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The Big and Bangin' Pseudo-Advanced Drug Chemistry, Pharmacology and More Thread, V.2

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some L-tyrosine with B-6 to [...] will get me more L-dopa, in small amounts?

Not neccesarily, vit. B6 is not the rate limiting factor in DOPA synthesis.

Also, the idea that depression/anxiety is due to "low levels fo neurotransmitters", and especially the idea that "more dopamine = more happiness" are both unfounded. There's no real evidence to suggest either of those things are true. Granted, some antidepressants act by temporarily increasing monoamine levels, but they also do other things, and there are some tools for treating depression that hardly effect monoamine synthesis or levels in a direct way at all...

For the average Joe, "getting more dopamine" is likely to bring on uncomfortable hyperdopaminergic side effects, not some sort of generalised euphoria.
 
Not neccesarily, vit. B6 is not the rate limiting factor in DOPA synthesis.

What else is needed?

Wikipedia again:
The important amino acid called Tyrosine is a precursor to Levodopa and is also available over the counter. This supplement converts into Dopamine, Norepinephrine and Epinephrine as well.

from what I've read elsewhere you just need Vitamin B6 to get the L-Tyrosine to do it's thing and such, what am I missing?
 
There are internal genetic regulatory factors that prevent tyrosine from being turned into L-dopa in hazardous levels. When levels of DOPA go up, the enzyme making DOPA from tyrosine slows down. You can't make it go any faster by taking supplements...

If you had workers building a house, you can give them all the lumber and nails in the world, but they won't build any faster if they already have enough. Same for most enzymes in your body.

Even if you could get the enzyme making DOPA to go faster - DOPA is broken down very rapidly in the body, so very little of the produced dopamine would ever make it into your brain. When people are treated with L-DOPA they are usually treated with a drug like carbidopa that also stops L-DOPA from being broken down anywhere but the brain.
 
There are internal genetic regulatory factors that prevent tyrosine from being turned into L-dopa in hazardous levels. When levels of DOPA go up, the enzyme making DOPA from tyrosine slows down. You can't make it go any faster by taking supplements...

So you actually can but as I said in my first post you develop a tolerance to it, which is why I asked if anyone knew how long that tolerance buildup takes before "the enzyme making DOPA from tyrosine slows down".
 
No, trust me on this, you can't make your body make more neurotransmitters just by taking more vitamins. Your body is not 'tolerant' to the vitamins; it is simply that the enzyme only makes the chemical reaction proceed at a certain rate and that are is unaffected by the concentration of cofactors.

There is a reason people treat Parkinsons with L-DOPA and carbidopa instead of telling them to eat a diet high in tyrosine and eat plenty of vit B6.
 
Also, the idea that depression/anxiety is due to "low levels fo neurotransmitters", and especially the idea that "more dopamine = more happiness" are both unfounded.

how in the hell is it unfounded? are you just completely dismissing the entire field of psychopharmacology? there are thousands of peer reviewed tests and shit that show antidepressants working much better than placebo. To deny they do anything is just silly. If you have any evidence to the contrary i'd like to read it.

How do you explain MDMA if you think all of this is unfounded? placebo effect? people just feel intense euphoria and happiness from placebo, that just happens to react on the exact neurotransmitters we're talking about? please. I really don't get your angle. why do you have nearly 9,000 posts on a forum dedicated to discussing drugs that alter brain chemistry only to deny scientific facts, do you think they work by magic?
 
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how in the hell is it unfounded? are you just completely dismissing the entire field of psychopharmacology? there are thousands of peer reviewed tests and shit that show antidepressants working much better than placebo. To deny they do anything is just silly. If you have any evidence to the contrary i'd like to read it.

How do you explain MDMA if you think all of this is unfounded? placebo effect? people just feel intense euphoria and happiness from placebo, that just happens to react on the exact neurotransmitters we're talking about? please. I really don't get your angle. why do you have nearly 9,000 posts on a forum dedicated to discussing drugs that alter brain chemistry only to deny scientific facts, do you think they work by magic?

