TDS Opioid Substitutio is Wrong

[adder]

I know the first thing a lot of people thought seeing the title was "bullshit, methadone/buprenorphine saved my life". Well, maybe they did, maybe they just make you believe it. It's a more socially accepted way of being intoxicated with opioids, at least to an extent. I stopped feeling Suboxone almost completely in my head ~1 week after entering the program, I guess, but the problems caused by opioids remained (constipation, problems with peeing, not to mention naloxone-like side effects) + small pupils and an obvious need to dose every day. I once felt withdrawal ~30 hours after last 8mg dose after months of being on 8mg daily - now I can say that it's physically impossible unless you do it with your will, just like some people miraculously win over cancer when normally they'd die. Methadone dependence is obvious, it's easy to get stoned with it no matter the tolerance, the only ceiling is blacking out and not waking up. One gets definitely dependent on both on them.

Methadone is famous for its long half-life. I had to dose it twice a day to feel it all the time, but the withdrawal was a never-ending story. It seemed to me literally that methadone was in every cell of my body, I guess this paranoia made me disgusted with the syrup, right now I can't say how I could be dying like that having over 200ml at hand (which I poured out later!). It wasn't really intense, but it was tiring exactly due to being lighter. Heroin withdrawal is like feeling you're alive compared to methadone withdrawal which is like complete exhaustion with mild paranoia and suicidal thoughts. Moreover, when I took it daily, I was 24/7 under its effects compared to the morphine/heroin being relatively a see-saw. Experiencing intense rushes is also equal to intensing experience downs, it's the depressive part, but paradoxically working against getting used too much as it happens with substitutes - 24/7 somehow affected in a way that was originally seen as "bad" by the society, and now it's 100% legal and acceptable. And one day you realize you don't fit even more, because they so much wanted you to fit. Oh, how unlucky! When I got off methadone, I realized how foggy my mind was and how it really affected my cognition and emotions, almost like a brain zap at times. I've never experienced anything like that with usually i.v.'ed full agonists and similar ones.

Suboxone on the other hand lets me think clearly (I can tell no difference between being on 8mg or 1mg or 60mg morphine with Suboxone tolerance). But just as with methadone I could feel that even 4mg for 2-3 days was "too much", my body felt oversaturated with buprenorphine. Yet there must have been some weakly noticeable difference between doses if I preferred 4mg to 2mg. But by how little margin if as a matter of fact I never felt high off it? If I got ~4mg into my blood out of 8mg (I stopped holding it for 30-60 minutes only a month ago, I guess), then it's like ~240mg of morphine! Jesus, that's how much I injected during the time when I was the most tolerant. How could I do such a stupid thing and rise my tolerance over what morphine ever caused, actually getting no mental effects! I've been craving all the time on Suboxone, I had like 2 months of peace, to some extent, and that's all. I didn't shoot up earlier, because I knew it was pointless being on 8mg. So I basically tapered it down to 0.5-1mg a day to be able to feel opioids I was originally addicted too. No way my old doses would work. I'm now more tolerant to opioids than I ever was. Even the highest dose of methadone probably didn't produce such tolerance in me (at most ~80mg a day). So have I been doing MORE feeling NOTHING? More tolerance, more harm to opioid receptors or drugs really made me dumb, they're simply more downregulated.

My point is that it's our culture and the society that made me think it is best for me to quit opioids (it actually works for any other drug) so much that I couldn't even see that through the process of "treatment"/"healing" I actually did a much bigger harm to myself than by the original act I felt punished for. People are more likely to give a dollar to a begging alcoholic than to a begging drug addict, so there's more tolerance for alcoholism than there is for opioid addiction. I don't know the history of the US, but it looks to me that prohibition didn't work out mostly because there were people unhappy that other people make a lot of profit on illegal alcohol. Making alcohol legal again brought money back to the people actually running the country as the state. Every other drug could be legal if only the state didn't fear that it'd harm their interest. It's all money-oriented, because money is the gate to everywhere.

I let the system use my hands to make myself even more physically and socially addicted to opioids (definitely not psychologically, earlier I imagined no life with no opioid, now I can cut myself from the emotions I don't like). To get Suboxone I have to visit the program every 7 days to collect it from people who think that drug addiction is something humiliating (thus even if unwittingly they diminish me). I've never had such a problem with any person selling drugs to me. Most of them were normal at least to such extent that we could always chat about every day life with nobody making anyone feel guilty. So how is the maintenance program better to a regular addict than his/her own dealer? I don't know how bad a dealer must be for anyone to prefer the program for sharing his/her addiction. Why do they all want me to stop so much if at the same time they say with their looks "we don't want you in our society with your faults". The society as a whole makes the state at least pretend to do something about the problem of addiction, it is on one hand definitely not natural for a human to consume/ingest any "pure" chemical, but on the other hand everything that any human does is perfectly human because anything human does makes it human by action thereof. (does it make sense? ) My current situation has been directly caused by my so-called treatment. I'm a victim because I was incepted with the right image of life as a child and no matter what I do and how I try, I always end up feeling guilty, although I do no harm to the others and in fact I function much better on opioids, because they let my mind off controlling some emotions, and by that I was actually more of a member of the society, I'm more useful for the society, and the society was more useful for me, people wanted me, I wanted people, now I only see both me and them as guilty of something.

