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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

EADD Theology Megathread

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^ well I never knew that, good knowledge Pink, thanks :)

My mum had to live with a quaker family temporarily as a child, she said they took her along to meetings where nothing was said, and she would sit and watch the flies buzz around the room. I think they meet silently to reflect, or something. I know they supported gay marriage, must read up a bit more. I'm so ignorant.
 
Interesting stuff about brum quakers. as far as ive seen the amish are quite a bit more 'religious' and strict; the usual stereotype quaker image looks similar mainly becasue the porridge (i don't think quakers dress like that any more - maybe wrong) - from what ive seen the amish seem to have some nice-ish communities, but they seem pretty fundamentalist and bible-bound (and so can seem idiotic at times). Quakers (society of friends) don't have to follow the bible or what any priest says - everyone finds the holy spirit their own way (or something) - in their meetings there's no vicar and anyone can speak if the spirit moves them (or they can be arsed in normal words) - there are some sort of agreed guidelines/rules that quaker communities can follow (more legalistic than religious), and i think there are some groups that are more 'traditional' than others - i think that's right (couldn't be arsed to google)

I've also tempered my view on catholicism a tiny bit since reading some stuff about liberation theology - it arose out of vatican II conference set up by john paul I (early 60s i think), which wanted to return to the original message of the early christians - in particular the social justice aspect of jesus (probably a v. simplistic overview (i'm sure there were still plenty of bigots and paedos to go round)). Vatican II was pretty much abandoned from the end of the 60s by the church (i think John paul II was against it too)

The liberation theology movement took this social aspect seriously, working with the poorest and campaiging for social reform (basically socialist reform) - they were most prevalent in south and central america - consequently the CIA 'school of americas' and their ilk took it as their mission to stamp out liberation theology (no doubt with encouragement and help from conservative vatican types) - and pretty much did it (by killing and torturing lots of priests and others). Once again i think all that's right (there's probably wikipedias about it ;) ) i'm sure some (maybe all) of those liberation theology priests had some views i would disagree with, but social justice i'd think should come first anyway (and the other stuff will follow)

Speaking of interesting catholics, i quite like teillhard de chardin (and tipler's) omega point stuff - though mostly as a cool matrix-esque sci-fi plot (eg Darwinia by robert charles wilson - an excellent book) I find good sci fi's so much better than religion at pressing the sense of wonder buttons (obviously i mean books - and the good stuff, like m john harrison, adam roberts, ken macleod etc) - anyway - sorry for the word-blurt
 
Was gonna post a pic of Mohammed wiv peas 'pon him. After viewing the options I decided best not to. Somewhat tasteless even for me would you believe 8(

Also, haven't forgotten your uberpost, Raas. Will reply properly soon. Is a bit lengthy though so am working up to it ;)
 
Quakers (society of friends) don't have to follow the bible or what any priest says - everyone finds the holy spirit their own way (or something) - in their meetings there's no vicar and anyone can speak if the spirit moves them (or they can be arsed in normal words) - there are some sort of agreed guidelines/rules that quaker communities can follow (more legalistic than religious), and i think there are some groups that are more 'traditional' than others - i think that's right (couldn't be arsed to google)

The more I hear about these Quakeys the more I like them. Anyone here a Quaker or born into a Quaker family?
 
Raas_2012: 1) 'The Gospels were written by the Disciples of Jesus.': Are you using "Disciples" interchangably with "Apostles?" There is a distinct difference. IF you actually do mean "Disciples," do you mean it in the literal sense or as a label for anyone accepting the teachings of Christ? I ask these questions because the absolute earliest any of the 4 canonical Gospels could have been written would have been 71 CE/AD, with the consensus being at least 80 CE/AD (the earliest generally being considered Matthew and in Verse 22 it mentions the destruction of the Temple, an event that transpired in 70 CE/AD). Jesus would have been Crucified in between 33 and 36 CE/AD (36 CE/AD being the last year that Pontius Pilate served as Procurator of Judaea). The point being, nobody who lived during Jesus' lifetime had any direct role in the Gospels.

