The American Pledge of Allegiance

[TheAppleCore]

I decided to carry this topic from the Social thread in Psychedelic Drugs over to P&S.

Discourse thus far:

I have a question for you guys.

What do you think of the idea of a mandatory morning Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America for schoolchildren? Is it good, bad, or inconsequential, and why?

Not sure if I am allowed to voice my opinion as a Dutchman, but if I can put it more generally: I think people should take it easy with patriottism, it is fine if you feel proud of your country because things make you feel that way but is it good to be told to feel that pride? I know that singing the national anthem is not the same as directly telling someone that but it seems like it is in the same spirit.
I think it is good that children learn the words and melody of their national anthem as a part of cultural heritage, when to sing it should IMO be less organised and more something that you do when things happen that makes you all want to do it.
Patriottism is a tricky thing. Unconditional love can be beautiful because it can connect people on an incredibly deep level so that they are bound to have each other, only to lose them when intense shit hits the fan. That is profound and indispensibly functional for family.
But a country IMO only deserves a small token of unconditional love to at least form a community by default, if nothing else. If you take it too far, people start becoming prone to support and justify even questionable behavior. That amount of unity can make itself impervious to injust policy, because unconditionality is blinding. Loyalty to a parent can be great, it helps to avoid conflict because interests are streamlined and synced. But when a parent becomes harmful, this loyalty can stand in the way of resolution. So the loyalty is only a good thing when it comes to minor and inconsequential things. Integrity should be celebrated and corruption should be subject to scrupules. Now that I've pointed out that connection, I leave it to see if you think where it applies.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm surprised nobody else has an opinion on this. Personally, I absolutely agree that caution should be observed against excessive patriotism. In my opinion, a mandatory pledge of allegiance almost implies that the country and its culture and government should be worshipped blindly and unconditionally, which is not giving children enough healthy skepticism.

I think it's great to love your country's people, in the same way that Jesus Christ said "love thy enemy". But, in that case, why don't we ask American schoolchildren to pledge allegiance to the entire world? Why ONLY their own local society? Isn't that a bit self-centered?

I was arguing this with my sister and mom, and they looked at me like I was a lunatic...

 

[Maya]

Doesn't every country have this "Pledge of Allegiance to the flag? I dont see anything wrong with this and as a matter of fact, find it necessary for every citizen of any country to be loyal and protect it. I see this as a comparison to your family. Don't you pledge to protect your family first before anything else? It applies to pledging your allegiance to your country first before any other countries.

 

[TheAppleCore]

I see this as a comparison to your family. Don't you pledge to protect your family first before anything else?

Naturally, yes. But, is that technically right? Or are all people created equal, and deserve equal love and protection? I'm not sure of the answer myself.

 

[What 23]

I believe, Applecore, that we should definitely keep in mind and move toward what you say. It is the most right... But Maya also as you agree has a point.

But... I don't think little children are old enough to get it. Before even reading this thread, the post made me think this. It seems a bit like Nazi indoctrination to me. Its wrong. The world does need to become a more global society. That's the way its going. Maybe we should, for the principal of forward movement, develop a "greater" pledge, to reach to greater heights. Give that precedence, over a "flag" of one 230 year old nation (200-something). Something that knows how to bend survives. We need to teach children to bend the right ways, not try to indoctrinate them... They aren't old enough to pledge themselves. Maybe when they can buy a beer Or something, for example.

I didn't know it was mandatory. A kid in our class, growing up- Danny Rose, got to stay seated (Never rose, eh? I wonder what Daniel means... just curiousity). I never knew why. And he was made fun of. Liberty and Justice for all aye? What did we know?? I'm also guilty.)
Something religion related I think, is the reason he didn't have to stand.

Still... I was coming from the outside looking generally at pledging allegiance... But what is mentioned in the pledge of allegiance ends with "for all"- which basically accomplishes what we should go for... Liberty and Justice... for all. It can't be any better really. We just need to expand that beyond this nation that likely wont be the "same" forever. Say this, but also extend the liberty and justice to include literally ALL- make sure to instill that into consciousness, if we instill ourselves/our young nation.

But this may already occur... The United States has been a conduit (and vehicle) of change, and of this philosophy... Not that it didn't exist before it, and not that it's actions are always perfect... But I would say its reach has been the furthest. But you can trace it back to England, and rest of Europe, and yada, yada...

 

[peterjones]

Allegiance to a flag or what the flag represents?

If merely a flag, then that is silly. Its equivalent to the material that makes loin clothes.
If what the flag represents, then I'm dumbfounded. What do flags represent? Plots of land? Clusters of people with no underlying commonality other than they are people who live on plots of land?

 

[Tromps]

The original Pledge of Allegiance was published as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day and his arrival to the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism by selling flags to public schools. According to author Margarette S. Miller this was in line with Upham's vision which he "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into the Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'" -origins

Unity, honor, loyalty. The only country I would fight for if the world were to break into all out war, is the USA.

I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it Stands, One Nation under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

 

[peterjones]

The original Pledge of Allegiance was published as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day and his arrival to the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism by selling flags to public schools. According to author Margarette S. Miller this was in line with Upham's vision which he "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into the Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'" -origins

Unity, honor, loyalty. The only country I would fight for if the world were to break into all out war, is the USA.

