Opioids Do different brands/formulations of hydrocodone make one feel different?

[3x054w7]

Hello all,
In my experience being prescribed hydrocodone for various reasons, I remember a time (a good many months ago) when I had white 5/500s and yellow 10/325s. I weighed a good bit less than I do now (currently I am 170 lbs at 5'10"). Anyway, when I would take these (say 2 of the 5s or 1 of the Norcos) I would get this warm fuzzy feeling that I am seeing people constantly describe about hydrocodone, where you feel 100% zen, are happy simply doing what you're doing and being yourself, like talking to people a lot, can really connect with music, and you just wanna be nice to everyone and be happy while your brain feels all nice and buzzed and your body is relaxed.
Fast forward to today, I have yellow watson 10/325s. I don't know why, but when I take these, which I need to take 2 to feel the effects (and trying to potentiate with things like GFJ, tonic water, antihistamines, tagamet has only killed any high I could possibly get) I do not get that classic hydro high. Rather, my voice box becomes really weak and I can't speak up as if I've lost my voice, my brain gets a buzz that isn't terrible but isn't really enjoyable either, I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't get a euphoria as far as I can tell, and I just feel really downed like a zombie, not happy but not depressed, just unable to feel much emotion really.
I guess the best way to describe it is that when I used to take hydro I would get the classic hydro high that everyone loves, and when I take hydro now I just turn into a boring zombie.
Could this be because of the discrepancies in pills that I am taking (which generic brand, the formulation of 5/500 vs 10/325, etc.) or could it be a permanent change in my body chemistry?

 

[Master_Khan]

it's called tolerance and increasing your dosage in response to it is the fast track to trouble. It's never going to feel the way it used to, accepting that will save you from a world of hurt. One of the things you can do is try not to take your next dose until you really feel that you need it. Once you start running the doses together and taking two or more at a time it's just an exercise in futility.

 

[3x054w7]

it's called tolerance and increasing your dosage in response to it is the fast track to trouble. It's never going to feel the way it used to, accepting that will save you from a world of hurt. One of the things you can do is try not to take your next dose until you really feel that you need it. Once you start running the doses together and taking two or more at a time it's just an exercise in futility.

Hey man, thanks for responding.
Tbh, I don't think it could be tolerance because there was a significant span of time between when I was taking hydrocodone before and now. I'm actually more inclined to think that there are indeed discrepancies in the effects of different pills by different pharmaceutical companies. Also, perhaps (and I doubt this) but perhaps expired hydrocodone actually does have different effects from non-expired, as the watson 853 yellows that I have atm I think are expired by a few months. 30 minutes ago I popped a 10/500 Amneal hydro and this feels significantly better as compared to the watson 853s I've been taking and has significant effect for just 10 mg.

 

[Crashing]

I'm in this camp - Never noticed any difference.

 

[papaown]

Generic/name brand are 100% identical. Pills are regulated and have to meet extremely strict standards. The only difference you could feel in different brands of hydrocodone pills are the amount of acetaminophen (Tylenol) in them. A 10/325 Norco is the exact same as a generic hydrocodone 10/325. It more than likely is tolerance man. Also, could be the amount of acidity in your stomach that could be hampering your amount of painkiller absorbed. Opiates enjoy a very basic environment in your stomach so make sure and take a Tagamet (Also inhibits the hydrocodone breakdown and provides some acidity reduction) an hour before you pop your pills, and 30 minutes before take about 2 grams of Tums (2 of the extra strength Tums).

EDIT : I meant 2 of the maximum strength Tums (the ones that are 1000mg a piece). :D

 

[3x054w7]

Generic/name brand are 100% identical. Pills are regulated and have to meet extremely strict standards. The only difference you could feel in different brands of hydrocodone pills are the amount of acetaminophen (Tylenol) in them. A 10/325 Norco is the exact same as a generic hydrocodone 10/325. It more than likely is tolerance man. Also, could be the amount of acidity in your stomach that could be hampering your amount of painkiller absorbed. Opiates enjoy a very basic environment in your stomach so make sure and take a Tagamet (Also inhibits the hydrocodone breakdown and provides some acidity reduction) an hour before you pop your pills, and 30 minutes before take about 2 grams of Tums (2 of the extra strength Tums).