I know this all may look life a sophisticated disquisition of an addict that wants to justify his addiction (or rather the fact that the act of taking something is perceived as affronting a man with dignity). But really, my treatment caused much more pain for me than taking opioids actually and the harm emotionally and socially was also much bigger in the long run. What is life supposed to be? I guess, whatever makes sense to you makes your life supposed be that. I had hobbies on opioids, and as the depression worsens as the "treatment" lasts, I'm completely unproductive. I don't want to live, but I don't want to die either. And I have no idea how I should live to at least accept my life if not be happy with it. When I got on substitutes, I started using other drugs more often or even started those I hadn't liked. How did it make my life better? And the whole idea of maintenance program is making the life better for addicts and getting them off the faces of normal members of the society when they're "high". Also, programs make addicts gather in one place, so it's a bit like making an isolated island to hold addicts there. How could anyone even think being in such a place would make someone be really back in the society as a member equal to all other member? I'm not asking here whether being a part of the society is good or bad. We're by default supposed to function in the society, so by default it's good whatever it means.

When I eventually realized the line "the choices you've made are valid because they were yours" isn't clichéd, there's now nothing left of what I valued in the past in myself, I guess, because I can't see any confidence in myself, although I'm well aware that most people would be more than happy to simply be me, even having these addiction. I'm not narcissistic, I can simply observe and notice that people with similar attitudes, characters, and personalities do great. I don't, because I started being "bad" due to my addiction before I could get a degree and make career, maybe I would still be without a woman as I'm a difficult person to live happily with, but otherwise recognized as successful, just not yet accomplished as a man, but on the run. People succeed being forced to start from harder positions and I did so poor. How is it possible if I feel that I've been doing something not even thinking whether I want it or not almost whole my life? I've been telling myself I'm guilty my whole life. It doesn't fit my general sense of harmony in the world any more. Now I realized it's simply impossible that I was 100% wrong, socially dysfunctional from the very beginning. After all it's the society that shapes you, that's part of growing up. The society must have done something wrong shaping me, otherwise I wouldn't respond doing things the society perceives as making a person less worth. I couldn't have stopped caring about my opinion just like that with no reason. And yet I got myself into another trap of being a good member of the society. I found a cure for what is wrong between me and the society, the society didn't like it, I felt too much not accepted, and the treatment ruins my life. Is it even possible to learn to be happy from one's own life lonely not having any deep relations with other people? I can't live happily with people, so if there's no other way, then what's the point of my life then? Nobody understands that I've been gradually stopping caring about everything as it's not in human nature to enjoy Sisyphean labour, people must see the point of something to achieve.

I know there's a lot of philosophy in there, but it's really how I see the world and these are real problems, no matter how funny it may seem when everything is all right. I didn't put it in Philosophy & Spirituality, because I don't know if it's not too drug-related.

 

[missmeyet?]

Its perfectly ok that it is your opinion that opiate substitution is not right for you. It is not a correct statement to say "it is wrong" in general. For some people it is a lifesaver. Many of the problems today, IMO, originates from people pushing what they think is "wrong or right" onto others.

 

[adder]

I don't mean substitution's bad in general for everyone. I don't mean if to fit somewhere is good or bad. In my case substitution simply wasn't harm reduction. If I hadn't let myself be manipulated, I'd be better or I wouldn't be at all. It fits my general sense of harmony much more than my current state of mind and body. The bigger problem in the background of my story is the state delivering the drug for selling. It's widely known that methadone is on the black market, is cheaper than heroin, so some people here choose methadone not because of substitution as I did, but simply to make heir habit cost less. Are the benefits really greater than additional problems? I must admit again on this board that another stereotype ruled my past life, sadly. That means nobody's actually guilty, and thus my frustration leads to more suffering which is pointless.

I forgot to mention Suboxone and Subutex on the black market. One 8mg pill can be a gram of heroin (not more than 10% pure) in money, 8 opioid-naive people could split it and still all get high for a long period of time relatively. And most of those people wouldn't have got hooken on opioids if buprenorphine wasn't there at hand, because considering how close heroin niche is around here, mostly your social status and place of birth determine whether you know where to get heroin from and can do it or not. I must say I really sought heroin at one point and I found it, I got there a bit from the "outside".

 

[RobotRipping]

perhaps it was wrong for you; you have to be accountable for your actions though. This isn't about fitting in with society or being accepted while on main. drugs vs street drugs. You could be a heroin addict and so long as you didn't get into trouble, always had enough money to support it and were as safe as possible, you'd probably have a much better quality of life than with methadone or suboxone. And not a single person (outside of where you get the drugs from) would have to know about it. You'd be fully accepted in society, there are plenty of examples of drug addicts who were very high functioning and no one gave a shit.

I don't see how you were manipulated, you likely knew fully well what you were getting into with maintenance drugs, they are opioids, you may as well just stay on any opioid but due to price/availability it's not practical for people to remain on their DOC.

