Regarding the so called "refugees" invading Australia

[One Thousand Words]

Individual and cultural responses to poverty tend to be maladaptive (cf. the sociological literature on the culture of poverty (set in relations to the political and economic structural contexts that condition the production of according cultural practices and meanings)). Are they really to blame? Does fault really matter? Isn't the central question one of how to cultivate contexts where every individual has the chance to flourish?

ebola

You can quote as many case studies or statistics you find trawling through the internet, but live the experience and you can speak with more authority. The fact remains these people lack leadership, role models and discipline. It starts with their parents and infects generation after generation. There is no easy fix and at some stage an individual has to stand up and accept responsibility for their own actions. Little things like making your child attend school or are fed and clothed are things you take for granted growing up. Tell me one reason a mother has in not giving their child the best start in life they can. Schools and hospitals exist in these communities but they are wasted. There are barriers that exist for these people but they are handicapped before they even reach these.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Not an internet click away. I worked for aboriginal health and have papers I could post you

http://www.lowitja.org.au/sites/default/files/docs/genetics_research-DP.pdf

That doesn't mention finding specific genes for diabetes or insulin production in the aborigine population.

http://www.lowitja.org.au/sites/default/files/docs/Genetics report WEB 2.pdf

This appears to be concerned with type 2 diabetes, not type 1. Obviously type 2 is strongly environmentally related, and in the West, tends to have a higher correlation with poverty.

 

[One Thousand Words]

I have linked you that organisation so you can waste half your life trawling through the university of melbournes research in order to save me the boredom

http://www.mydr.com.au/diabetes/diabetes-in-aboriginal-australians

There is also this site called google that takes3 seconds to use.

 

[One Thousand Words]

This appears to be concerned with type 2 diabetes, not type 1. Obviously type 2 is strongly environmentally related, and in the West, tends to have a higher correlation with poverty.

Source?

http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/genetics-of-diabetes.html

[Type 2 Diabetes
Type 2 diabetes has a stronger link to family history and lineage than type 1, although it too depends on environmental factors.

Studies of twins have shown that genetics play a very strong role in the development of type 2 diabetes.

Lifestyle also influences the development of type 2 diabetes. Obesity tends to run in families, and families tend to have similar eating and exercise habits.

If you have a family history of type 2 diabetes, it may be difficult to figure out whether your diabetes is due to lifestyle factors or genetic susceptibility. Most likely it is due to both. However, don’t lose heart. Studies show that it is possible to delay or prevent type 2 diabetes by exercising and losing weight.

 

[oldirtybizza]

As a group of people they they just don't have that drive or materialistic urge. .

Bringo!

If as a people you had an unmaterialistic lifestyle that managed to co-exist with your environment for tens of thousands of years and then some other people come along who have a completely different value system that is also entirely unsustainable and hostile to the environment, would you take part in this alien society , would you see it as having value?

Maybe the modern capitalist society doesn't seem like a better alternative to them, hence you can offer all the paid employment and the grants and incentives you want, but don't be so shocked when they're not be taken up.

as for the drinking issue, well I think it's similar to in the movies when something seriously goes wrong and someone says " I need a drink" , in this case the event was colonisation and the drink is just a really really long one.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I have linked you that organisation so you can waste half your life trawling through the university of melbournes research in order to save me the boredom

http://www.mydr.com.au/diabetes/diabetes-in-aboriginal-australians

There is also this site called google that takes3 seconds to use.

So you've made a claim, I've rebutted with a link to information showing that the incidence of diabetes in the Aborigine population is inline with the general population, and now you want me to dig up information for your argument?

Source?

http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/genetics-of-diabetes.html

I'm not saying there's no genetic component to Type 2 (obviously some people can be obese without never developing type 2, while others will develop type 2 even with a little additional weight). But environmental factors are strong for type 2 diabetes.

If you want sources, here's one for older adults attributing 9 out of 10 cases of type 2 to lifestyle.

