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Lucifer's Fall...

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But what is more important? The truth or obeying all the rules on a Message board? I just thought there was something to the idea and the more common version might be a fairytale - and I hate people being given spiritual fairytales.

I get your thesis, but the large swaths of text were not necessary. Also, double-posting is not allowed, let alone quadruple posting.

If you want your personal truth heard you must adhere to the forum guidelines. I'll allow this thread to continue on the condition that posts are coherent and facilitate a productive discussion.

To everyone else: if you have a problem with a post please use the report function and let a mod handle it. Thank you.
 
But what is more important? The truth or obeying all the rules on a Message board? I just thought there was something to the idea and the more common version might be a fairytale - and I hate people being given spiritual fairytales.

your "truth" is being hidden by your method of delivering it which is difficult for others to read. you can't take your choice of terminology for granted.

is your reluctance to clarify or put any effort into making your ideas more considerate of those who may not have had the same experiences as you an intentional attempt at avoiding critical analysis and discussion? know what? this prevents people from agreeing with you too. :|
 
red = explain
big red = explain (because I think it's non-sense)

blue = you assume that people know
big blue = you assume that only superior minds can understand these kind of things, and you in particular have such a special gift (which I think is non-sense)
purple = commentary
=========

Yes, but this is the Spirituality board, so most should have an idea what I'm talking about and I was trying to keep the word count down.

But from what I wrote it should be quite obvious I was talking about the two opposite poles of Creation (or the idea of it) - the negative/positive or good/evil - and this is quite a well-known concept. But not really the focus of this post.

Anyway, this is quite a new idea to me, but it wasn't so hard to find other sources saying the same thing. Just doing a search on "Luficer self-sacrifying angel" brought up some interesting pages, like even a book written about the subject, and a forum with channeled messages from Lucifer from different sources. So I think I'll post some of these as they explain it all signifantly better than I ever could.

I don't know, you'll have to make your own minds up, but it sounds quite convincing to me. For one thing, the wording itself is very high-level (about as high as can be seen in this world), and there's obviously a very advanced consciousness behind it and not something just anyone could have made up. I'm also quite good at feeling the nature of someone by reading their words, and this one doesn't feel quite normal human to me.

But as I rememember there was quite a few paragraphs, so I'll try to split them up so they don't get so long.

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"I am Lucifer. You may regard me as one who is willing to take responsibility for pushing an issue to ultimate potential exposure."

"I am simply the dark side of the sixth dimension; but the light cannot manifest without me. Without great force and intention, how will anything occur in your dimension? Think of the energy required for manifestation! So, until you push yourselves, I will keep pushing you, since I can see you are losing interest in your world."

"I am merely a force. If you have preconceived notions about me or any kind of negative feelings about me, then you don't respect raw power that can be used simply for good or for evil. I simply hold power implants in bodies, and it's your choice to activate them or not. If it weren't for me, 3D [I suppose you mean the spatial/bodiliy embodiment of existence] would be emotionless. Since evolution [define: evolution (from bad/evil to good?)] is required in the cosmos, time and place are necessities for any experience to occur. If it were not for the basic force, there would be no 3D. I am the mirror of you that you will not look into."

"I am an angel from a higher dimension who was once in 3D. When I first came down, I was taken over by the Nibiruans.Therefore, I know a lot about how the Annunaki use the Net. I am the perfect one to help you dissect the source of your inner violence creating your outer world. I share your dilemma, yet I still possess wider sight than you have. I am an etheric consciousness who came down to play in Earth...."

"Here's my dilemma: To create, one must master the dimensional construct. When I got caught in 3D, I lost my ability to see the dimension that I came from. I am sure most of you know exactly what I mean. In fact, I am so lost here that I still can't tell you where I came from, I'm just stuck....That's what Lucifer means. I am light caught in matter."