It's not an ideal system by any means, there's no arguing that. It's set up in such a way to keep addicts on maint. drugs for life, as that brings in the most money. Most addicts are happy to comply, of course though, depression does set in, complacency takes over and before you know it, life isn't the same. That part sucks but that's opiate addiction.

Rehabs/maintenance programs are set up in such a way that they do not cure an addict of anything, that would be a bad business move. Another great example is how big pharma has no problem prescribing amphetamines at insanely high doses to every single person they can. If a patient ends up psychotic from it then they just hit them with antipsychotics. This is just capitalism and its effects.

it's messed up that people end up with worse problems than they had before they started maintenance drugs but that's how it is. It's all corrupt IMO, from the Drs that prescribe it, the people who import drugs to the rehab/prison industry. It's one big system out there to completely destroy and enslave people. Your best bet is to not get caught up in that system in the first place.

this sense of 'bad' and 'good' is really your problem. You have to be accountable for the choices you made and live with the consequences to move passed them. I'm still dealing with the fallout of all my drug use and continuing drug use but despite all this bullshit i am making headway into becoming a successful adult. You can blame capitalism, big pharma, whatever, but ultimately the responsibility is on the individual. Not directing this at you, just saying in general. Plenty of people would rather blame the system than themselves, which accomplishes nothing.

is it wrong how the state enslaves people by using long lasting opioids that are difficult to withdraw from? absolutely. If these people had any interest in helping people heroin maintenance would have been available a long time ago. I kind of contradict myself but ultimately people should know better than to trust the state with their lives, however in reality, most people don't, so in practice it works out very poorly. If people were educated, critical, responsible and accountable for their choices and actions, it wouldn't be such an issue.

 

[dopemaster]

I think subs in very small dose tapers a good for jumping off a habit. It doesnt ease the pain much but hey coming off smack, morphine, and oxy fucking hurts. I personally hate the damn legs cramps. If I have to get off quick I do a quick sub taper. Ive jumped off a nasty habit with half a strip once. Im actually jumping off for a bit so I can get my tracks tatted over. Ill go back to the clinic. I was thinking about hitting a sub doc cuz it never hurts to have narcotics lying around the house especially with your name on them. But yeah if I have as much subs as I want Id never take more than a strip for two days and then Id go down to 3/4 and so on. You get the idea. I think subs are a nasty drug and I personally think less is more. If it can cut the pain in my legs in half Im cool with it.

You just cant kick opiates without hurting. They call it kicking for a reason cuz your kicking the fucking air cuz your legs cramp so bad.

I personally like done but I hate the lining up every morning thing. I wouldnt mind having a scrip for the pills though.

 

[Lady Codone]

Swapping one opiate for another that's (arguably) harder to quit is slightly unethical IMHO. If you're going to do the substitution thing, it needs to be with the same drug you're addicted to. Case-in-point: Germany, Switzerland and other countries have heroin substitution programs that work beautifully. Addicts take their daily dose of pharm-grade heroin in the morning, go to work and live a productive life without the degenerate lifestyle that comes with scoring street dope. It's no different than going to a methadone or Suboxone clinic, except that it's heroin.

I've seen countless addicts claim that methadone is 10x harder to quit than heroin or pills. I have no experience with either drug, but having quit a long-acting opiate (poppy pods) in the past, I probably would agree.

Maintenance programs are great for reducing the immediate risks of relying on a Schedule I drug like heroin, but they're not exactly logical. Many of those risks are a result of prohibition rather than the drug itself.

 

[dopemaster]

Im having so much trouble kicking my habit at the moment. I think each kick is worse than the last. I ended up taking some subs reluctantly but my legs were awful and I was shitting all over the place. I try to do a quick taper on subs as I think its a trap created by evil pharm companies. That shit will probly kill anyone who maintains on it for life. Id bet my left nut. I feel like a dumb fuck for shooting up half a strip a few hours ago. I didnt get a rush but it definetly made me feel alot less ill. The other thing I hate about subs is the whole precipitated wd thing. I have had them 3 times. Its so hard to go 24 hours without fixing when you are a hardcore addict. I mean if I had a pussy ass oral pill habit Id be ok with 24 hours. But the amount of opiates I use is ridculous. I was on 200 mg of morphine and 60 mg of oxy which all went in my veins. I used 3cc rigs for the morphine to get it all in one shot. I got my morphine switched to opana and I hated it so much that I basically shot up all my oxy and traded my opana for oxy and morphine and dope which I shot. I dont see what the deal about opana is as people were willing to pay ridiculous amounts of money for it. Ive still got half a bottle and will trade for tattoos and maybe trade one for some pussy cuz I get horny when I kick. All the addicts around hear act like opana is their wet dream. I think morphine is far superior. So I went to the family doctor and asked for some benzos and clonodine and something for naseau which was all hooked up. But I digress I dont want to go on sub maintainance and Im having trouble doing a quick taper this time. I usally just kick with one or two strips. I just take enough so I dont shoot myself in the head, not enough to feel ok. I would love heroin maintainance. Thats a humane aproach. They dont have to hurt and they can work and function just fine.

