old testament and allude to hell, the original Hebrew texts - free of translational errency and interruption - do not describe these places?

At this point it becomes very difficult to challenge this myself, because, well, I don't speak or read Hebrew. Maybe I know a few swear words, but not much else.

 

[Sammy G]

So what ya saying is, the translation is incorrect and even though our bibles speak of ascension to heaven in the old testament and allude to hell, the original Hebrew texts - free of translational errency and interruption - do not describe these places?

Yeah, that's about it.

At this point it becomes very difficult to challenge this myself, because, well, I don't speak or read Hebrew. Maybe I know a few swear words, but not much else.

I'm not a Hebrew speaker either, though I do know some vocab, most of it Biblical in nature.

I know enough about the differences between Christianity and Judaism, however, understand how the Old Testament as we know it differs from the source texts. It was and is something I'm fascinated in, and I don't do it in order to demonstrate the validity (or otherwise) of either Christianity or Judaism; merely to demonstrate that both of them significantly deviated from their source material over the years.

I find it especially fascinating that at one time there were three core beliefs about the 'afterlife' among the Jews: resurrection, the eternal life of the soul and neither of the above, none of which are actually derived from the Hebrew Bible, but from other sources.

Of these, Christians took up the doctrine of the Essenes, which is of course immortality of the soul. Jesus Christ has often been characterised as an Essene himself, as you're no doubt aware.

 

[Raasyvibe]

Yeah, that's about it.



I'm not a Hebrew speaker either, though I do know some vocab, most of it Biblical in nature.

I know enough about the differences between Christianity and Judaism, however, understand how the Old Testament as we know it differs from the source texts. It was and is something I'm fascinated in, and I don't do it in order to demonstrate the validity (or otherwise) of either Christianity or Judaism; merely to demonstrate that both of them significantly deviated from their source material over the years.

I find it especially fascinating that at one time there were three core beliefs about the 'afterlife' among the Jews: resurrection, the eternal life of the soul and neither of the above, none of which are actually derived from the Hebrew Bible, but from other sources.

Of these, Christians took up the doctrine of the Essenes, which is of course immortality of the soul. Jesus Christ has often been characterised as an Essene himself, as you're no doubt aware.

Brilliant post, Sammy.

I thought it was another (Like much of this thread previously) ignorant misinterpretation of scripture that could be swiftly responded too. But you've pushed Bible scrupilation to a far deeper level. I'm still dubious about some of what you say, but I am in no position to outright downplay it because of the associated complexes of not speaking Hebrew. Can you recommend any books or documentaries on Hebrew texts and their translation deviations between Christianity and Judaism interpretation? Sounds fascinating, the histocracy of old testament literature is an area I am not (but would like to get) familiar with.

 

[Sammy G]

I approached it initially through 'occultist' sources, which may not be something you're comfortable with, though something like The Golden Bough by Frazer is perfectly accessible to those with a solely academic / personal interest in such matters. It was controversial in its day, but far less so now.

Beyond that, pretty much any source you encounter will have an obvious agenda, though something like And God Said by Joel Hoffman is written for those who don't necessarily want to dump the baby of their beliefs out with the bathwater of historical fact, so to speak.

 

[Raasyvibe]

Beyond that, pretty much any source you encounter will have an obvious agenda,

Yeah, this is the problem riddled throughout the theology field... Best to look at the subject in hand from a few different sources to discern a more accurate understanding.

 

[Raasyvibe]

I'll try again - hey Raas, we've all had a critical yet (mostly) respectful look at your religion; hows about you (and anyone else) giving something back about some other theologies...(after all, i did read the bible nearly all the way through in earlier years (granted i was looking for spacemen and conspracies))

Here's a (totally not representative) random selection of quotes from the bhagavad gita (chats with one of god's earlier sons, Krishna) - probably better to read the whole thing (it's only short); or there's an 'in our time' program about it on the iplayer. Also, maybe reading some will give you an idea of how some of us see the bible (ie as a detached observer).
“Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation.”

“The power of God is with you at all times; through the activities of mind, senses, breathing, and emotions; and is constantly doing all the work using you as a mere instrument.”