EDIT : I meant 2 of the maximum strength Tums (the ones that are 1000mg a piece). :D

This is something that confuses me so I'm glad you brought it up. I have tried following opiate potentiation guides (every step including tagamet, quinine, grapefruit juice, clorophenirimine, diphenhydramine, extra strength tums, dxm) and as far as I could tell it killed the opiate completely. People say that these things will occupy the liver so that there is more of the free opiate floating around for longer, but doesn't that mean that the liver will process less of the opiate and therefore the intensity of the opiate will be reduced? In my experience, the more acidic the stomach is, the harder the kick you get from the opiate, and the more basic the stomach is, the less intensity and duration you get from the opiate. I don't know why it works like this for me, I'm sure I am doing something wrong or misunderstanding something, so can someone correct me where I am wrong?

 

[papaown]

This is something that confuses me so I'm glad you brought it up. I have tried following opiate potentiation guides (every step including tagamet, quinine, grapefruit juice, clorophenirimine, diphenhydramine, extra strength tums, dxm) and as far as I could tell it killed the opiate completely. People say that these things will occupy the liver so that there is more of the free opiate floating around for longer, but doesn't that mean that the liver will process less of the opiate and therefore the intensity of the opiate will be reduced? In my experience, the more acidic the stomach is, the harder the kick you get from the opiate, and the more basic the stomach is, the less intensity and duration you get from the opiate. I don't know why it works like this for me, I'm sure I am doing something wrong or misunderstanding something, so can someone correct me where I am wrong?

It's the opposite, Tagamet won't hinder the opiate, it will extend the duration of the "high" and actually cause more to be absorbed since it will reduce the stomach acid.

Taking grapefruit juice at the EXACT time that you take your hydrocodone will hinder it because juice in itself is acidic.

If you want a good method for potentiation follow this precisely:

1 hour before take 2 Tagamet (or offbrand Walmart Cimetide, that's what I use) with 1 medium sized glass of grapefruit juice (not from concentrate. Florida's Natural or Simply Grapefruit brand

30 minutes before take 2000mg of Tums (2 maximum strength, or 3 extra strength tums)


It'll work like a charm. Never take your opiates with juice or soda, basically never anything besides water. Also, never eat directly before or after an opiate (unless it's morphine. Morphine enjoys very fatty meals, and actually potentiates it.)


EDIT: Opiates actually absorb less in an acidic invronment, so nope you need a very basic stomach for the most absorption. And also, never use milk. Milk acts as an antacid temporarily, but it will actually produce more acid later on. Always take your opiates with only water.

 

[papaown]

And in addition, I find that antihistamines (Doxylamine, Diphenhydramine, Dramamine, and etc) seem to increase the "nod" effect to opiates, but it tends to actually take away from the experience to me. Semi synthetic opioids such as Hydro and Oxy (my favorite) energize me more and don't make me nod, so adding an antihistamine takes away from the experience. Even with opioids that are sedating and I can actually nod on (heroin, morphine, codeine), I still don't prefer anti histamines.

Also be careful if you take opiates on a very regular basis, your stomach can get addicted to antacids and will need them when you choose to stop your opiate intake.

 

[3x054w7]

It's the opposite, Tagamet won't hinder the opiate, it will extend the duration of the "high" and actually cause more to be absorbed since it will reduce the stomach acid.

Taking grapefruit juice at the EXACT time that you take your hydrocodone will hinder it because juice in itself is acidic.

If you want a good method for potentiation follow this precisely:

1 hour before take 2 Tagamet (or offbrand Walmart Cimetide, that's what I use) with 1 medium sized glass of grapefruit juice (not from concentrate. Florida's Natural or Simply Grapefruit brand

30 minutes before take 2000mg of Tums (2 maximum strength, or 3 extra strength tums)


It'll work like a charm. Never take your opiates with juice or soda, basically never anything besides water. Also, never eat directly before or after an opiate (unless it's morphine. Morphine enjoys very fatty meals, and actually potentiates it.)


EDIT: Opiates actually absorb less in an acidic invronment, so nope you need a very basic stomach for the most absorption. And also, never use milk. Milk acts as an antacid temporarily, but it will actually produce more acid later on. Always take your opiates with only water.

I greatly appreciate the info, mate. I will try potentiating again with the order that you state. One point of confusion for me is the grapefruit juice. I read conflicting information about it. I have seen many times that people say "don't buy the stuff that is from concentrate" and I have also seen people say that "the stuff from concentrate actually contains more of the necessary enzymes." Which is it? And I also see constant recommendation for white grapefruit juice but never standard red grapefruit juice. Is it only white that works? I was planning to buy "Simply Grapefruit" from the supermarket but it was red so I went for a 100% from concentrate White GFJ instead.