2) 'Jesus was G-D and therefore it seems as if the authors of the "Old Testament" did not depict G-D accurately.': IF Jesus ever lived he was a religious Jew. What many Christians fail to realise is that all "touchy feely" stuff in the so called "New Testament" is interspersed with Jesus labeling non-Jews as mangy bitches and offering that he came to divide father against son. The teachings attributed to Jesus are almost always Jewish teachings taken out of context by Christians. Put simply, believing in Christianity is like buying a 1,200 page book, opening immediately to page 1,100 and imagining you understand the big picture.

3) 'Mark was an Apostle of Peter.;: The word "Apostle" means "One who goes forth" and refers to those men chosen BY Jesus to go forth and spread his message. Peter cannot have an "Apostle." He CAN have a "Disciple" which denotes a student.
 
Shambles: Post #404:

1) 'Did Matthew or Mark come first?': There is a wider consensus that Matthew was first but there are academics adhering to the converse.

2) 'One copied from the other.': There is a theory that holds that Matthew plagiarised Mark but the consensus is that Matthew was first. In truth, what Christians now posses is nothing at all like the original source materiel. For example, interpolations in Matthew such as Trinitarian doctrine which is late 2nd Century CE/AD (the pro-Trinitarian line is that any mention of "Holy Spirit" and "G-D the Father," which can be found as early as 110 CE/AD outside of the Gospels, is proof that Trinitarian dogma was not a later affectation. However, in reality, it is merely a reference to standard beliefs within Judaism that have absolutely nothing to do with the Trinity- which of course is anathema to Judaism).

Post #410


1) 'The Gospels tend to corroborate one another.': The Synoptics yes, but not the 4th. Within the Synoptics there are also glaring contradictions. According to Papias the core of what we now perceive to be the Gospels were a wide and varied collection of writings, known in English as, "The Interpretations of the Sayings of the L-RD." Likewise, Patriarch Ephraem of Antioch only accepted "Dominical Oracles" and "Preaching of the Apostles," with the former being close to what we today label the "Gospels." The fact that literacy was in the low single digits- which you in fact mentioned vis a vis the erroneous belief of some that the Apostles actually authored the works that now bear their names- and the writing down of attributed sayings and deeds took place at least 2 generations after the events contained therein would tend to make one think that very few portions of the so called "New Testament" have any historical value. .

'John 8:7, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" was a later addition.': So says Ehrman. I don't agree with him though much of John (and Mark) is. Even Luke is plagued with such additions. Matthew appears to be pretty much intact.

Post #412

1) 'Christians didn't have to get Jews into Christianity because there were no "Christians" per se. What later became Christianity was just a Jewish sect up until a point.': Yep. Jesus (if he lived) and all the Apostles were devout Jews. They were not "inventing" anything. It isn't until Paul that the movement even considered allowing non-Jews (living AS non-Jews) into the fold. James the Just, the biological brother of Jesus, led the movement in Jerusalem. Paul, as you see in Galatians was irate that non-Jewish members in Galatia were being compelled to undergo circumcision, undergoing a full conversion to Judaism. Of course, in Luke, Jesus himself said that his message was only for Jews and labeled non-Jews as mangy bitches, treating a non-Jewish woman like garbage in the marketplace in Sidon (when she begged for him to heal her demon-possesed her daughter).


The seperation of the nascent movement from Judaism can be said to begin with the possibly apocryphal Council of Jerusalem, which is believed to have taken place in 50 CE/AD (by those that believe it ever took place). Presided over by James the Just it allowed non-Jews to join the fold without having to undergo circumcision. It did mandate adherance to Judaism's moral code, including Kashrut (Dietary Laws) so that even if it actually took place it cannot be viewed as distancing itself from traditional Judaism per se, only that it opened the door to non-Jews joining the movement.

2) 'Most Jews probably view Jesus as a rabbi.': Most do not believe he ever existed and that Paul invented what we now know to be Christianity. There is a minority perspective that considers him to have probably been a rabbi and an equally weak segment who view Jesus as having been a rebel, something Galileans were famous for.
 
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Vurtual Post #409

1) 'What we know to be the "New Testament" was cobbled together from disparate sources.': Absolutely correct.

2) 'Like Nag Hammadi.': No. Nag Hammadi was a trove of papyri relating to Gnostic Christianity. It has practically nothing at all to do with Christianity proper.