Calm your dick bro. The monoamine theory of depression is mostly discredited. For example though MASSIVE spikes in most monoamine levels can cause feelings of euphoria (think MDMA and high dose amphetamine), moderate though still highly significant increases have no effect. Your SNRI probably increases your 5HT and NE levels 200% but do you feel a sudden change? Not really. It's massive flux that can change mood and you're not going to get that with diet unless you want to go the JoePedo route where you're taking like 40 highly potent herbal extracts too.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-494408.html

Here's some pretty damning evidence for the "DA=happy" theory. DA is more involved in wanting, lactation, and motor control than happiness. Also, amphetamines are FAR dirtier drugs than you would believe. Other receptors and downstream pathways are likely involved in the mood boost, hell there are a ton of studies suggesting endorphin activity as a major mediator of the effects.
 
i think he said "unfounded" when he meant "not entirely proven"

there definitely is a correlation though, and to not at least acknowledge that higher neurotrasmitter levels may improve depression would be ridiculous
 
at least acknowledge that higher neurotrasmitter levels may improve depression

There's no real evidence that it does? Okay, sure, some depressed people have lower levels of monoamines, but when they don't respond to treatments that should work "on paper" (SNRIs)... what do you do then? You can stand around and argue about correlation all day, it doesn't change the mere nature of depression: that it is not tied to just monoamines! Turns out the rat model of depression that most antidepressants have been marketed for ... is a poor model for human depression!
 
sekio said:
Also, the idea that depression/anxiety is due to "low levels fo neurotransmitters", and especially the idea that "more dopamine = more happiness" are both unfounded.

Indeed. It seems to me that localized pathology in neuroplasticity plays the primary physiological role in the presentation and maintenance of depression (in particular because this localized lack of neuroplacticity will reduce one's ability to learn from situations with novel outcomes, which can increase discouragement). All known anti-depressants affect this mechanism indirectly.

ebola
 
I agree that the "higher neurotransmitters = happiness" idea is nonsense. Consider that the concept of functional selectivity complicates things massively at the basic level of the neuron, and that the idea is only a few years old. The human brain is the most complicated thing in known existence, and we can't even solve the three-body problem. Even lower back pain is so complicated the standard policy is to tell doctors "stop trying to interpret fMRI and give them bed rest." The most functional prosthetic limb today is hardly different than what it was in the 19th century. What we do is try to fit what we can understand to profoundly more complex phenomena and when there's some weak confirmation from evidence that we're looking for we take it as validation of our gross oversimplifications. Granted, often times that's useful enough under the circumstances. I'm not saying it's not worth theorizing, but especially with the brain we need to maintain perspective.
 
no one ever it was absolutely tied to just monoamines. it's awesome that you are spreading the knowledge that there is more to the story than that, but monoamine levels are most definitely part of the story.
^They're part of the current story, but very far from "definite," and I think that's the essential point he's making given the cogent presence of counter evidence. All this is to say that the results of grossly elevating monoamines may very well be accidents that are not remotely reflective of the truth yet help confirm oversimplified current theories we cling to because of their accessibility. Imagine that it's far in the future -- how far is totally uncertain -- and we know exactly the physical state of the brain that constitutes the optimal physiological state for happiness of some individual. Does that individual, on average, have profoundly raised levels of monoamines relative to normal or not?
 
DA is more involved in wanting

exactly. wanting. rewards. this is basic stuff.

Also, if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance#Monoamine_hypothesis is largely discredited, then why do antidepressants work? (actual question, i'm not being sarcastic) I've tried multiple and Effexor is the only one that I actually felt a real change from, and I can tell the difference between something just in my head and something real happening. So why do they work? (again, actual question)
 
Imagine that it's far in the future -- how far is totally uncertain -- and we know exactly the physical state of the brain that constitutes the optimal physiological state for happiness of some individual. Does that individual, on average, have profoundly raised levels of monoamines relative to normal or not?

good thought experiment, but of course no one knows the answer to this :)
 
exactly. wanting. rewards. this is basic stuff.