"Sin will take hold of us in slaying them, though they are the aggressors. So it is not fit that we kill the sons of Dhritarashtra, our kinsmen; indeed how may we be happy, O Madhava, killing our own people?"

“He who has let go of hatred
who treats all beings with kindness
and compassion, who is always serene,
unmoved by pain or pleasure,

free of the "I" and "mine,"
self-controlled, firm and patient,
his whole mind focused on me ---
that is the man I love best.”

“The nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons.They arise from sense perception,and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.”

“The wise grieve neither for the living nor for the dead. There was never a time when you and I and all the kings gathered here have not existed and nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist.”

“Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the Divine, renouncing attachment and looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity."

“Curving back within myself I create again and again.”

I'm not promoting any religion in particular, but i find there's a lot of wisdom in it and related books - in many ways imho more and more coherent wisdom than can be squeezed out of the bible (unsurprisingly as it was a more coherent literary tradition). There's a lot of similarity between krishna and jesus (some even saying the jesus story was plagiarised from it). There's stuff to criticise also (like it's all a bit elitist (princes and kings and brahmins)); plus they seem a bit keen on fighting - on the other hand sex is a lot more positively explored than the prudish jews and christians

Er, misconception: Christians and even Jews aren't meant to be prudish about sex. You've invented that, or misperceived it. Sure there's a few quotes somewhere in proverbs opposing prudishness. We believe in channelling sex in a good and decent way; avoiding the bad temptations and perversities. That is all. Was Jesus prudish when he had a sexual sinner brought to him? No, he treated her with respect.


As for the quotes, yes they are great. As you said a lot of wisdom and spiritual nurturing. However not in anyway more so than the bible as far as I can see. Christianity is quite coherent on the wisdom aspect; read proverbs and gospel teachings.

Hinduism, like Islam and Buddhism coalesces greatly with Christianity and bare a lot of resemblances in regards to wisdom, faith, ethic and recognition of sin. Christianity has far more focus on it's role-model, Jesus, who is seen as both an idol and a personal entity.

 

[Vurtual]

Er, misconception:....

When i describe christianity i'm talking about what it actually is and not what jesus thought (because that was likely different). Chrisitianity is definitely prudish and controlling about sex and marriage; especially catholicism (or do you not count that). Check out some of krishna's stuff about shagging and tell me there's anything close in christianity (some say there's some sex-magick type stuff in the old testament though, but couched in euphemism (song of solomon is it?)). Saying that, i'd probably argue that where it is prudish/controlling about sex, that's more from when it became an instrument of state power and patriarchy rather than anything in the actual original message (which could have been some weird gnostic sect anyway, and who knows what they got up to)

As for coherency of the bible compared with the bhagavad gita, there's no contest i reckon - as many of us have outlined in this thread, it's impressive that anyone can find coherence in the bible, with it being provably a hodge-podge of contradictory sources. That's not to say i'm in the camp of thinking it's all made up or worthless (necessarily); just that it requires a bit of discrimination and interpretation to extract the nice message from it (same as any 'holy' book).

...

if you really want a book that gives a rundown of the history of the bible and religion generally, but from a non-hostile-to-christians viewpoint, try any of Karen Armstrong's books (history of god is good on the old testament) - she's a lapsed catholic nun, and is as sympathetic as the material allows (which is very sympathetic i think - probably way too much for a lot of athiests). She covers most religions throughout her books, so they're a good way to get to know other religions too (i particularly enjoyed reading about chinese religious history in 'the great transformation' - so much more to it than just taoism and confucious).

i'm agnostic about these sort of things and don't believe any religion in particular, but i find reading different religions' cosmologies and mythologies fascinating. As far as interesting and deep cosmolgies, hindu stuff is hard to beat really (bear in mind hinduism isn't a single religion but a collection of different traditions). i read this stuff and some of it's mindblowing in its scope and timescale; and also in how so much of it can fit quite nicely (with a bit of imagination) with modern physics ideas (like the creator/maintainer/destroyer theme which i thought could be analogous to life(complexity)/energy(conservation)/entropy). No offence but to me it makes the christian stuff seem simplistic in comparison (though the gnostic and later hermetic/neoplatonic stuff is a lot closer - then there's teillhard de chardin)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology

 

[NightsEpiphany]

i thought i'd contribute a pikture to all this wordiage.