3) 'Pontius Pilate didn't kill Jesus. The Jews did.': First, the death penalty ceased with the fall of Herod the Great. The Sanhedrin, in its last 70 years of existence (which includes the time in which Jesus was crucified) only sentenced a single person to death, and it wasn't Jesus. It took place during the Herodian Era. Judaea was a Roman province and the only person capable of sentencing anyone to death and effecting the sentence would be the Roman Procurator, in this case Pontius Pilate.

4) 'Gnostic Christianity was heavily influenced by Greek religion and involved Neo-Platonic Philosophy.': To a very small degree. Druse (Druze) and Alawi (Alawite) belief systems, both offshoots of Shi'a Islam fit that description, not Gnostic Christianity. If you want to examine Gnostic Christianity the Mandeans are the largest true Gnostic Church today.

Post #413:

1) 'How Jesus is perceived within Islam.': Ironically perhaps, the Islamic take on Jesus, or "Issa" as he is known in Arabic, is partially taken from Gnostic Christianity, at least his death anyway. Gnostics tended to view Jesus as being infallible to human pitfalls. Ergo, he could not be executed like a common criminal. To resolve this issue they believed Jesus shapeshifted and had a spectator from the crowd impaled on the Crucifix in his place, morphing the man's features so that the hapless victim now appeared to be Jesus to all who witnessed the garish spectacle. As the "fake Jesus" hung there dying the "real Jesus" stood in the crowd laughing at the ignorance of mortals. Islam views Jesus to be a prophet along the line of Moses. However, the Qur'an makes some very simple mistakes. For example, it claims that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the sister of Moses (both having the same name it evidently confused Muhammad (or the Angel Gabriel if you buy into the Muslim view that the Qur'an is a Divinely authored text transmitted to Muhammad by Gabriel). Islam interestingly believes in an Immaculate Conception. It absolutely rejects the Trinity and any hint of Divinity.


Post #418:

1) 'Liberation Theology within Catholicism.': More degeneracy from Vatican II. It is used as a rationale in mass murder after mass murder and is disgusting. Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Uruguay, Argentina, Colombia...and of course the Philippines. The idea that you are exerting the will of Jesus when you toss grenades into grass huts is obscene.
 
Nice posts, Rachamim. Is interesting to get a Jewish take on the Christianity stuff. As I mentioned, I know very little about Judaism proper outside of what I know of the OT (yeah, I know that doesn't really apply to Jewish belief - and as a side note: is the actual "Jewish Bible" different from the standard Christian OT? I vaguely recall that it is but not the specifics. Different ordering of books at least, from memory, and quite probably more differences than that) despite having a Jewish stepfather. He was very much of the secular variety though and I'd never have known if it wasn't for having a cupboard full of matzos tbh.
 
i shall read them properly later.

Dear Jesus/God/Holy Spirit,

You talk about separating the sheep from the goats or the goats from the sheep.

The sheep being followers, the goats being determined climbers.

I am confused :?
 
Vurtual Post #409

3) 'Pontius Pilate didn't kill Jesus. The Jews did.':

1) 'Liberation Theology within Catholicism.': More degeneracy from Vatican II. It is used as a rationale in mass murder after mass murder and is disgusting. Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Uruguay, Argentina, Colombia...and of course the Philippines. The idea that you are exerting the will of Jesus when you toss grenades into grass huts is obscene.

Thanks for the informative posts, and for correcting me - Can i ask what your sources are for it (not questionning it at all - just interested in catching up on this stuff some time)

My knowledge of this subject is hazily remembered from various books over the last couple of decades, some less rigourous than others (and usually read stoned) - also, tricky trying to cast back through them and leave out stuff from books i later came to mistrust (like michael baigent's)). i had an idea that nag hammadi was only a small part of the picture, but couldn't remember other sources off the top of me head (give us some leads...). And thanks for clarification on the gnostic stuff - yeah i remember some of that wacky stuff (didn't know that was the way islam saw it though). On pontius pilate, i was (probably simplistically) suggesting the romans or greeks shoved that bit in there or something, not that the jews did it (which seems to be an anti-semitic trope used by some christians).