"There are those who call Me the Fallen Angel or the Devil. I am really neither of them, I am an important part of Creation and thus from your Evolution. I am the anti-pole which makes you evolve. You cannot meet God without Me." [Would it not be easier to formulate the same idea more conceptually instead of using the images of Angels/Devil... you know... Angels & Devils are no longer taken serious in the 21th century. From the moment I read these words I stop taking you seriously. This doesn't mean the idea you are trying to express is non-sense per se... Maybe you can reformulate it in a language that 21th century people can understand]

"My place and task in the Great Whole has always been expressed wrongly. It was and still is a difficult but valuable assignment in the service of Creation! I have studied you for long and have understood much about humankind. I now ask to be understood as well, which is important for Our further evolution."

"There are those who call Me the Fallen Angel or the Devil. I am really neither of them, I am an important part of Creation and thus from your Evolution. I am the anti-pole which makes you evolve. You cannot meet God without Me."

"My place and task in the Great Whole has always been expressed wrongly. It was and still is a difficult but valuable assignment in the service of Creation! I have studied you for long and have understood much about humankind. I now ask to be understood as well, which is important for Our further evolution. You can receive my Power and you can receive My Light as well. You see It, you know It and you recognize It. I ask of all those who do not want to know Me to open up for Me and try to understand Me."

"I need you. I need your Universal Love. The all-encompassing Love, which can also encompass Me again. I reach out my hand towards you , and ask a hand in return. in order for our hands to feel each other, for our wisdom to understand each others, so that the Universal Love can surround Us."

PART II may come if you attempt to join a meaningful discussion where people can understand you.... I don't want to waste more of my time if you just keep on rambling new thoughts in a monologue.
 
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I only left out explanations because it was already getting too long.

It's a difficult subject in itself, and wasn't necessarily meant for everyone. That's why I wrote at the start that anyone who was of a very different opinion didn't need to contribute. Not just to be difficult or superior, but because I think it's boring when a thread turns into a long argument between members instead of focusing on the topic. Especilally this board that is for expressing different theories and people are bound to have different beliefs.

Anyway, I shouldn't have quoted in so many posts, but I thought it gave a better explanation than I probably could. And I don't think anyone who didn't like what I've already posted are going to change their mind if I explain it more in detail. I was thinking more the contrary. Also, I don't exactly understand the topic completely for myself, that's why I would like to hear other's opinion.
 
It's a difficult subject in itself, and wasn't necessarily meant for everyone.
Once again...
big blue = you assume that only superior minds can understand these kind of things, and you in particular have such a special gift (which I think is non-sense)

Don't you see such an approach is very weak... e.g. To parody your method of discussion: I proclaim that I am an all-powerful infinite mind that has an infinite understanding of Reality, but unfortunately I cannot explain this knowledge to others because it's too sophisticated.... Nonetheless, my position and knowledge must be valid; after all, I said that I was an all-powerful mind, so it must be true. I don't need do any effort to explain or defend my position to others to make my position valid. It suffices to self-proclaim the truth of my own position.

...

That's why I wrote at the start that anyone who was of a very different opinion didn't need to contribute.

You use repeatedly this argument and take it to be a valid defense. This, once again, makes your position NOT true... A position can only be strengtened (or said to be true) when it can stand the critique and questions of others. You on the other hand, a priori, exclude other views and assume your position is thus immune to critique. To give an example... cf. your first post above

Ninae said:
Please, I'm not a scientist who's only interested in the physical world.

....
.....

Not just to be difficult or superior, but because I think it's boring when a thread turns into a long argument between members instead of focusing on the topic.
a) Is the whole point of a discussion not that there is an argument and exchange of ideas between the participants?
b) What's the topic? Can you briefly summarize in one sentence what you want to say (without using esoteric language such as: angels, devil, sixth dimensions,...) which is for me (and many others) meaningless.

Especilally this board that is for expressing different theories and people are bound to have different beliefs.
And some of these beliefs can be wrong/right, strong/weak... By discussing and defending your position, you can strengthen your own beliefs... OR relativize them as being ungrounded (and thus discard them).

