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CE&P social thread: why do the people I disagree with hate freedom so much?

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Multiculturalism vs. Assimiliation

I find that the neo-liberal ideas of multiculturalism are much like the segregation of 19th century America. It's ideas are about seperating people by race, culture, and language while welcoming an influx of cheap and willing immigrant labor. It's ideas are not about mutual respect for cultures, but enforcing a vain cultural pride in each group of people. This will lead to more ethnic enclaves, less intermarriages, and competition among groups, leading to the ultimate neo-capitalist outcome, a desperate workforce that will work for less.

The personal and social fallout can be great from such a wicked design. It's also fun to note that all cultures are to be proudly recognized and equal, our media clearly still holds that to be American is to be white, while everyone else is part of an ethnic group. I find that disgusting.

Real assimilation would occur organically like it has in cultures for thousands of years. Assimilation is not conformity. Assimilation is the merging of two or more groups into one. Each group shares and adopts aspects of each culture. Italian immigrants adopted the English language and white Americans prepare spaghetti and pizza every week. Roman Catholicism and Judaism have become as American as Pie. But, these "late comers" such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus (which actually have been in this country for over a century, just in smaller numbers) are ging to remain apart from those who managed to assimilate before the great gate of multiculturalism locked them outsode the white neighborhoods and white society. We don't need any more shitty sitcoms with sterotypical token Hindu guys that have funny accents and excellent IT skills. Hindus have been born for many generations in America and it's time to stop this vaudevillian multicultural show and accept them as the Americans that they have become.
 
^^do people still call people from India "Hindus" and not "Indians"? Or people from Asia "Buddhists"? I think that went out with the 90s.
 
^I was talking to MFR, hence my use of two carets. I should cut that out because a lot of people don't count carets.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I disagree.

 
i don't (didn't. and now i know what the 'lil upwards arrow thingy' is called :D )

fwiw, is 'indians' no longer pc? i guess i probably use that for both (red and dot)
 
MyFinalRest said:
Real assimilation would occur organically like it has in cultures for thousands of years. Assimilation is not conformity. Assimilation is the merging of two or more groups into one. Each group shares and adopts aspects of each culture. Italian immigrants adopted the English language and white Americans prepare spaghetti and pizza every week. Roman Catholicism and Judaism have become as American as Pie. But, these "late comers" such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus (which actually have been in this country for over a century, just in smaller numbers) are ging to remain apart from those who managed to assimilate before the great gate of multiculturalism locked them outsode the white neighborhoods and white society. We don't need any more shitty sitcoms with sterotypical token Hindu guys that have funny accents and excellent IT skills. Hindus have been born for many generations in America and it's time to stop this vaudevillian multicultural show and accept them as the Americans that they have become.
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Yes, but there will initially be a dominant in-group majority and an out-group minority. Unless you're in favor of a forced cultural assimilation policy, leaving cultures alone to assimilate themselves is the only other option. This is the core of multiculturalism, allowing out-group minority cultures to coexist alongside in-group majority cultures without being forced to integrate faster than the would naturally integrate while allowing them to celebrate their own culture and heritage. The US, Australia, Canada and parts of Europe really don't have entire minority groups (with certain exceptions) that fail to integrate with the whole of society culturally. First generation immigrants are likely to adhere to their home culture for the most part, but their children and grandchildren are likely to integrate into the culture at large without forced cultural homogeneity.

The idea that Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists fail to integrate into the society at large is just untrue. Yoga is fucking everywhere these days, and many aspects of eastern culture has made its way into the American mainstream. My psychology professor was an Indian whose parents were first generation immigrants, and he is a fully integrated member of society.

This "white society" and these "white neighborhoods" you talk about are products of the socio-economic system at work. It has little to do with multicultural policy. If everyone was to conform to the same cultural identity, it would have little impact on the hindrance of social mobility, we would just have separate classes of people with the same cultural background. Look at India, after centuries of the caste social structure there are still sharply defined social and economic classes despite having a homogenous cultural make up.
 
I can't believe that since I don't adhere to every fashionable liberal huffpost fart festival and retarded racist TV shows like the Big Bang Theory and Family Guy and Simpsons that I'm accused of being racist. I'm not the one sniggering at every race joke while watching Family Guy reruns.

At least I had the sense not to join the military where I would be forced to commit intolerable acts of racism and murder.

Bardeaux, you are being a real jerk about this. I've never said that immigrants have any problems integrating into our society - it's white multiculturalists that want to keep them seperated. White capitalist liberals are the ones producing the racism and division. You always were a hopeless case to try to discuss anything with because you skew and twist everyhting into bizarre straw arguments.

You have no real ideas of what is going on in the economy or with race. Liberals like you will hand elections to the Republican party time and time again.