Here's another that concludes that replacing just 2% of energy from transfats with polyunsaturated fats would be enough to reduce the incidence of type 2 diabetes by 40% among middle age women.

Studies like this are common. Sure, having a family member with type 2 diabetes elevates your risk, but since families share similar circumstances, isolating the genetic risk isn't easy (I looked for your twin studies referenced by you, I could not find any with identical twins separated at birth, and even that wouldn't be ideal, since the twins would share the same environment for the first nine months anyways).

As for the link between poverty and diabetes, here's a study showing that earning less than $15k/year doubles the risk of diabetes.

Why is that? Obesity most likely plays a role. Cheap crappy foods in poor neighborhoods. Then again, correlation is not causation - another factor could be at play that increases the risk of both poverty and type 2 diabetes. For example, an injury, birth defect, or illness that limits a person's ability to physically function could very easily cause lack of success in a career (especially among those without the education/background for more cerebral jobs) and would result in a sedentary lifestyle (resulting in a greater incidence of type 2 diabetes).

 

[One Thousand Words]

A wise man told me at the beginning of my career that being an academic blinds you to the real world. You have been hanging around CE&P so long that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Dare I say you have turned into Dropper? Statistics are more often than not what you find in reality believe it or not. They are only ever a sample, often poorly compiled before being peer reviewed from an office thousands of kilometres from the source. If I tell a patient that something has a 98% success rate it means nothing when it fails. Reality is it is then 100% failure. Australia was in genetic isolation and the fact remains that more than just socio economic reasons exist for their shocking poor health You cant compare to studies done in urban America for the simple fact they do not live in the same type of poverty.

I can assure you there are no fast food shops on Palm Island (population between 2000-3000), in fact there are three businesses, Yabba Can Do Taxis, the pub and the corner store that has a shelf devoted to mentholated spirits. I can assure you their increased incidence for diabetes, glaucoma, heart disease and cancers are not due to McDonalds. In fact more often than not they suffer from malnutrition not obesity. They spend most of their days riding horses or playing football with me so that rules out a sedentary lifestyle too. How would you then explain the diabetes? I'm not trying to get into a pissing fight over semantics, I am offering you real life experience from someone who worked for Aboriginal Health and lived and breathed theses communities. It is foolish to peg all your knowledge on research for the simple fact that not every idea or hypothesis is granted funding.

Genetics plays a huge role but compiling research in this area is controversial because indigenous people don't take too kindly to being labeled "diseased". If you bothered to read the first pdf I linked it discussed the difficulties in accurate researching such ideas. I don't dismiss socio economic factors being a significant factor but I am not naive enough to ignore strong genetic role either.

 

[oldirtybizza]

It may have some relevance , but a study of Pima Indians in North America revealed a genetic mutation in 30% of the population that was responsible for lower metabolic rate, the researchers hypothesised that this genetic factor would lead to an increased likelihood of diabetes, this was not found to be the case , however there was a link between the gene and earlier onset of diabetes.

Further studies did reveal that amongst a trial of the population with and without the mutation, rthat those who had a diet higher in traditional food sources had lower rates of diabetes.
The GI of most indigenous foods is far lower than that of many foods found in modern western diets, these foods are well known to be a risk factor for both westerners and indigenous peoples.

The Pima Indian study found that neither genetics or diet alone were responsible but an interplay between those two factors and numerous others such as BMI and physical activity.

 

[Middleway]

So you've made a claim, I've rebutted with a link to information showing that the incidence of diabetes in the Aborigine population is inline with the general population, and now you want me to dig up information for your argument?