 

[FnX]

How could anyone even think being in such a place would make someone be really back in the society as a member equal to all other member? I'm not asking here whether being a part of the society is good or bad. We're by default supposed to function in the society, so by default it's good whatever it means.

I would argue that in no way is anybody even trying to claim that the aim is making addicts equally valuable members of society as others. I think the point is just to get addicts participate more in behavior that sort of strengthens (for the lack of a better word) the society instead of being disruptive to it. I'm not making claims that addicts are somehow inherently disruptive to a society, but the simple fact is consciously breaking the laws of a society repeatedly is societally disruptive behavior on some level. If nothing else it usually leads to wasting tax money and thus everyones time and resources. At least most of the doctors I have met tend to view addicts as people of less value compared to others. Harsh I know, but it's gotten to the point where if you want proper help and respectable treatment for, say, depression, you better not even mention drugs to the doctor/psychiatrist. That's how it is in Finland.

After all it's the society that shapes you, that's part of growing up. The society must have done something wrong shaping me, otherwise I wouldn't respond doing things the society perceives as making a person less worth. I couldn't have stopped caring about my opinion just like that with no reason.

This sort of gives me the vibe that you blame society for your problems but elsewhere you said something along the lines "...I let myself be manipulated". Anyway, society might shape people but more importantly it is people who shape the society, otherwise we wouldn't have one in the first place.

In all of my heart I believe that opioid substitution does more good than it does bad and I wish it was an option for everyone who needed it. But it's not. There are so, so many people who would do anything to be part of such treatment program. There are so, so many people who die waiting to get into such treatment programs because the waiting lines can be months to years in some places. I would sincerely prefer that these people had a proper chance to try if substitution works for them, even if you find it problematic in your case. Seriously, people are injecting themselves with HIV, HEP-C and such on PURPOSE here just to cut to the front of the waiting lines... imagine if there was no line in the first place and imagine what would happen if there was no substitute treatment at all...

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Suboxone saved my life. I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's better than heroin maintenance clinics in Europe, nor is it better than just cold turkeying the habit.

Everyone has their own way out of this.

 

[dopemaster]

Suboxone saved my life. I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's better than heroin maintenance clinics in Europe, nor is it better than just cold turkeying the habit.

Everyone has their own way out of this.

Ive got a consultation for suboxone maintainance tomarrow. Im wondering if I should try to taper off rather quick or just stay on the stuff for a bit. Really I have alot of questions Id rather not ask the doctors. I used to cold turkey but I dont think I got a cold turkey kick in me right now. Ive lost too much weight and Im too weak to handle it. I usually do a 2-3 week taper and Ive done some that were like 4-5 days that were kinda rough. Im wondering if maybe I should stabilize or just keep at the most wds I can stand.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Ive got a consultation for suboxone maintainance tomarrow. Im wondering if I should try to taper off rather quick or just stay on the stuff for a bit. Really I have alot of questions Id rather not ask the doctors. I used to cold turkey but I dont think I got a cold turkey kick in me right now. Ive lost too much weight and Im too weak to handle it. I usually do a 2-3 week taper and Ive done some that were like 4-5 days that were kinda rough. Im wondering if maybe I should stabilize or just keep at the most wds I can stand.

Get on Suboxone. Not everyone is able to cold turkey (I wasn't).

 

[dopemaster]

Get on Suboxone. Not everyone is able to cold turkey (I wasn't).

What I meant was did you stay on it long as maintainance and how long? Ive done two to three week sub tapers with sucess but not lasting sobriety but I was clean until I got my rx filled. Im just wondering if I want to be on this stuff for long or use it to taper off like I did in the past. Its not that horrible for me at least to cut the strips into small pieces and take less and less. So Ive always used subs to the minimum and didnt even take em all on a kick. Ive kicked alot of times to sell my rx's for a bit but the ineviatable piss test every two months always made me relapse so I have recently realized being a chronic pain patient is not a good career move if you catch my drift. Ive burned my bridges so its not like Ima get back on opiates any time soon. I just wonder what would be better for my health. I know stress kills you and the body can only take so much. But then I weigh that against the toll suboxone could take on my body and mind. I know that sounds kinda hypocrytical/stupid coming from someone coming off a serious drug habit but I want to get in good health and start working out. I used to be such a jock and I miss my life. When I destroyed my arm I felt like my life was over as I could barely write but now Im thinking I gotta just play the hand I was dealt. I never lost control with rx pills or smack until I got hurt. I sure have lost control with everything else in the past but opiates used to be so kind to me. Now wds can make me their bitch. I keep saying Ill be off the subs in a week or two like I did before but I dunno if I can do it or if its the right choice. I know you cant make my decisions for me and probly will just skim this, but thats cool. I like to type. Thanks for any advice.