And I don't think anyone who didn't like what I've already posted are going to change their mind if I explain it more in detail.
a) Are you sure you are not avoiding the questions now. Maybe, on closer inspection, you have to admit that some of your terms are very ambigious.
b) Is it maybe not you that is NOT willing to change their mind? You remain encapsulated in your own stream of thought and ignore any external critique/question with regards to the validity of your position.

I was thinking more the contrary. Also, I don't exactly understand the topic completely for myself, that's why I would like to hear other's opinion.
Before people can give their opinion they must first understand what you are saying.
 
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You're judging and assuming a little bit much. My ego isn't really that strong and just because what I said COULD come from that point of view, doesn't necessarily mean it did. As I recall, I was mainly interested in bringing the subject to attention, not in bringing attention to myself. I just get very passionate about ideas, that's why I tend to go on and on and on, so I was trying to avoid it.

Anyway, it must be really boring for people to read arguing back and forth about details like that (unless they have strong symphaties/antipathies for someone).
 
there is no assumption in psyduck's post. it is all literally in your posts.
 
What I would like is for more people to start praying for him [the devil/lucifer? demons?]

You're treading dangerous waters, I would be careful who you are praying to...

Or are you praying to God to have compassion on the devil/demons in hell?

Either way, I would suggest focusing your prayers on those less fortunate living people, or those souls who have passed away, that God may show them great mercy and forgiveness, for He is all gracious and all merciful.

There is no longer light in the devil, and he cannot be redeemed from hell, yet God still has great love and compassion for all his creation, though not the acts that they have freely chosen, the devil has great power and wisdom to make things appear good that are really not. Be careful what you are for praying for/to.

Overall, this thread is very confusing - you should add more condensed questions that could spark discussion - instead of broad statements that are difficult to interpret. 8(

"Does God Love Lucifer?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGUaM0gZLGk

Peace & Love <3
 
Either way, I would suggest focusing your prayers on those less fortunate living people, or those souls who have passed away, that God may show them great mercy and forgiveness, for He is all gracious and all merciful.

Or, better yet, donate your time and money to relief programs for the less fortunate. God may be gracious and merciful but prayers won't help feed the hungry or heal the sick - they just make it easier to feel better about doing nothing.
 
To funnel myself into this, using these related beliefs, ideas, Etc... I need to say that it still is not established that The Satan is any more than the name of an "office"... And the one who holds it was an Angel to begin with. He did not have anything that we might call "free-will". Therefore, he never did anything he was not supposed to do.

Free will... I have doubts that we have it either, as we think we might. I think it is confusing. And NOBODY KNOWS. But I present this: Though it doesn't work when we say Angels don't have free will, what if humans simply receive God's will freely? Just a thought.

I don't think anyone can truly know.

And if The Satan is thine enemy, who does Jesus tell us to love? It makes perfect sense to pray that demons be exercised/"helped". But aren't problems demons too? And where would we be without the demons that weigh us down? Our challenges?
-------------------------

It is not clear. Is Lucifer The Satan? How would a being with the name Light/Light-bearer not have light in/with him? Why is he (or, if not the same, "The Satan"), AND Jesus, both, called the "morning star"?

Is it really so confusing? Is God really trying that hard to confuse us?

Everyone thinks they have a handle on things... as if it is so clear cut and dry. You don't. And it is not. But maybe it is... Just not how you/we think, or have been led to believe.

Still, confusion. Perhaps.

To believe that light cannot exist somewhere, even in "the devil", to me, is admitting that God is not all powerful.

A lot has been lost in translation. Even among the same, or similar religions. Words, like sin... Sin has roots with "forget", which might be like neglect, and perhaps others might be related.
 
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Or, better yet, donate your time and money to relief programs for the less fortunate. God may be gracious and merciful but prayers won't help feed the hungry or heal the sick - they just make it easier to feel better about doing nothing.