 

[papaown]

I have read the White GFJ part, but I have had good success with not from concentrate regular GFJ. I wouldn't see how the white would be beneficial in any way over traditional ruby red. The from concentrate part I have read the same stuff also, but I can't fathom how the from concentrate of anything could be better than natural juice lol. All opinion I suppose

 

[missmeyet?]

Generic/name brand are 100% identical. Pills are regulated and have to meet extremely strict standards. The only difference you could feel in different brands of hydrocodone pills are the amount of acetaminophen (Tylenol) in them. A 10/325 Norco is the exact same as a generic hydrocodone 10/325. It more than likely is tolerance man. Also, could be the amount of acidity in your stomach that could be hampering your amount of painkiller absorbed. Opiates enjoy a very basic environment in your stomach so make sure and take a Tagamet (Also inhibits the hydrocodone breakdown and provides some acidity reduction) an hour before you pop your pills, and 30 minutes before take about 2 grams of Tums (2 of the extra strength Tums).

EDIT : I meant 2 of the maximum strength Tums (the ones that are 1000mg a piece). :D

Ok, first of all, all generic medications are NOT exactly the same by any means. There are several reasons why this is true. I have been a nurse for almost 20 years and we were never "told this" in school but a couple of years ago my pharmacist told me that all generics are not equal. I had script for hydro 10s. Usually when I picked them up they were the blue "footballs". One day I went to get them and she told me they were all out of stock of the ones I normally got and did I want to wait til the shipment arrived the next day. I told her I guessed it didn't really matter to me, hydro 10 is hydro 10. She then said that most people wanted the blue ones and were waiting and when I questioned this she explained that though they have same active ingredients, there is a range of bioavailability that they each were required to fall in. Some generics were at the top of that range, some are at the bottom of that range. This range is a difference of 45%. Therefore some generic drugs can vary in bioavailability in as much as a 45% difference!.

Also the inactive ingredients can play a big part in how well the drug is metabolized and affect the bioavailability.

Please read this article for the complete explanation. It is not something that is widely published but most any pharmacist will confirm it if you ask.

http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/01/10/generic-drugs-quality/

As for the cimetidine and grapefruit juice it has much less to do with the condition of the acidity of the stomach as the fact that they are CYP450 inhibitors. Think of these more as something that clogs/occupies the enzymes that clear the opiates out of your system faster. Therefore the hydros stick around longer and stronger.

 

[Crashing]

Ok, first of all, all generic medications are NOT exactly the same by any means. There are several reasons why this is true. I have been a nurse for almost 20 years and we were never "told this" in school but a couple of years ago my pharmacist told me that all generics are not equal. I had script for hydro 10s. Usually when I picked them up they were the blue "footballs". One day I went to get them and she told me they were all out of stock of the ones I normally got and did I want to wait til the shipment arrived the next day. I told her I guessed it didn't really matter to me, hydro 10 is hydro 10. She then said that most people wanted the blue ones and were waiting and when I questioned this she explained that though they have same active ingredients, there is a range of bioavailability that they each were required to fall in. Some generics were at the top of that range, some are at the bottom of that range. This range is a difference of 45%. Therefore some generic drugs can vary in bioavailability in as much as a 45% difference!.

Also the inactive ingredients can play a big part in how well the drug is metabolized and affect the bioavailability.

Please read this article for the complete explanation. It is not something that is widely published but most any pharmacist will confirm it if you ask.

http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/01/10/generic-drugs-quality/

Chew your pills.

 

[missmeyet?]

Chew your pills.

That won't make a difference if you have the lower quality brand. You still will not get the same amount of hydro (or oxy or whatever) as you would with the higher quality ones.

 

[MsPilly]

You would think that those yellow Watsons would be better than the generic white Hydros but in reality, I think it's safe to say you have built up a tolerance? Hard to say. I know before my tolerance was so high that those Watsons used to get me feeling really good. The blue ones too. I can't remember if the blue football shaped ones were Watsons too or what. The yellow Watsons don't do shit for me now. I can take like 3-4 at a time and all I feel is tired. Maybe you should stop now while you're ahead...