 

[adder]

I think you should try Suboxone, you don't have to stay on it for a longer period of time, but once you're on the program, you most likely will. It's not good or bad, and in my experience getting off it is much much easier than from methadone. Sometimes there's no other option. I got on Suboxone when I couldn't cope with PAWS after methadone taper-off. I used codeine to feel "straight". Honestly, I'd rather use codeine or DHC as a substitute than either of available substitutes. Suboxone doesn't work for my mental cravings, it did the job at higher doses, because I knew nothing would work anyway. I tapered down, actually I'm off it, but I'm forced to start it again. Stay on the lowest dose possible, the only difference between 4mg and higher doses seems to be only duration of effects. I ended up theoretically even more physically addicted to opioids thanks to high-dose buprenorphine. What a paradox! It doesn't reall matter if someone took hydrocodone pills or shot up heroin, both are extremely psychologically addictive. I can still remember I was more chilled by 150mg codeine p.o. than injected strong opioids when I developed tolerance. Yet I still think I would.be more productive even on something stronger than codeine orally - oxycodone would.be fine - than I am now on Suboxone. Life being passable costs me more than chilled out life seeing my own value. I think I could be on 1mg or less and it would feel the same from the beginning, and my tolerance wouldn't rise so high. 8mg was such an overkill, but starting with 2mg is actually high too. I feel lifeless now - sentenced for Suboxone maintenance, because there is no way I could afford daily doses of morphine or heroin to feel fine. And at the same time I know this situation only makes me more depressed.

It was my fault obviously that methadone ruined my life much more than"regular" opioids. I didn't choose to take it because I liked it, I thougt it would make me generally more accepted as an addict. What for and to whom?! I keep negating myself all the time. It's impossible to be more accepted if people don't care about you... I guess my frustration hit the limit and that's why I began looking for a reason why I did what I did. I've blamed myself for everything all my life, have been afraid of hurting people and people hurting me, I was guilty all the time in my own eyes. I got tired of it, I just can't be that bad, I know I'm not, I truly gave a lot of myself to other people. Now I receive nothing and give nothing, fair enough.

My doctor didn't want to place me on methadone. I didn't know why, I thought he was simply making it hard for me. Thus I placed myself on it, and I began being 24/7 on an opioid for longer than a few months for the first time. This wasn't stabilization, it was going deeper as I had no breaks any more. I hardly felt methadone until I got off it. I don't know how I managed to quit it, it was a divine intervention of some sort. If I stayed on it longer, I would become a methadone addict for life and I'd stop being a morphine addict definitely. Suboxone kind of saved me too, but I can't see it as positive, because I had no choice but accept it. Otherwise I'd stop studying again. Well, eventually I did, Suboxone maintenance had one big negative effect - my doctorpushing me to quit clonazepam. When I ran out of estazolam I'd used instead od clonazepam, I couldn't go out at all, I had to go on a leave.

I wouldn't have done so much harm to myself if I hadn't wanted to be accepted so desperately. It cost me so much that I can say it's not worth it. Acceptance is way too little to value oneself as a human being. It's true getting drugs is more of a problem than the abuse itself. No clean member of the society would be harmed by addicts with unlimited access to drugs. I'm not saying it would make addicts truly happy, but I'm beginning to believe happiness is a rarity nowadays exclusively for some limited group of people. I have no idea what has just happened to me, for medicine it's probably chronic depression caused by drug abuse and social anxiety. Yeah, right, and gross antidepressants + "unaddictive anxiolytics" will solve the problem. And therapy of course. What'a the probability of all possible treatment options failing? Actually therapists mostly made me even more nervous as I saw them trying their tricks on me. Maybe that's what made me unresponsive, but I couldn't help it. Every therapy seemed to me a therapist trying too hard to manipulate me (can be positive too, when you make someone believe something untrue but letting that person live a happier life, it's not immoral to manipulate, what we perceive is more important to us than what really is) or not trying at all.

 

[dopemaster]

Thanks so much for the response. My main concern about the clinic Im going to is that I have to dose in front of them and Im thinking they will probly give me alot more than I want. Also Id like to have a tiny bit at bed time. Usually with subs I start at a strip and work my way down to a half in about 5 or 6 days. Hopefully I can get a scrip or dry my mouth to cheek the pill. Im thinking they are in the business of getting me hooked on the cure so I wanna be careful Im not overmedicated to pad their pockets. Thats what I truly believe about these private clinics.

As far as opiates once your introduce long acting drugs like methadone, morphine, and fentynal and your pretty much saturated all day every day forever its not cool anymore. I usually only slept about 2-4 hours at a time and woke up to inject. As far as chronic pain maintainance I dont think it works after a while when ER meds are introduced. Opiates work better when they are not in you 24 7. I think that its best if possible to give patients strong instant meds like oxy and let them choose when they get pain relief. I really think hyrdocodone, oxycodone, and codeine should be OTC.

But I digress my MAIN CONCERN is these people want me to dose in front of them for a week in the form of the pills. I have no clue how fast these pills disolve but I have no intentions of taking a 24 mg tablet when Im only on a 8 mg strip and its holding me for the most part. I want it as a tool off dope not as more dope. So Ima see how it goes and if they check your mouth. Ill either make a dry spot in my mouth with cotton to keep it from disolving or straight bite it in half and act like Im biting my nails and pocket it or throw it away if I have to.