Yes it is better, I agree. Though one who is poor, can't travel, and holds no political power, can't do very much. I would love to have all the money and time in the world to solve all the earth's problems, with all the violence that is going on around the world, such as places in the middle east - Syria - etc, the only thing one can do is pray for peace, forgiveness, and mercy.
 
On the subject of Angels, and The Satan...

This may not be something to take so seriously, but it might be food for thought.

I don't like the "it's all in the past" attitude, to ideas about things. I believe we can still think about it. I believe that what happens might still hold some value, and meaning, building off of things. I at least think, to neglect what is out there, and perhaps relevant, is like sin.

In my own life, I didn't take "angels" very seriously, or didn't really think about them, as literal. I never knew. I met someone, though, who said she had communication with them. Admittedly, I did not quite "believe" her, but I didn't discount her, because I wanted to get into her pants... for one. For one. I let the ideas play in my mind. And, I guess I did have a book about Angels, before, called "Angels: An Endangered Species"... But I guess I shouldn't mention that it was 23 dollars, either. Haha. Or stream my consciousness too much into this. I will try to get to the point.

I wasn't much "into" believing anything. I had formulated my own ideas as to what things "are". But then, I found, that her beliefs were not in conflict. This was a height in my recognition of "Angels"- my meeting her. Within one year, on 1/22/2010, a day shy of one year after this girl who brought "Angels" to my consciousness again, and the day she moved into the place where we spent time together, this movie came out. It involves Michael, The Archangel, coming to defend a girl, who was pregnant, from a hoard of possessed people, and not "demons", but "Angels". This child of hers, was supposed to be like the new Christ, or something. And the possessed people, were not possessed by demons, according to Michael, but by Angels.

The Angels- This "Legion", were led by Gabriel, who had orders from God to kill this child, before it could be born. Michael... Michael either disobeyed, or was directed to fight, in her protection. So these two highest Angels, Fire and Water (and other things), were fighting against one another.

It was all rather confusing. Or could be.

But in the beginning, of the religions that brought about Angels (well to argue, their roots did come before, but were funneled into), Abraham was instructed by God, to sacrifice his son. Then an Angel, comes and tells him not to? I mean... WTF? And we are supposed to follow this bullshit? Fucking seriously?

I mean, this was the beginning. I mean really!? Really!

So please, don't tell me you know what the fuck is going on. It's all one. And God is a schizophrenic. At least what we see of him.

Then, there was another thing in the stream of consciousness of events that came about, right around this time of that movie's (Legion's) release. There was another story presented, easily, for me to see, in the form of another movie, released on red-box, to perhaps ride the wave of another Angel movie. It was a Australian film called "Gabriel". In this one, "Gabriel" is the good guy, and Michael has gone to some Earth of sorts, or it is purgatory. And heaven and hell fight for the souls of it. But Michael, in this, turns out to be Samael, who although might not be the Satan, I guess he is frequently mistaken for him, or has been said that he is... And in this, he was the top bad guy. This film, again, pits Michael and Gabriel against one another.

Now, why does this happen? Why would these stories exist? And why did God tell Abraham to kill his son, but also send this messenger, to say not to? Why? I mean, it's pretty, excuse my cool ass language, fucked, if you ask me. And I don't trust any of it. I might use it. I might use it- the experience of recognizing "Angels" and a movie about it coming out a year after, just about exactly, and a year after the one who brought me there, moved in to the place where we talked... I might use that... But I'm not listening. I'm not listening. I'm not listening. I'm not listening... At least, not to what you say. I mean I am, but I am weighing it all against myself. And I am trying to trust my own instinct. My own inner voice. Not some fucking written word of another, as if it were written in some unbreakable stones. I mean... And once again, there's so much confusion, I do take the words- all of them, and everything, into account, and try to find how they are relevant, but I have a hard time trusting. And I'll try to use my mind, and if God ever tells me to sacrifice someone like that, I will say, "no", or maybe even "fuck you".

I don't have a conclusion to this extraction, yet.