Care to give some details of what you mean about liberation theology, cos that sounds different to what i've read - my knowledge of it comes tangentially from political writing (chomsky, pilger, blum, curtis etc) - it seemed to me, in south/central america, most mass murdering going on was by conservative government forces or linked paramilitaries, under the umbrella of the cia - and this usually against any social reformers (including LT-linked priests like oscar romero) if not just the indigenous people. I also know LT through jean-bertrand aristide who sounds like a popular leader who would have done good if allowed by usa (eg like salvador allende tried to or chavez has). I'll have to remind myself about the phillippines (sure blum covers it)

And (yet again) my knowledge of vatican II is brief, but as very much a non-catholic (or anything else) it seemed like a step in the right direction to me (ie away from vanilla catholicism) - how was it degenerate in particular compared to eg vatican I?

//edit - oh just noticed you posting from the phillipines (doh) - so apologies for not catching up on that first; and keen to hear your own angle - going to catch up now...

///edit 2 - after a brief catch up i can see what you mean somewhat, although whether you can extrapolate the violence to the wider movement i don't know. Probably into similar territory as whether violent struggle is ever justified in wider political terms - speaking from a left anarchist position, i would feel uncomfortable with the more 'vanguardist' and maoist elements of some 'communists', but don't preclude necessary struggle organised (huh) in anarchist fashion (as in spanish civil war)) - however, i can't really understand how it might seem from a third world peasant-class perspective with such a wide gulf between you and a (often foreign) colonial elite... maoism may be a very appealing way to even the odds for some (and from their point of view, not any more bloodthirsty than how the imperial powers behave in their neck of the woods)

--now i'm going to properly catch up...
 
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Shambles: For sure, very different in many ways but the biggest has to be in meaning. Most know about the entire concept of a virgin birth not being prophecised anywhere in the so called "Old Testament," for example, but there are so many other mistranslations. A synopsis: There are 24 Books divided into 3 major sections, using the English terms, 1) The Law, 2) The Prophets and 3) The Writings.

I) HaTorah aka HaChumash (Ha-Khoo-mahsh), with 5 books

A) B'reshit (Buh-ray-sheet) = Genesis

B) Shemot (Sheh-mot) = Exodus

C) V'yikrah (Vuh-yik-rah) = Leviticus

D) B'midbar (Buh-mid-bar) = Numbers

E) D'varim (Duh-vah-reem) = Deuteronomy

II) Ni'ivim (Neh-eh-veem) = Prophets, with 8 books sub-divided into 3 sections

1) HaRishonim (Hah-ree-shown-eem) = The First Ones

A) Yehoshuah (Yeh-hoe-shoo-uh) = Joshua

B) Shoftim (Show-f-teem) = Judges

C) Shmuel (Shmoo-el) = Samuel (includes both Christian books, Samuel I and II)

D) Melachim (Mel-ah-kheem) = Kings (includes both Christian books, Samuel I and II)

2) HaAchronim (Hah-akh-roe-neem) = The Later Ones (actually "The Later Rulers" but idiomatically as I stated)

A) Yeshayahu (Yeh-shah-yahoo) = Isaiah (includes both Christian books, Isaiah I and II)

B) Yimiyahu (Yimmy-yahoo) = Jeremiah

C) Yechezkel (Yeh-khez-kel) = Ezekiel

3) Shnaim Asar (Snah-yeem Ah-sar) aka Trei Asar (Tray Ah-sar) = The 12 (as in The 12 Minor Prophets, the latter one, "Trei Asar," is the more popular of the two and is Aramaic)