I know they do a rx for the strips and the dose for the pills is daily for a week and then you can dose at home but I have no intention of tripling my tolerance to bupe as its quite low. Ive been pretty sure it was gonna come down to methadone or bupe one day with the habit I had. So I never abused bupe. Hell its not like you can take it with opiates anyways as it would send you into precipitated wds which has happened to me 3 times. I just gritted my teeth as the naxolone had raped my mind off opiates and I was detoxed and uncomfortable but detoxed. I dont have the health to pull those type of stunts nor the self loathing. I lost ten lbs in a day on my first pwds. I didnt know shit about subs and I took a dose instead of my morning shot. It was a god damn exorcism. It was like I was a tube of toothpaste with caps on both ends being squeezed. I puked and shat in one gloriously horrific spasm over and over. So I do know the power of bupe. Im on the side of taking less than too much.

Im thinking Im a bit nervous and things will work out if I keep my mind sharp. I just gotta take control of the situation and not let them make me addicted to subs. It probably wont happen but if it comes down to it I will spit out the pill pay them and walk out the door and get sick as fuck. Im sure I could ask for a lower dosage and honestly I dont see how you could turn that down. Im hoping I only have to dose in front of them a couple times and get a scrip for strips so I can slice em into tiny lil pieces cuz thats the best way for me at least. Im not saying thats how anyone else should do it. Im not in the position to give advice. I can simply say what I have witnessed and what I would do.

 

[RobotRipping]

shit man i think you would actually benefit from therapy far more than you think. You have to go in open minded and take it seriously and do some actual work. When they tell you to do something, it's not because they are trying to manipulate you for their own desires, they are trying to get you to overcome your issues. Of course you're going to be nervous about it, if you really loved therapy and enjoyed it like a drug, you probably don't have any issues to deal with.

What tricks did they pull? some cheesy things about learning to let go? or embrace your fears? that shit actually works. The deeper you probe the more you're going to encounter, the more pain you'll find, the more you'll have to deal with but there's no question in my mind that this is what you need to do. Why do you need to be accepted so badly? that is probably the biggest question you should answer right now.

i'm often accepted as a drug user, whether i tell people that or not, it has no bearing on being accepted in any social sense or in a work place. No one even cares. The only scrutiny i face is from Drs not accepting my requests for benzos and opiates because of my medical history of drug abuse and that's it. Unless you have a criminal record or something, i don't see what the problem is, other than not feeling accepted, which is part of a whole bunch of other issues to do with the self.

The probably of all treatment options failing is 100% if you don't put any work into them and doom them to be failures from the start. You get out what you put in, plain and simple, everything is like this in life. If you aren't willing to put in the work, then you're going to have to accept that you aren't going to live the life you want to live.

happiness isn't the ultimate goal anyway, i'd much rather feel the stress/pressure to succeed, the pain of hard work, and that feeling of success when the time and effort i put in really pays off. That's not even a sense of happiness but accomplishment and is far more worthy of my time in life than aiming for happiness.

 

[dopemaster]

I would argue that therapy is bollocks for the most part. Having read a couple psychology books I was able to call out shrinks and therapists on all their techniques. The only guy that got over on me ended up making me become his drug source by blackmailing me with threats of fucking up my record. Id known this guy for like 9 years and he pulled this shit. I woulda gotten him whatever he wanted anyways. He starts talking about hes gonna put in some shit so Id lose my gun rights due to addiction. He used to say its just friend talk and Im not writing this down ever. More than half the time he talked to me about his problems with his son. He called me at home several times and I called him and thats a no no, but this guy kept playing up the friend thing. Then one day its like I owe him something. I got him what he wanted and he never paid me. Im on fucking welfare and food stamps. I had no choice but to fork it over as he started with this bullshit that was going in my file if I didnt and showed me two seperate pages and said to pick which one went in. I paid the bribe to my "friend." I told him to change all my records or we would have a serious problem. He said we were done and he puked when I left the office. He got fired shortly after and the asshole still owes me 100 bones.

I didnt believe it at first but he was sexually harassing female patients. My ex gf from back in the day had a psych file like a book so her word was garbage. Im not gonna give up my annonimity by saying what happened but she assaulted him due to his actions and he didnt press charges and she got to talk to another shrink that day. At first I didnt belive her, but the more I got to know this guy and once I noticed he was using alot he turned out to be a real shithead. At the time I was putting in work and hooked him up with primo shit. I wonder why he never called me. Its like he paid for his shit usually and just goes and gets fired and I never hear from him when hes got a fucking tab. Maybe he got arrested or what he deserved.

Ive had a shrink write dangerous in my file. One day I walk in wearing some "urban" attire looking pretty sharp with edged up hair cut and new jordans and hes like get the fuck out my office. I asked him why and my mother was there too. He told her to shut the fuck up and called security. This guy was genuinley terrified after I told him I smoked canibus occasionally when he drug tested me. He acted like it was angel dust. My file said "dangerous and most likely armed due to his demeanor and baggy clothes as he is most likely concealing a handgun." I shit a brick when my next doctor showed me the file.

Ive had other bad shrinks too and put me on every fucking antipsychotic in the book along with some ssris mood stabilizers and some off label shit for fun. It was horrid. I was a zombie in the worst kind of way. I literally dont remember a few years of my life. I stopped taking the pills and called my mom and asked her "why is there a fat chick living in my house and she thinks shes my gf." Shes like "honey, you two have been dating for 3 years." I shit you not. All these people knew I was bat shit crazy and drinking over a fifth a day and no one even told me that I straight checked out for like 4 years.