If everyone was to conform to the same cultural identity, it would have little impact on the hindrance of social mobility, we would just have separate classes of people with the same cultural background. Look at India, after centuries of the caste social structure there are still sharply defined social and economic classes despite having a homogenous cultural make up.
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I don't like the idea of stratifying people that much at all, but I would rather be stratified based on economics than on race. Whether you're poor or rich, you still don't get a chance to belong because this country is still 3/4 white. I'd rather be poor and accepted than rich and just a little tiny fraction of a particular race clique. We will never eliminate elitism, but if color lines broke down among the poor, they could at least get together and bargain for some real wages.

Some cultural aspects like the Indian caste system can fucking stay in India too. We can welcome as much culture as we can, but shit like the caste system is not needed here, but it has made it's way here already.

If we give Indians (it's Hindus who have the caste system so I should say Hindus) the chance to come here assimilate and become members of the democratic life as our fore fathers intended it we are doing them a great favor by helping them escape such a system. If we are going to forcefeed multicultural identy crises down everyone's throat, then good luck with them trying to be able to identify themselves as anything but a cultural stereotype.

The effect on education of this multicultural hypocrisy is that youth is no longer encouraged to question their own assumptions and those of their parents and society. Students must accept uncritically whatever it is they're being offered rather than use their faculty of reasoning and the exercise of independent judgment. Multiculturalism demands obedience to authority, the authority of the ethnic group. Youth cannot be expected to be colour blind if we teach them that their identity is determined uniquely by the colour of their skin. To destroy or neutralise the faculty of reason will prevent the promotion of self-esteem, and teaching collective identities cannot induce it. How can one expect people to see others as individuals if one advocates multiculturalism? But then that isn't the idea, is it?
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But I don't expect such an idea to sink in. It's strange how liberals and cons think it's acceptable to invade every country to force people to conform to a way of life under the barrel of a gun but yet deny them any chance to shape their own identities in this country. Such hypocrisy. I suppose you guiys wouldn't want to threaten your personal vaudeville show here in the States because of the amount of ignorance and boredom plaguing your lives!

Sorry for the interuption, now back to your scheduled program!
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MyFinalRest said:
Bardeaux, you are being a real jerk about this. I've never said that immigrants have any problems integrating into our society - it's white multiculturalists that want to keep them seperated.
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Seriously?

MyFinalRest said:
But, these "late comers" such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus (which actually have been in this country for over a century, just in smaller numbers) are ging to remain apart from those who managed to assimilate before the great gate of multiculturalism locked them outsode the white neighborhoods and white society.
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I went on to explain that this is a socio-economic problem, not a multicultural problem.
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So you are essentially saying that we should stratify people based on their ethnicity or else WE HAVE to do it based on economic class? We don't have to stratify people at all.
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Did someone say strawman? I gave you an example of a culturally homogeneous society with just as much class division as a multicultural society, no where did I say I was in favor of such social stratification ethnically or economically. This means it's not cultural diversity that produces class structure if it can also occur in a culturally homogenous society. Pointing out the notion that economic classes exist isn't the same as supporting the idea that they should exist. Pointing out that groups shouldn't be forced to adopt any culture they don't want to isn't the same as supporting racial stratification. You're talking to someone who would like to erase class boundaries and drastically alter the social and economic structure of the modern capitalist world.

If we give Indians (it's Hindus who have the caste system so I should say Hindus) the chance to come here assimilate and become members of the democratic life as our fore fathers intended it we are doing them a great favor by helping them escape such a system. If we are going to forcefeed multicultural identy crises down everyone's throat, then good luck with them trying to be able to identify themselves as anything but a cultural stereotype.
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Like I said, my psychology professor was the son of two first generation Indian immigrants. He had no accent, no discernible attributes that would cause anyone to think he's not a sixth generation immigrant. I don't understand your point. Maybe you watch too much tv?

Multiculturalism demands obedience to authority, the authority of the ethnic group. Youth cannot be expected to be colour blind if we teach them that their identity is determined uniquely by the colour of their skin.
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This isn't any more true than saying interculturalism demands obedience to authority of the national identity. Youth cannot practice the traditions of their ancestors or celebrate their own unique identity if we teach them that their identity is determined uniquely by the borders they were born between.
 
Bardeaux said:
]This isn't any more true than saying interculturalism demands obedience to authority of the national identity.
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And that can actually be a very good thing. We can appeal to a higher morality, a higher consciousness, and a nation based on fairness, equality, and reason.

You can still do your Irish dancing, Thor worship, Chinese Zodiacs and Cinso De Mayos, but when you make these things an "identity" thing like you so eagerly suggest, then black people can't do Irish dancing or THor worshipping because they African and they can only learn the tribal dances of their people or else it won't make sense.

No, I think it's better to let your individualism, common civic threads, and geography to be your primary identity. I'm Irish and Italian. Under mutliculural identity-ism, I'm supposed to eat stromboli every night while dancing like I got pogo stick up my ass while listening to endless tunes drone on in triplet meter. A guy like me shows up at the African tribal dance club or the Thor's society and they're like "uhhh...you kinda don't fit in."

