TD:
No-one is claiming that God can be proven. Not on an empirical basis. But, for philosophical reasons, we accept this is deliberate... particularly in dealing with and exposing human sin. Also we wouldn't be able to have this very debate if God could be proven. Lot's of possibilities for us and this planet arise, when we remove proof of God.
There comes some kind of coalescence between religions though. There are many people, for instance, who believe in "something" but do not ascribe themselves to any religion. Then many religions meet each other in ethic and values. For instance, as a Christian I have developed tremendous respect for Bhuddism which seems to also encapsulate human spirituality.
In essence, it is a question of spirit. Some people recognise the love and beauty that exists within, and attribute it to God. Then there are denominations amongst religions (Christianity also) which are more control based, and are not of the same spirit.
Yes of course many people are bought up into a religion. They have their whole family history, influence of relatives and national traditions against them. Tremendous pressure, and heartbreaking to violate all that they've known.
However, if Christiannity is true, this is attested by those who are bought up in these countries, yet defy all expected norms, defy their traditions and upbringings, and turn to Christiannity regardless:
For instance, watch this youtube video of a Muslim girl, bought up in a Muslim family, in Saudi Arabia which is nearly 90% Muslim - who breaks through all this and finds Christ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysfr7rxlT94
Ok... it's you're understanding of the bible and how it works which is needs looking at here. These are common misconceptions on the Old Testament that you have bought to light. Forgive me for not responding in length to this right now but I've done it about 5 times on this thread now.
Recently, to PinkPaver who asked about God ordering Abraham to kill his son -
You can't prove the existence of god, you can't disprove 'his' existence either. But equally you can't disprove there is a flying spaghetti monster ruling over the universe, or a pig elephant with 6 legs.
No-one is claiming that God can be proven. Not on an empirical basis. But, for philosophical reasons, we accept this is deliberate... particularly in dealing with and exposing human sin. Also we wouldn't be able to have this very debate if God could be proven. Lot's of possibilities for us and this planet arise, when we remove proof of God.
TangerineDream said:There are so many religions, even if one is right, statistically your religion is likely to be the wrong one.
There comes some kind of coalescence between religions though. There are many people, for instance, who believe in "something" but do not ascribe themselves to any religion. Then many religions meet each other in ethic and values. For instance, as a Christian I have developed tremendous respect for Bhuddism which seems to also encapsulate human spirituality.
In essence, it is a question of spirit. Some people recognise the love and beauty that exists within, and attribute it to God. Then there are denominations amongst religions (Christianity also) which are more control based, and are not of the same spirit.
TangerineDream said:If it makes you feel better deciding the christian faith is 'the right one' fair enough... but had you been born in India or china you would likely think the religion there was the true one. .
Yes of course many people are bought up into a religion. They have their whole family history, influence of relatives and national traditions against them. Tremendous pressure, and heartbreaking to violate all that they've known.
However, if Christiannity is true, this is attested by those who are bought up in these countries, yet defy all expected norms, defy their traditions and upbringings, and turn to Christiannity regardless:
For instance, watch this youtube video of a Muslim girl, bought up in a Muslim family, in Saudi Arabia which is nearly 90% Muslim - who breaks through all this and finds Christ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysfr7rxlT94
TangerineDream said:In fact the bible is full of a discrimination as well as 'good' moral values. It's an appalling idea, heaven and hell. The very idea a good person who doesn't believe Jesus died for his sins, would go to hell while a murdering rapist who repents and believes would go to heaven is total bollocks
Don't get me started on how 'eternal' happiness/heaven is a bullshit idea too. You need lows to feel highs. Heaven would get boring.
You are cherry picking what to believe within the bible too. Why give more credibility to homosexuality being wrong but ignore the bits that say you can't wear certain clothes, or eat seafood, or animals which are 'unclean' and have hooves. Eating bacon is against the word of god.
People choose to believe some bits and not others. Cherry picking. Even if it was the word of god, by doing this it is tainted by 'man' and loses any validity it may have had. People justify their own prejudices by quoting/believing certain segments in the bible. Especially the homosexuality being morally wrong bit.
The bible is full of contradictions/judgments and bollocks along with some good moral values of course. It is so obvious it was designed/wrote by clever people back in the day to control the masses with the idea of heaven/hell. Be good or else.
I am not an atheist by the way.
Ok... it's you're understanding of the bible and how it works which is needs looking at here. These are common misconceptions on the Old Testament that you have bought to light. Forgive me for not responding in length to this right now but I've done it about 5 times on this thread now.
Recently, to PinkPaver who asked about God ordering Abraham to kill his son -
Raas said:Mrs P. God often comes across as a bit of a callous tyrant in the OT. This contradicts what we're told of God, later in the bible.
John 4:8 - Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love
So what's the dealio with him telling Abraham to kill his son?
You have to think about what the verse is saying to you. Make a differentiation between the imagery and the meaning. The practical, spiritual meaning drawn from the imagery is what God is. The imagery in the OT, which is often very tyrannical and barbarical, is a method of revealing the spiritual truth and is not to be taken literally.
Let me give you an example:
Do you know the story of Job?
Satan and God are having a dispute about whether or not he'd lose his faith if they pissed him off enough. So God says to Satan, "OK, do ya' worst!"... Satan curses the crap out of him - starts off with physical pain - "smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown"... then when that didn't work he starts off killing his wife and family...
Now, of course, the story is a load of crap. God would not have had a discussion like that with Satan, being omniscient he would have known the outcome to begin with.
But the spiritual meaning? It's talking about faith. It differentiates between a self-fulfilling faith and true faith
"Satan added a further allegation to his complaint, if you will. In Job he added the charge that Job only worshiped God for what he could get out of it. "Is it for nothing that he worships you?" Satan charges. 'You protect him every inch of the way and you bless everything he does. Of course he worships you! But when the going gets tough, he'll curse you!""
Job remained faithful through the cursing... it's also showing the devils role in trying to break faith. It took the implementation of a made-up story, to demonstrate and build our understanding of faith.
Likewise, as is a lot of the OT, the imagery is not necessarily real, but it is used to make a real point.
Abraham killing his own son is particularly interesting, because later God must sacrifice his own son Jesus.
Again, it is unlikely God actually told Abraham to do this... but the story is teaching the reader an understanding of Obediance to God and making sacrifice to God. In this story Abraham is making the true sacrifice that God later makes through Jesus.
The OT is a book to build, develop and give an understanding of faith in God... but it's really important to understand the stories are most often allegorical.
It's quite a fascinating book to read, when you start to break through the exterior... and see what the stories are really saying
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