A) Hoshea (Hoe-shay-uh) = Hosea

B) Yoel = Joel

C) Amos = Amos

D) Ovadiah = Obadiah

E) Yonah = Jonah

F) Michah (Mee-khah) = Michah

G) Nachum (Nah-khoom) = Nahum

H) Chavakuk (Khah-vuh-kook) = Habbakuk

I) Tzefaniah (Tzeh-fuh-nee-uh) = Zephaniah

J) Chaggai (Khah-guy) = Haggai

K) Zechariah = Zechariah

L) Malachi = Malachi

III) Ketuvim = Writings, divided into 11 books sub-divided into 3 groups

1) Sifrei Emet (Sif-ray Emet) = Books of Poetry

A) Tehillim (Teh-he-leem) = Psalms

B) Mishlei (Mish-lay) = Proverbs

C) Iyov (Ee-yov) = Job

2) Chamesh HaMegillot (Khah-meesh Hah-meh-gee-low-t) = The 5 Scrolls

A) Shir HaShirim (Sheer Hah-sheer-reem) = The Song of Songs

B) Rut (Root) = Ruth

C) Kinnot (Kee-note) aka Eichah (Eye-khah) = Lamentations

D) Kohelet (Ko-heh-let) = Ecclesiastes

E) Esther = Esther

3) This grouping has no Hebrew name, in English most label it "History"

A) Daniel (Dah-neel) = Daniel (In the Christian canons this book is placed in "Prophecy")

B) Ezra Nechemiah (Ezra Nekh-ah-mya) = Ezra Nehemiah (In the Christian canon these are 2 books)

C) Divrei HaYamim (Dih-vray Hah-yah-meem) = Chronicles (In the Christian canon this is divided into 2 books, I Chronicles and II Chronicles).
 
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Thanks for the specifics - that actually more or less confirms what I thought I knew, Rachamim. Can't even try to pretend to be very familiar with some of 'em though. Not as you likely are anyway. Only real exposure to the "Jewish version" of "OT" stuff is as asides from atheistic Jews trying to compete with ex-Xtains for picking out the holes. Which leaves me in the rather unfortunate position of having to go far easier on Judaism than Xtianity purely cos it's not really the religous culture I'm familiar enough with to really go at it (unlike Xtianity which I am - Raas, Jess, etc ;)). Am mildly-moderately irked at that cos I know damn well I'd "lose" on the detail :!

Not that it's a team game or owt. But given my hatred for religion as concept I do wish I was better with the ins and outs of the minutiae of religions other than the dominant one here :\

Out of interest, are you a practicing Jew or of more secular bent, Rachamim? We've certainly clashed politically on more than one occasion (and that topic shall be left well alone in this thread for obvious reasons - is politics, not religion) but I have often been impressed with your apparent understanding of your theological stuff. Albeit from the standpoint of one that doesn't really know enough to question too firmly...

I loathe and/or respect Judaism as much as any other mythology. But please don't mistake that for any kinda problem with "Jewishness" in cultural terms.
 
it's all so interesting. i now know why i went deep into science rather than deep into religion. i think my love for heroin is more rational than my love for jesus. my love for jesus is rational because i was taught the nice bitas. like him patting small children on the head and all them fun hymns.

yes quaker dom sounds sound. i might not go down too well coz the spirit moves me to say many things at the wrong time.
 
Vurtual: 1) 'Who killed Jesus.': But here is the thing though, according to Christianity it was still the Romans who killed Jesus. Their belief is that the High Priesthood, under Caiphas, perceived Jesus to be a heretic with the inference ultimately being that they felt Jesus would be a threat to the established order and therfore a threat to their lofty positions. After bribing Judas Iscariot they located Jesus in the Garden of Gethesemane and had him arrested by the Temple paramilitary. After a trial in front of the Sanhedrin they condemned him to death and had him brought to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Governor and lobbied to have Jesus executed. Pontius Pilate was reluctant to condemn Jesus but Caiphas et al were insistent, "Let his blood be upon our heads and that of our children," and reluctantly Pilate complied. Crucified by Romans he died on "Calvary." There are a few very major problems, aside from the almost laughable interpolation, "Let his blood be upon our heads..." As I stated earlier, the Sanhedrin decreed death a single time in its last 70 years of existence which includes the period in which Jesus was said to be executed (26 to 36 CE/AD which was the time in which Pilate served in Judaea). The source for "once in 70 years" is manifold but the simplest source would be in the Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) in the Book of Sanhedrin, quote attributed to Rabbi Ezekiel Ben Azaireh. Contrary to the claims of Conspiracy Theorists Jesus isn't even mentioned in the Talmud, unless the Christian Gospels are complete fiction, because the times in which the name Jesus is mentioned ("Jesus" of course is merely the Greek translation of his name which, if he lived, would have been Yeshuan full name Yeshua Bar Yosef, or in less formal terms, Yeshua HaNotzri, Jesus the Nazarite- NOT Nazarene as Christians imagine but I do not want to run off in different tangents here), he is described entirely different than in any known Christian source- and certainly than in the Gospels. The point? If the Sanhedrin had condemned him to death there would be a record of it.