I have a "thing" with the number 23. You might have a thing, or not, for the color blue, or purple polka-dot panties, or the number 42. But for me, I like 23 (not that I don't like purple polka dot panties, or blue). This is going back, touching on the beginning. The first book I bought about Angels had "2300" on the sleeve, as the recommended price for it. And the girl who brought me to "Angels", again, her last name was "Price", eh? Eh. Yes. You, could not say it definitely couldn't be. I'm saying, it could. Not that this is really the most important thing, right now. ...I met her on 23rd day, of 2009, omitting personal details, and the movie, the one to come out one year after, the first number presented in it is 23rd (well, December 23rd, and 2010, maybe, so 12/23/10. 12 might also be seen as something, and something might be taken from it, and 10, and every number has relevance somewhere, to something/someone, but I have a certain bias to see it, I guess (but why the bias?)), as the date, being two days before Christmas, before the invasion of Angels took place, to kill the new "Christ", or savior, who saved the world, again. God wanted to kill the people, because he was pissed, again. Vengeful asshole. I mean who is he taking vengeance on? GOD IS A SCHIZOPHRENIC (though, not really, but yes, according to a definition of schizophrenic it comes from "split-mind". We just assign the word to people who are mentally ill... But really, the literal translation is much more broad, and might include you, me, Jesus, God, the nature of "reality/"realities" itself, perhaps- I don't know). And psychotic, sometimes.

And God is good, and glorious, and graceful.

I see synchronicity and angels as with one another, not that either directly implies everything about the other, but not that it doesn't. But then, an "Angel" is a "messenger", and synchronicity and seeing "signs" and reading messages aren't at all far apart. But in these instances, I felt synchronicity. In the movie, "Legion", there's a character named "Jeep", who tries to protect this girl. He's good at fixing cars, and making things, one of the things Michael has been associated with... The fixing of electronics/machinery, and things. Well, on the way to see this movie, stopped at a stop light, I turn I look to my left to see a Jeep (pre-movie) and some fellow inside, who does this strange expression, to me. I hadn't seen and didn't know much about the movie. I was going in part because of the timing, and relevance with it. The guy, had a strong resemblance to this actor, who played "Jeep", in the movie. Perhaps I can't explain this, but it all fell together, for me. One might argue that I myself, am crazy, and schizo, for feeling so close to these things, but I can say that so many people out there have two arms, two legs, two eyes, and similar bodies, and there are many people who look so close, and who have the same jobs, and who do the same things. There are many sames, and many differences, and on levels variations of all of that, within. We are all in God's image, and we move through God's moving image. The relevance of movies, and anything you see, should not be discounted- the possibility of it. God wants to be close, to us.

I don't know, I guess I am preparing for battle, with these words, because I am so used to it. Thanks, if you don't want to fight me. But this was an experience. I related with characters. Stories seemed to reflect my life... Or we reflected the same image.

But back to the point, it's confusing. There's not just "darkness and light", with a line dividing it. There are a lot of lines. And even we are created with two sides. And I guess this might just be one, as many as it might be, or might have fallen to.

Now time to humble myself. Probably.
 
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this is all very interesting, but personally from what i have gathered i would see it as a great mistake to worship lucifer(if there is such a thing). if he were to be a rebel angel, who became jealous of Christ and caused disruption to then be cast out from heaven, to now be working to make right what wrong he did do, it would be detouring to his to evolution back to heaven by achieving praise when his work is to get others to recognize the purity of Christ and God.

i like what it says in the Bhadvad-Gita which is relatable to this subject:

9.25 Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.
 
Yes it is better, I agree. Though one who is poor, can't travel, and holds no political power, can't do very much.

Walk in to the nearest Soup Kitchen and volunteer - it costs nothing, requires no political clout, and is probably only a few miles from where you live. Besides this, there are many other ways you could donate your help to your community. Live your convictions.