But back to the shrink who told me to check my file. Hes like well lets just throw this trash where it belongs and tosses my file in the garbage bin. He was ok but he eventually dropped me when I started to talk about my childhood. I got a bit peeved but he was the guy who put me in a protected class/seizure risk for benzos so I cant be taken off them against my will. This is one reason I am not able to get methadone rx'd easily. I dont really seek done as I know all to well advice from my older peers on that subject.

Morphine, oxycodone and heroin sure threw me for a loop. What pushed me over the edge on opiates was getting an injury and going on chronic pain maintainance. I was getting kiddy shit like vicodin and tramadol for my back and popping like 100 mgs of oxy a day but nothing I couldnt afford with the money I was making at the time. Well I got a bit complacent and sure couldnt manage the things I did to support my lifestyle. It happened over a period of years. I was putting a couple thousand a month in the bank and went to being on welfare and losing my life savings and having my mom bail me out of a bit of financial trouble. I had given her money in the past that was more, but I still felt guilty as fuck.

I used to make alot of money. I made a point of buying my sisters, mother, and grandma gold and diamonds ever other year for christmas. I bought everyone in my family expensive gifts trying to buy their love. They always acted like it wasnt shit even though they knew what I did for a living and even some asked if I knicked it. I may have bought some of the stuff from people that knicked it but I mean how was I to know or care. I mean shit I bought my dad guns and ray bans and he gives me a fucking 20 dollar bill. Thats a bit of a tangent. I do suppose my family always treating me like I should have been someone else and done this and that and married so and so, etc. I just wanted them to accept them for me. Im heavily tattooed and I was fucking about skateboarding and making art among other things and I was making more than decent wages with my various jack of all trades endevours. Who the fuck were they to judge me. I could give a fuck about any person on the street or even a friends opinion but something about my families approval used to fuck with me. Well now both sides of my family are split into two seperate groups making a total of four. I have a sister who hasnt spoken to me since she learned I was smoking pot at 14 despite the fact that she was an alcoholic. She was probly looking for an excuse, I was too young to understand at the time. My cousin who is more like a sister cut this bitch off cold for that shit and well shit gets heated at family reunions which I never get invited to and if I do Im asked not to attend. Id like to go and see my sisters as Im a 30 year old man and Im a fucking college graduate, but my father wont have it and he would probly shoot me if I tried to go. Hes getting a bit senile for a gun nut, so I have to take him with a grain of salt. Enough of my ramblings.

But yeah therapists suck. Oh did I mention group therapy. I love group, but group doesnt love me. Really I used it as a forum to make fun of people and just think about what I was gonna say when it was my turn to talk. I used to go to AA fucked up just to be a dick and yeah Id pick up chips too. I sure do love to fuck with people and it was quite a hobby for some time, but thats a whole nother story. It probly had to do something with my abusive father and these kids who used to beat the fucking shit out of me like 6 against me when I was in highschool. I got pretty good at running and sneaking around. I also learned my way around a knife and blunt objects to end that bullshit. These pussies always shit a brick when I got em alone and fucked up each and everyone of em in a fair fight. Thats the only way to handle bullies if no one else will help you. You have to pick em off one by one. The weapons just keep them from jumping you. But I would just creep on a mofo and sucker punch the fool and beat him down. I mean they did it to me except I was being sat on by a fat kid will they took turns hitting me and whatnot. All the broken fingers and ribs I endured in those days sure dont help my pain levels. My parents wouldnt even take me to a fucking doctor when this shit happened let alone diginify the fact that this shit was happening. My mum was in denial for years until she left my father which was the best thing that ever happened for me and her. I dont blame her for shit. My father is extremelly smart and manipulative. Hes probly a genius level IQ. Well theres no probly in that actually thinking about his education and the jobs he had. He was an antisocial fucker though and got in arguements with neighbors all the time.

Gee whiz sorry to ramble. I suppose thats a bit of why I got dependent on opiates as I was in so much physical and mental pain which Im pretty much over but Ive been hooked since high school and Im a serious morphine addict trying to stay on suboxone and eventually jump off and just live my life. I could really give a fuck about my family now as I wont change them and I certainly dont need them. They only brought me down with their own problems and took it out on me in various forms of abuse with me being the youngest. I mean some of my family is great, but some dont deserve to see my ass let alone shake my hand.

That really should have been a blog. I sure didnt mean to derail your forum. I suppose I was getting into what put me where I am today and what not. I really appreciated your advice ADDER. That was super helpful and Im still tense and unable to sleep but Ive got a bit better perspective to what Im signing up for and thank you CAPTAINHEROIN for responding to the subs question real quick. I like bluelight as its a good way to get things off my chest that no one would care to hear. I dont really even care if people read what I write, but I process my thoughts and I do like it when people read it. Its really like a support group for addicts in all stages to help one another with a bit of experiences to relate and the anonymity makes it much easier.