This is like population health 101 stuff Escher, allow me to enlighten you, no thanks necessary

The Rising Prevalence of Diabetes and Impaired Glucose Tolerance

The Australian Diabetes, Obesity and Lifestyle Study

Diabetes is an enormous health problem in Australian Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders; the overall prevalence is estimated to be 10–30%
Furthermore, the associated macrovascular and microvascular complications result in significant premature mortality and ill health among the Australian Indigenous population (44). Further research, including sample surveys using the AusDiab methodology, is planned to address the significant gap in our knowledge of the complex mechanisms that underlie the high prevalence of diabetes and its complications in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/5/829.full

A Genomewide Search for Type 2 Diabetes–Susceptibility Genes in Indigenous Australians

"The prevalence of type 2 diabetes among Australian residents is 7.5%; however, prevalence rates up to six times higher have been reported for indigenous Australian communities. Epidemiological evidence implicates genetic factors in the susceptibility of indigenous Australians to type 2 diabetes and supports the hypothesis of the “thrifty genotype,” but, to date, the nature of the genetic predisposition is unknown. We have ascertained clinical details from a community of indigenous Australian descent in North Stradbroke Island, Queensland. In this population, the phenotype is characterized by severe insulin resistance. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/

Diabetes is more common in Indigenous Australians than in non-Indigenous Australians

In 2004–05, 6.3% (29,874) of Indigenous Australians had diabetes, based on self-reports.
Diabetes among Indigenous Australians was 3 times as common as in non-Indigenous Australians according to the 2004–05 National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Survey, after taking into account differences in age structure (Figure 1).
Type 1 diabetes is uncommon in the Indigenous population, but there is a very high prevalence of Type 2 diabetes.
Indigenous Australians were 7 times as likely as non-Indigenous Australians to have diabetes recorded on their death certificate for the period 2003–2007.
http://www.aihw.gov.au/diabetes/populations-of-interest/

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

A wise man told me at the beginning of my career that being an academic blinds you to the real world. You have been hanging around CE&P so long that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Dare I say you have turned into Dropper? Statistics are more often than not what you find in reality believe it or not. They are only ever a sample, often poorly compiled before being peer reviewed from an office thousands of kilometres from the source. If I tell a patient that something has a 98% success rate it means nothing when it fails. Reality is it is then 100% failure. Australia was in genetic isolation and the fact remains that more than just socio economic reasons exist for their shocking poor health You cant compare to studies done in urban America for the simple fact they do not live in the same type of poverty.

If you're going to ignore the research and base your arguments on personal anecdotes, could you please inform us that you are doing so in the beginning?

It would save us some time.

As for your hypothetical patient, I'm kind of curious - I wouldn't be surprised if such safety devices like seatbelts only reduced the risk of death by 90%. Would you then not wear your seatbelt?

This is like population health 101 stuff Escher, allow me to enlighten you, no thanks necessary

How do you reconcile this with such information that I provided earlier showing no relative difference between the rates, or with environmental factors?

It may have some relevance , but a study of Pima Indians in North America revealed a genetic mutation in 30% of the population that was responsible for lower metabolic rate, the researchers hypothesised that this genetic factor would lead to an increased likelihood of diabetes, this was not found to be the case , however there was a link between the gene and earlier onset of diabetes.

Further studies did reveal that amongst a trial of the population with and without the mutation, rthat those who had a diet higher in traditional food sources had lower rates of diabetes.

This is interesting. It seems that such a gene hastens the onset of T2DM, but in the end, it's environmental factors. Kind of like how smoking 2 packs a day increases the risk of several diseases, but with people with susceptibility to those diseases will be more likely to get such effects earlier.

 

[One Thousand Words]

How do you reconcile this with such information that I provided earlier showing no relative difference between the rates, or with environmental factors?
.

Science is not absolute. I take every new report I read as a grain of salt. It is why requesting sources in this forum is often tiresome and adds nothing to a debate. You complain that I have wasted your time? A whole lot of Internet ether would have been saved if you had just accepted my statement. A single paper exists for nearly every hypothesis, most likely at least 2. Statistics is but a sample, and most results come with range. No one here said that environmental factors didn't contribute but for some reason you want to ignore the genetic contribution. When you have seen first hand the dramatic variation between certain populations you have accept the "normal" understanding of disease just doesn't stack up

I wear a seatbelt because it is expensive and inconvenient to lose my license.