I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it Stands, One Nation under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

I hope that you do not take this offensively nor defensively, but neutrally. I'm going to try undermine the parts that I bolded.

We are currently the new human models. We are better in nearly every way to the old models. This stuff you quoted, was written a long time ago, by old models. They were smart guys at the time, but not smart guys compared to today's standards.

The youth shouldn't love their country. A country is a plot of land - a subset of the Earth. Loving only one's country neglects the interests of other human beings, and the planet we all share. We shouldn't even love the Earth - that would be strange. But we should respect the Earth and its inhabitants.

The principles and ideals of early founders are old principles and ideals. In American culture, they have been made sacred. Even to question or doubt is off limits. Good think I'm not American. This suggests that someone, we cannot ever improve or revise old principles and ideals. We can and we should.

Every God-believing nation believes that God watches over their nation.

Indivisible? Not true.
Liberty and Justice? Check out Noam Chomsky on this issue. He has outspokenly argued that both terms are used incorrectly. Its not liberty or justice if the utility of any action is not fairly balanced for every interest group. If American interest groups outweigh the interest groups of others simply because of the fact that it is American, then that isn't liberty or justice. Its tyranny and injustice.

 

[-=SS=-]

I think it's fine to have patriotism, just so long as it's not blind patriotism. When you force kids to accept the authority without also instilling in them the ability to think critically and openly about that authority, then I have a problem with it. Same goes for parents who demand loyalty either directly or indirectly.. if your parents (or government) are full of shit then the child has the absolute right to refuse loyalty based upon reasoned argument or intuitive hunch (but unable to vocalize the reason).

As for pledging to help society or the world.. I don't think other countries or cultures would necessarily appreciate it.. like the USA pledging to help the Muslim nations. That would just go down so well haha. Rather than trying to force your way upon another, or becoming some liberal daydreamer who opens themselves and nation to attack by being weak, the way forward is to make your own nation strong, resolute, and based on sound principles.. like setting a good example others will see it and be attracted to it or want to recreate it in their own nations. Eventually that way of being will prevail and we will all live happily ever after.

 

[Maya]

I think it's fine to have patriotism, just so long as it's not blind patriotism. When you force kids to accept the authority without also instilling in them the ability to think critically and openly about that authority, then I have a problem with it. Same goes for parents who demand loyalty either directly or indirectly.. if your parents (or government) are full of shit then the child has the absolute right to refuse loyalty based upon reasoned argument or intuitive hunch (but unable to vocalize the reason).

As for pledging to help society or the world.. I don't think other countries or cultures would necessarily appreciate it.. like the USA pledging to help the Muslim nations. That would just go down so well haha. Rather than trying to force your way upon another, or becoming some liberal daydreamer who opens themselves and nation to attack by being weak, the way forward is to make your own nation strong, resolute, and based on sound principles.. like setting a good example others will see it and be attracted to it or want to recreate it in their own nations. Eventually that way of being will prevail and we will all live happily ever after.

+1 Agreed! Couldn't have explained it better than this

 

[Tromps]

I hope that you do not take this offensively nor defensively, but neutrally. I'm going to try undermine the parts that I bolded.

We are currently the new human models. We are better in nearly every way to the old models. This stuff you quoted, was written a long time ago, by old models. They were smart guys at the time, but not smart guys compared to today's standards.

The youth shouldn't love their country. A country is a plot of land - a subset of the Earth. Loving only one's country neglects the interests of other human beings, and the planet we all share. We shouldn't even love the Earth - that would be strange. But we should respect the Earth and its inhabitants.

The principles and ideals of early founders are old principles and ideals. In American culture, they have been made sacred. Even to question or doubt is off limits. Good think I'm not American. This suggests that someone, we cannot ever improve or revise old principles and ideals. We can and we should.

Every God-believing nation believes that God watches over their nation.

Indivisible? Not true.
Liberty and Justice? Check out Noam Chomsky on this issue. He has outspokenly argued that both terms are used incorrectly. Its not liberty or justice if the utility of any action is not fairly balanced for every interest group. If American interest groups outweigh the interest groups of others simply because of the fact that it is American, then that isn't liberty or justice. Its tyranny and injustice.

To me, a few hundred years ago isn't that long ago and the same virtues and principles that made this country great can still be found today. I'm not literally pledging allegiance to a plot of land (maybe symbolically, since on this plot of land is my home). Like I said, I pledge to the virtues and principles that have made our country rise to the most powerful and advanced nation in the world in a mere couple hundred years, and I salute to all the people who have served for our freedom and have built this amazing country.

Sure you're right that every God believing nation believes they are under God. And so they all are. I don't object.

So far the USA has been indivisible, the Civil War almost broke us into two, but until or unless something literally divides our country into two we are indivisible.

Justice? I received justice fairly recently, I was the victim of a random crime months back and the person who assaulted me had his day in court a few weeks ago, was convicted and fairly punished. I'm not complaining. Liberty? I don't feel any of rights or freedoms are being taken from me, I certainly don't feel suppressed at all. YMMV?

I'm proud to say I live in America. Perhaps it's easier to say when you actually live here

Good post -=SS=-