 

[Crashing]

That won't make a difference if you have the lower quality brand. You still will not get the same amount of hydro (or oxy or whatever) as you would with the higher quality ones.

The bioavailability of hydrocodone does not change, i assume what you're speaking of is the fillers and binders causing incomplete absorption thus translating into what seems to be less bioavailability. I can't see how the molecule that is hydrocodone at one end of the room could be more or less bioavailable than the hydrocodone molecule on the other side of the room., unless there are isometric variables at play.

 

[XThexXTank]

Yeah people always sayin how differnet blues will get them more or less high. If it aint tolerance all i can think is if you compare how much fillers an binders there is in em. LIke the v's are real small an the a's are like real fat. If you snort them then all the extra filler can block absorption an not get someone as high an then they be like yeah i dont want those they are garbage. Give them to me haha.

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

Ok, first of all, all generic medications are NOT exactly the same by any means. There are several reasons why this is true. I have been a nurse for almost 20 years and we were never "told this" in school but a couple of years ago my pharmacist told me that all generics are not equal. I had script for hydro 10s. Usually when I picked them up they were the blue "footballs". One day I went to get them and she told me they were all out of stock of the ones I normally got and did I want to wait til the shipment arrived the next day. I told her I guessed it didn't really matter to me, hydro 10 is hydro 10. She then said that most people wanted the blue ones and were waiting and when I questioned this she explained that though they have same active ingredients, there is a range of bioavailability that they each were required to fall in. Some generics were at the top of that range, some are at the bottom of that range. This range is a difference of 45%. Therefore some generic drugs can vary in bioavailability in as much as a 45% difference!.

Also the inactive ingredients can play a big part in how well the drug is metabolized and affect the bioavailability.

Please read this article for the complete explanation. It is not something that is widely published but most any pharmacist will confirm it if you ask.

http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/01/10/generic-drugs-quality/

As for the cimetidine and grapefruit juice it has much less to do with the condition of the acidity of the stomach as the fact that they are CYP450 inhibitors. Think of these more as something that clogs/occupies the enzymes that clear the opiates out of your system faster. Therefore the hydros stick around longer and stronger.

No.

hydrocodone is hydrocodone is hydrocodone.

If you crush every pill you take those fillers and binders hinder nothing...

If you get vicodin or watson, if they both have 10 mgs of hydrocodone... you crush them up, the absorbtion will be exactly the same.

There are standards they do have to abide by... and a set quality is one of them as well as the effectiveness of the original formulation. This is applied to instant release...

Barring that statement... the company making the OP formula should be sued.......... but they have a loophole...

 

[ErgicMergic]

The only generics I didn't like were Mallinckrodt hydrocodones, but their issue is not lack of potency, they are just pressed together too hard, making absorption rates much slower. Mixing them in water or a bit of soda can help dissolve them in to an oral solution.

Also, I had major issues with Mylan diazepam, both in questionable quality control leading to somewhat weak diazepam, but my major gripe with them was the fact that they crumbled, when I was tapering with 5mg tablets, they would crumble into tiny pieces when I attempted to cut them with my pill cutter.


Other than that, I think generics are great and have never had a problem with them, and am very annoyed at the prescriptions I have that still have no generics, as they are significantly more expensive for the same exact drug, most are even shaped and colored just like brand name drugs! Fill generic, support local mom-n-pop pharmacies, and save your money.

 

[missmeyet?]

The bioavailability of hydrocodone does not change, i assume what you're speaking of is the fillers and binders causing incomplete absorption thus translating into what seems to be less bioavailability. I can't see how the molecule that is hydrocodone at one end of the room could be more or less bioavailable than the hydrocodone molecule on the other side of the room., unless there are isometric variables at play.

You are correct, the BA of hydro itself does not change but there is a difference in the different brands. They do not all have the same effects.

 

[missmeyet?]

No.

hydrocodone is hydrocodone is hydrocodone.

If you crush every pill you take those fillers and binders hinder nothing...

If you get vicodin or watson, if they both have 10 mgs of hydrocodone... you crush them up, the absorbtion will be exactly the same.

There are standards they do have to abide by... and a set quality is one of them as well as the effectiveness of the original formulation. This is applied to instant release...

Barring that statement... the company making the OP formula should be sued.......... but they have a loophole...

Ok. Hydro is hydro...no doubt. But all generics ARE NOT equal. Read the article. Check the data. Ask your pharmacist