 

[gimpan]

Such policies aim to redress not only overt discrimination but also the ways in which politico-economic and social conditions effect disparate allocation of resources to different racial groups. Some of these conditions are obvious, eg relegation to life in remote areas offering little employment or natural resources. Some of these are nigh invisible, eg lack of integration into 'mainstream' Aus. educational settings failing to instill aborigines with the taken for granted attitudes, mannerisms, and demeanor of favorable job candidates. And social networks are key: most hires, and nearly all hires for good jobs, occur due to social connections with others at the firm considering the candidate, particularly connections with those in managerial positions.

ebola

Mining is a huge Industry in the state I live and work in and most mining companies will openly favor Aboriginal candidates over other Australians. At first I thought this was a little unfair and discriminatory, but I have come to realize that because many Aboriginals live in shitty communities with shitty parents and have a shitty life expectancy, we need to intervene. If that means no alcohol or a zero tolerance to child abuse in Aboriginal communities so be it.

 

[gimpan]

It's the same shit up here. A few goodwill gestures and throwing money at the problem is not going to erase the damage of a few hundred years of discrimination. The imperialists took away the aboriginals way of life and their whole society and yet people somehow expect them to fit in with Australian society. Up here it's not PC to say out loud any racist remarks against natives but get a few drunken cunts together and they will bitch and moan about how the aboriginals are just lazy welfare bums, etc. These tend to be very insightful conversations indeed 8) . It is a kind of hush hush racism more or less.

Society needs to change and all people should be treated as equal. Giving them more money then good old WASPS is not going to fix the problem and unless you give them the education needed to get a decent job in todays world the cycle of poverty just continues. Granted i think education should be free for everyone. You can't make a group of people equal by throwing more money at them. If that was the case then Canadian aboriginals would be treated the same as white people but they are not.

Yeah but you cant force bad parents to be good parents, they are the ones that are getting the way of these kids education not the government.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Science is not absolute. I take every new report I read as a grain of salt. It is why requesting sources in this forum is often tiresome and adds nothing to a debate. You complain that I have wasted your time? A whole lot of Internet ether would have been saved if you had just accepted my statement.

Without sources, without evidence backing claims up, why should I just accept your beliefs over someone else?

The reason why I ask for sources is because I'm interested in what the evidence says. Personal belief is fine and dandy, but personal belief can be wrong. Anyone who has played with a spinning wheel understands how expectations and reality conflict.

As for this discussion, oldirtybizza has given me some interesting things to look up, so I don't consider it a waste.

/meta post?

 

[One Thousand Words]

Believe is different to experience. I was right, you have turned into an argumentative dropper

 

[ebola?]

Statistics is but a sample, and most results come with range.

Insofar as sampling techniques are reliable and valid, samples should generalize to populations. With two valid samples, one can then establish differences between populations.

ebola

 

[One Thousand Words]

All well and good if a community allows you to carry out the research. You are left holding your dick if an indigenous community doesn't want to be in that sample. This is often the case when it comes to genetic research. Too many ethnic groups have been tarnished in the past that many now refuse any data collected to be used. Kind of throws a lot of academics for a 6.

I hate google doctors for the same reason. I don't care if you have a handful of 20 websites telling you it is or is not possible. I have 20 yrs experience and can tell straight away that you are not a suitable candidate.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Believe is different to experience.

You've experienced a genetic cause among aborigines for diabetes?

I'm rather skeptical about this claim.

 

[bit_pattern]

You've experienced a genetic cause among aborigines for diabetes?

I'm rather skeptical about this claim.

http://scholar.google.com.au/schola...a=X&ei=W01bUsKUGsWhigfu84GABQ&ved=0CC0QgQMwAA

 

[One Thousand Words]

You've experienced a genetic cause among aborigines for diabetes?

I'm rather skeptical about this claim.

No I've experienced scawny little fuckers who eat a fish diet and spend their days running around a tropical island developing diabetes. Makes you wonder what sort of genetic mutation those fat fuckers in the city who sit on their arse and play video games all day must have to become diabetic.