Also, if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance#Monoamine_hypothesis is largely discredited, then why do antidepressants work? (actual question, i'm not being sarcastic) I've tried multiple and Effexor is the only one that I actually felt a real change from, and I can tell the difference between something just in my head and something real happening. So why do they work? (again, actual question)

Well there are a few theories based on neuroplasticity and transcriptional changes, but they're the kind of vague unsatisfying answer no one (my self included likes). I know that there are several receptors that are upregulated and downregulated in depression, and that all antidepressant treatments seem to result in changes to their expression, but the real answer is we don't know which are just consequences of a greater change and which effect depression directly. Monoamines are definitely involved, but in a very indirect way as best we can tell.

The monoamine theory of depression is kind of like looking at a car and saying it makes people less hungry. In reality it only looks that way because a car can help people get to the store and buy food. Hope that made sense, I'm kind of wiped out lol.
 
What are some of the most prevalent theories? I think I understand what you're saying. Basically the up/down regulated neurotransmitters may just be a symptom or a result of the actual mechanism of action? That's what I'm getting from it anyway. Which is actually kind of worrying. It sounds like we're just throwing things at the brain and hoping something sticks, and as long as it appears to work whether we know how or not, and it doesn't cause any serious side effects, it's packaged and sold?
 
I think the rat/mouse model is the best we have, and clinical trials suggest that its at least similar enough.

There are several other classes of ADs other than SNRIs.

The monoamine theory (and particularly that involving serotonin) is the most founded, unless you have a multitude of sources saying otherwise, because I can search for two minutes and come up with five sources pointing to monoamine deficiency.
 
Oh sure, it's the best model we've got but I think the hit-and-miss nature of depression treatments is a shining example of how little we know about the topic. I don't think anyone was trying to claim they knew the underlying causes, just that raising monoamine levels is rarely an effective treatment on its own.
 
It sounds like we're just throwing things at the brain and hoping something sticks, and as long as it appears to work whether we know how or not, and it doesn't cause any serious side effects, it's packaged and sold?

Unfortunately, this is the best medicine can manage at times. When we don't have a clear understanding of the underlying causal nature of a disease like depression sometimes the best we can really do is the "brute force" method of trying various compounds until you get ones that produce acceptable effects without too much in the way of side effects.

There are still drugs prescribed like Lamictical and stuff that we know works (as an anti-seizure med for instance) but we are left in the dark grasping at straws as to exactly why. Same for some drugs that prevent cancer development. At one time people didn't even know how barbiturates worked. Honestly though, the FDA does not see this as a problem, because the alternative is leaving the condition totally untreated in a lot of cases. If the side effect profile is well-established before the drug is released, even if the mechanims is unknown, then doctors can prescribe with a modicum of safety.

The current paradigm of antidepressant development has brought us this far, but with current research, we are learning that maybe we weren't right all along. It's just going to take a while before researchers can put all the puzzle pieces together and come up with mechanistic explanations that would be more satisfying than the current ones. Like EA said, we are kind of running on fumes in the whole antidepressant department right now, and the best we can manage is something like "most antidepressants exert nonspecific changes in neural growth and plasticity". Wheether or not this effect is from activation of select serotonin receptors, activity at a secondary target, or from some combination of factors, remains to be established.

I think the rat/mouse model is the best we have

I think honestly, murine models are pretty shitty and you might as well be using C. elegans or something. It is the best we really have, though, unless you considere "live fire testing" on real depressed people a good ethical choice. The rat depression tests, to me, do not seem to correlate to humans very well; I don't know many people who are forced to swim around to find platforms in submerged tanks, for instance. There is also evidence that other systems models beased on rats/mice, like the model of obesity, do not exactly translate very well to humans (remove gene XYZ in rats, they never become obese, remove XYZ gene in humans and they don't live past 3 months)
 
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