I would love to have all the money and time in the world to solve all the earth's problems, with all the violence that is going on around the world, such as places in the middle east - Syria - etc, the only thing one can do is pray for peace, forgiveness, and mercy.

You can donate pocket change to UNICEF and it would be far more useful than the most sincere prayer.

I'm sure Christ would much prefer action (however minimal) over faith in such circumstances.
 
Walk in to the nearest Soup Kitchen and volunteer - it costs nothing, requires no political clout, and is probably only a few miles from where you live. Besides this, there are many other ways you could donate your help to your community. Live your convictions.

You can donate pocket change to UNICEF and it would be far more useful than the most sincere prayer.

I'm sure Christ would much prefer action (however minimal) over faith in such circumstances.

You are assuming things now. I do volunteer at Feed My Starving Children through church, we put together nutrient dense packages that get sent to places over Africa. I have donated to UNICEF, but I am not happy with what they have done with my email and mailing address, they have sent me more letters and papers worth of money then I can even donate, I would rather them not send me letters in the mail weekly along with selling my information to other charities that also send me wasted paper that I can only recycle, and instead I wish they would save the paper and mailing costs/money to further donate instead. The only reasons I didn't mention it at first is because I don't boast about what I do, but since you bring it up, there you go.

I can only control so much, for what I can't control, I put my faith in God.
 
You are assuming things now. I do volunteer at Feed My Starving Children through church, we put together nutrient dense packages that get sent to places over Africa. I have donated to UNICEF, but I am not happy with what they have done with my email and mailing address, they have sent me more letters and papers worth of money then I can even donate, I would rather them not send me letters in the mail weekly along with selling my information to other charities that also send me wasted paper that I can only recycle, and instead I wish they would save the paper and mailing costs/money to further donate instead. The only reasons I didn't mention it at first is because I don't boast about what I do, but since you bring it up, there you go.

Fair enough. You made it sound like contributing to your community is somehow out of your hands and thus prayer is the only alternative. Unfortunately many of the Christians I've interacted with through the years adopt the idea that prayer is more meaningful and effective than actively working to improve the world, and that bugs me. I volunteer at a local Open Door Mission (a Christian organization) a few times a year and, ironically, it seems most of the other volunteers I've met are non-religious.

Kudos for actually doing something - even if it seems insignificant next to the worlds big problems, every little bit helps.
 
ninae said:
No, angels are the original group of souls created as an extention of God. They have no real will of their own and can only share in divine consciousness, so they can't be anything but holy and perfect, and only see paradise.

what 23 said:
He did not have anything that we might call "free-will". Therefore, he never did anything he was not supposed to do.

I know Islam contends that angels are without free will, but I was unaware Christianity held that position (pretty sure Judaism doesn't). Can you cite me the scriptural basis for this doctrine?

what said:
It is not clear. Is Lucifer The Satan? How would a being with the name Light/Light-bearer not have light in/with him? Why is he (or, if not the same, "The Satan"), AND Jesus, both, called the "morning star"?

IIRC Satan (literally, the accuser or opposer) was first brought up in the book of Job and was merely held to be an angel by Judaism at this point. Associating Satan with serpent in the garden, and his being evil was something that came about around the turn of the millenium. The morning star (Lucifer) thing is from Isaiah 14:12, and was associated with Satan at some point. I dunno.
 
^Thank you.

I honestly don't know, about free will. It was one of those things that I I just assumed based on everything I have heard. Probably shouldn't repeat without knowing for sure what sources say.

Still, I don't necessarily subscribe to any religion at the moment, though I edge toward/am primarily influenced by Christianity, due to upbringing, for one.

Still, I don't know if I believe free will is even possible. Ongoing...

Thanks for checking me.

Ninae, do you know anything about free will and angels, according to Judaism/Christianity?

Hmm... Just looked into some stuff. Thanks for bringing this up. Yet, still, I don't know. Stuff could seem either way.

...Now I'm seeing some interpretations of stuff from Judaism which seem to point to no free will for angels. Will need to read more.
 
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