 

[RobotRipping]

I would argue that therapy is bollocks for the most part. Having read a couple psychology books I was able to call out shrinks and therapists on all their techniques. The only guy that got over on me ended up making me become his drug source by blackmailing me with threats of fucking up my record. Id known this guy for like 9 years and he pulled this shit. I woulda gotten him whatever he wanted anyways. He starts talking about hes gonna put in some shit so Id lose my gun rights due to addiction. He used to say its just friend talk and Im not writing this down ever. More than half the time he talked to me about his problems with his son. He called me at home several times and I called him and thats a no no, but this guy kept playing up the friend thing. Then one day its like I owe him something. I got him what he wanted and he never paid me. Im on fucking welfare and food stamps. I had no choice but to fork it over as he started with this bullshit that was going in my file if I didnt and showed me two seperate pages and said to pick which one went in. I paid the bribe to my "friend." I told him to change all my records or we would have a serious problem. He said we were done and he puked when I left the office. He got fired shortly after and the asshole still owes me 100 bones.

psychiatrists don't use any techniques really lol they just give u meds and send u packing. Sure they'll give u some things to think about but so what?

i could call out my counselor on all the techniques she was using, but it's not like i was trying to crack her secret code... she was just trying to help. I knew all the techniques, just didn't employ them without her. I can manipulate the shit out of Drs if i want to but that doesn't make what they do any less helpful or relevant.

what you describe is ridiculous, i've never encountered such fucked up scenarios in my life! Not that i don't believe you but holy shit. maybe you're seeing the wrong people or something. I'd much rather speak to a social worker than a psychologist for that kind of reason but there's always a chance you're going to end up being treated by someone who has more problems than you do, i don't think that invalidates the whole industry though. I had a life changing experience because of therapy and the work i put in. Still a drug addict but whatever at least my life is going somewhere now.

 

[paranoid android]

Saying that opioid substitution is wrong is akin to something a fucking puritan would say. I have seen methadone and bupe help alot of people and i have seen it harm alot of people worse then the opiates they tried to get off. So you just fall into the latter category. There are just far to few options for those trying to get off opiates. Studies have shown that treatment with diamorphine and hydromorphone work better then treatment with methadone alone. So more options like those and other options like maintenance with codeine would yield far better results. But then again the medical community still hasn't gotten out of the 1 size fits all approach.

It seems like you are somewhat unhappy with society and how it treats you. Well welcome to 99% of the population :D . Alienation from society is a big part in why so many people feel unhappy. We basically spend our whole lives right from the cradle to the grave trying to fit into the nice cardboard cut out that society deems is the correct way to be. Anyone who does not fit into that is outcast and thought of as weird or anti-social. I long ago gave up trying to gain any acceptance from people who are not my close friends or family members that i actually give a fuck about. Everyone else can go fuck themselves and mind their own as far as i am concerned.

The fact is that at the end of the day the only person you have to seek acceptance from is yourself. The only person you have to answer to really is you not what some stupid cunt thinks of you. It is not some random twat keeping you awake at night now is it? It's your own thoughts and what you think of yourself. Sadly most people use social norms as a mirror on how to judge themselves which only leads to unhappiness. We know that social norms are based upon hypocritical and shallow ideals yet we still live attached to them like leads weights on your feet pulling you down further and further until all sense of self and individuality has been sucked out of you.

I know not everybody can just say fuck it and only care about what those close to you think of you but it's the only way i have managed to stay sane. I could give 2 shits about what some random cunt thinks of me really or if they accept me.

 

[dopemaster]

Well I went to the clinic. It went bad. They wouldnt let me speak to a doctor and I didnt know how to answer questions about benzos without them having my dose cut and they wanted to map my track marks and send it to my pain clinic. My pain clinic still thinks Im a model patient. So fuck these wankers. I asked to see the forms and walked out. Security chased me. I got all these forms your not supposed to read that say for doctor only. These evil fucks would have demolished my disability and any chance to even go back on pain medicine. I was able to get all the forms but one. They have my name and the name of my clinic but they dont have anything I have signed so I mean HIPPA policy protects me and I would love to sue them if they call my doctor. I know a really great lawyer.

Luckilly my friendly neighborhood spider man was able to help me and hell it was probly cheaper than the clinic and I can keep that matter private. So fuck em they had the most demeaning questions about sex and what not. But what I didnt like was that they wanted me to disclose all my medical records to them before even a consultation. When I realized I wouldnt speak to a doctor and even though I properly lied on the forms it rubbed me the wrong way. I did drop a urine sample and their drug test is 50 bucks, but they didnt ask me to pay. I wonder what they test for. I was actually already on suboxone when I went in and have been on for a few days. Im holding at a strip now and will taper. Ive got a rather cushy taper compared to my past ones lined up if I need it. Im not maintaining on the stuff though. It is what it is and well I just didnt even know if they were gonna help me cuz I was on benzos and I cannot stop taking them without most likely having a seizure. Im glad I was able to get it cheaper from somewhere other than a clinic. I just want to taper off within a month and thats the only option I have now, but its cool. I will probly go back on oxycodone but not morphine in the long run. I need to get my track marks tattooed over as I have the worst out of anyone I know or have met.