Ed:

I know this is the theology page and not strictly a sharing of faith thread as such but I wanted to share this briefly if you don't mind. I joked on the other page about feeling like i'd been imprisoned or thrown in a deep well. Thats true, spiritually, psychologically that happened to me last week during the storms. The screeching winds around my windows kinda added to the atmosphere of death, insanity, depression and despair basically. I became ultra sensitive to the vileness of my sin and falling short of what i'm created for. I felt certain i was dead and in hell or on the way and actually thoroughly convicted that I deserved it. At the last knockings though this verse came to me:

“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”e For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13

Light and peace followed the acceptance of it!!

I know God rescued me the other night! I hope you can take something from this testimony, even to remember it if you ever find yourself in a similar place.

Peace.

 

[pinkpapaver]

well this is quite interesting. it's about the alphabet and divinity. I haven't finished reading it but it's fascinating how the letters move around and link together to form words. "In the beginning was the word"

was it with letters that God came into being I wonder? http://www.thegod720.com/The Esoteric Structure Of The Alphabet - A Boyd Kuhn.pdf

Interesting that Hieroglyphs represented ideas rather t5han sounds too. "in the beginning was the word" is bullshit because in the beginning was the picture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u40y5SkFWX8
words and pictures.

 

[pinkpapaver]

well this is quite interesting. it's about the alphabet and divinity. I haven't finished reading it but it's fascinating how the letters move around and link together to form words. "In the beginning was the word"

was it with letters that God came into being I wonder? http://www.thegod720.com/The Esoteric Structure Of The Alphabet - A Boyd Kuhn.pdf

Interesting that Hieroglyphs represented ideas rather t5han sounds too. "in the beginning was the word" is bullshit because in the beginning was the picture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u40y5SkFWX8
words and pictures.

do you know what? that bitch that taught me in my 1st year at school didn't teach me at all. we used to sit in the kiva (a round room with steps) and watch tv. Then we'd go to the hall and tune into the schools radio programmes. she did sweet fa.

and she smacked my bum for spilling paint . she also made me wet myself in the home corner. how very Christian indeed. thee BBC knew how to get into the kids heads alright.

 

[Uncle Robert]

Both mine are fucked too. I need to buy 2 sets desperately. One set of the small flat surfaced ones, which are normally to a g, and mico ones too. I hated the micro ones I had anyway .... knock and ceres both said they were semi-decent for cheapies but they're awkward as hell with only a real tiny metal pan, which isn't big enough to put even a small bag on to. And it had like a rough galvanised kinda finish on the pan, so stuff just kinda sticks into it.

recommends to specific decent cheapo ones would be greatly appreciated. I havent got the mental agility to look through a mega thread atm tho.

Very content with these scales. A bit of a tip that applies to all scales, put a piece of paper onto the metal tray (with a crease in it), zero it, then pour your drugs onto that. Then you can simply lift the paper off and tip your drugs to wherever they need to be as powders don't stick to paper.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0012LOQUQ/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_fNtctb1Y6QEDC

 

[pinkpapaver]

normally, it's the opposite of this experience that people have.

I've just realised that now that I have replaced a lot of my inner god talk with talking to me things make more sense to me and I feel more in control. I'll explain later, it's only just come into my head.

 

[koneko]

This thread scares me. Are you aware of the scaredy cat factor of this thread folks? Imagine being an eadd noob and interested in theology...what that must be like?

Aye, I'm pretty easy on this one. I don't do god as such. Budhha yeh ask if you like otherwise lets agree on giving a fuck :D

Though maybe eadd is the test of the strength of my faith...

 

[BlindHelperMonkey]

yh but srsly.. methuselah

 

[pinkpapaver]

I get put off Buddhism how does all this work what with the Dalai Lama and all that? ALl religions have their good bits and bad bits really, tis why I'm starting my own cult it's probably not that hard . It's scary how many lost people there are that will follow anything if it's sold to them in the right way. and yes, selling is what much religion is about)

I'd love to dig around the Vatican. Take what I believe I'm entitled to from their treasures.