Youth cannot practice the traditions of their ancestors or celebrate their own unique identity if we teach them that their identity is determined uniquely by the borders they were born between.
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And is not more oppressive to limit someone to identify with the color of their skin or where their ancestors were from? Truth is, it doesn't mean shit anymore for anybody. In America, we will always allow you liberals to flake out at some Native American Pow Wow or Hatha Yoga retreat, but don't forget who you really are and where you really are and the fact that you will have to find common ground with the people you look at and work with everyday because you share the same geographic location. Finding common ground with people of such a wide array of ethinicities means sacrificing the importance of cultural identity. Sure, it's fine to practice some ancient arts, bet let's not make a big deal out of it or we'll end up fracturing this society and nobody will speak to anybody they don't already know. Also, if we don't make a big identity case out of it, we can have black guys getting Thor Hammer tattoos and its all good.

That's the small price we pay to not have racism and racial cliques that discriminate against one-another. It's called the "New World" for a reason. If having some different cultural idenity is so damn important to you, go move back to the old world nation you desire where geography did shape the unique culutral idenity you want so much. I don't want to be forced to become a Guido Mick Catholic Shithead that ends up the butt of some sitcom joke. I just want to be me, thank you.

Or, maybe we should throw our enlightened and freer society away to turn the clock back to a time where Jews only married other Jews and Hindus follow arranged marriages based on a rigid and oppressive caste system.
 
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There is a lot to be said on this matter, and I will say it too.

Fmr French President Sarkozy on multiculturalism:
“My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure,” he said in a television interview when asked about the policy which advocates that host societies welcome and foster distinct cultural and religious immigrant groups.

“Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want… a society where communities coexist side by side.

“If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France,” the right-wing president said.

“The French national community cannot accept a change in its lifestyle, equality between men and women… freedom for little girls to go to school,” he said.

“We have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him,” Sarkozy said in the TFI channel show.
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I can't disagree with him. Nobody is too happy from it.

UK Prime Minister David Cameron:
Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and apart from the mainstream. We’ve failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong.
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I agree that you have to acknowledge the very very powerful effects of geography has on people. Geography forces people to be with each other, but nobody wants to see groups living side by side who act completely aloof. Individualism is good, different races and cultures are fine, but their must be an over-arching sense of inter-connectedness, even if it's not much.

I also like how he concedes that
We’ve failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong
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America isn't doing well with its horribly shitty pop culture, fast food, economic exploitation, and illegal wars to provide a vision we can all adhere too. We used to somewhat have one that worked actually.
Even worse, the media in all of it's desperateness or conspiring is constantly resorting to ethnic based comedy. How the fuck do they think that's supposed to make it work or maybe they don't intend to make it work?

I'll concede that we don't provide a very nice alternative to old world cultures anymore, and we can't even make decent music now.

I'd love to go to France and be as French as possible. Otherwise, why would you want to go to live there? It makes sense to me. Otherwise you are just going to irritate other people and yourself.
 
Bardeaux said:
^In short:

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Or get the fuck out of Rome, because you're not welcome.

This is what Cameron and Sarkozy mean to say.
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Roman's do it pretty good I must say...but it's not the ultra-conformist picture you are painting here. Not at all.
Multiculturalism has created isolation and people of different groups are not relating to one another at all or hardly even talking to one another. Apparently, it got bad in Europe.

Cameron is at least admitting that western capitalist materialist sex-objectification culture is not helping.
 
MyFinalRest said:
Multiculturalism has created isolation and people of different groups are not relating to one another at all or hardly even talking to one another.
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I really don't want to continue with this if we're just going to go around in circles, we'll have to agree to disagree. But as I said earlier, with certain exceptions, people are grouped by socio-economic status much more often than they're grouped by racial, cultural or ethnic identity. For example, it's no secret that african americans are particularly disenfranchised in the US. But why? Is it because they've failed to assimilate with "American culture"? No, infact they've helped define American culture as their own has greatly influenced the mainstream culture. There are exceptions, like the native american reservations where there are relatively closed off cultures but generally this isn't the case at all. It's the economic system that drives stratification and division, there are no laws that cultures cannot intermingle or interact, not since the civil rights act was signed. But there are economic barriers to social mobility that keep people where they are. Nationalism and national conformity just creates different problems, and does nothing to solve the "us v them" problem. What you have instead is an "us" (the dominant in group) and the "them" (the minority out group).

Cameron is at least admitting that western capitalist materialist sex-objectification culture is not helping.
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Lol what? Where did Cameron mention capitalism and it's inefficiency?
 
He says something here:
We’ve failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong
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I posted the hell out of it earlier.

C'mon Bardaeux, you know this damn forum ain't nothing but circles. I see a clear direction though, and when you have all major European leaders across the whole spectrum saying it failed, you should take notice.

When we had ideas based on integration, lots of cultures did shape America. That good shit stopped when liberals rolled out the mutliculti funbag circus on everyone.

Multiculturalism is an all or nothing approach to race relations. At least the old melting pot forged some commonality and people talked to each other while adding many unique flavors to the mix.

There is a difference between de jure segregation and de facto segregation.
 
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