Christians needed a way in which to get their minds around the fact that Jesus was an Observant Jew while living their lives in direct contradiction to the so called "Old Testament." They invented 3 major rationales of which the primary one was that since the Jews condemned him to death and went so far as to convince Pilate by assuming any possible guilt from such an execution, there is no way to rationalise a belief that G-D would want Christians to abide by the laws contained within the Old Testament. The main reason though, why Christianity usually blames Jews is to rationalise Anti-Semitism. One may think that European Anti Semitism is theologically based but in fact we dealt with the same dynamic from Greek and Roman pagans as well as Muslims, so that it is a dynamic usually existing above and beyond a particular theology.

2) 'Liberation Theology.': Simply examine the Vatican's "Instruction on Christ, Freedom and Liberation" issued on May 22nd, 1986. In Chapter V, Article 17, the Vatican not only condones the use of violence it also condones insurrectionism and insurgency. Guess old John Paul II forgot about "Render unto Caesar" and leaving the temporal to man yadda yadda. To quote verbatim, "the Church's Magisterium admits as a last resort to put an end to an obvious and prolonged tyrrany which is gravely damaging the fundamental rights of individuals and the common good." The huge problem with this is that humans are subjective creatures. What you label "tyrrany" may be completely acceptable to me. The Vatican does not define its stance above and beyond eschewing collectivism. It was asinine in unbelievable ways.

3) 'Pundits like Chomsky and their views on Liberation Theology.': Chomsky is a clown. He also glorified the Khmer Rouge and lauded Pol Pot. Even after tonnes of evidence was coming out of Cambodia (then known as "Kampuchea") Chomsky refused to reverse himself. A man that sits eating biscuits in Sheikh Nasrallah's office in the Hezbollah Headquarters compound and discussing Israel's "terrorist activities" isn't going to rate too high when it comes to integrity. My favourite though? Here is a man who has spent the bulk of his adult life railing against the wealthy and their use of tax shelters (in the US). Then it turns out he has created the "Diane Chomsky Irrevocable Trust" with a blue chip legal firm dedicated to Tax Law (the firm is Palmer and Dodge in Boston). Hypocrites and people who self promote themselves into niche careers outside of their academic expertise are suspect from the door anyway. I am not going to ask an Orthopedist for an opinion about my fuel injection system right? Yet everybody listens to a Linguist expound on Political Science.

4) 'Philippines and Liberation Theology.': The country is a great example. The CPP/NPA (Communist Party of the Philippines and its military wing, the New People's Army), along with its above board NDFP (National Democratic Front of the Philippines) were built around Liberation Theology and its adherants. In fact, the biggest constiuency within the NDFP is the "Christians for National Liberation," an organisation rooted almost equally in the Church and the homegrown Protestant church "Church of Christ" (not to be confused with another homegrown Protestant church, Iglesia ni Kristo which translates as...Church of Christ). If you are really curious examine the evolution of the BCC (Basic Christian Community) into the BEC (Basic Ecclesial [sic] Community), and how it has served the CPP/NPA. Also, the Church of Christ's rural outreach and PIME (Pontificium Institutum Missionum Exterarum), a Catholic Order based in Italy. PIME priests are deeply enmeshed with the CPP/NPA. 2 of the 3 PIME priests killed on Mindanao died as a result of their CPP/NPA involvement. In one interesting case the priest was cannibalised but that has nothing to do with the issues you are asking about. The last PIME priest to die was 2011, Father Fausto "Pops" Tentorio, an Italian double tapped between the eyes in Arakan, in Mindanao's North Cotabato Province.

Elsewhere? Anywhere in Latin America, when you find an armed Marxist group it is deeply enmeshed with Liberation Theology. From the Zapatistas in Mexico's Oaxaca State to the ELN and FARC in Colombia to the Tupaceros in Uruguay.

5) 'The degeneracy of Vatican II.': If you ask a Catholic who feels that way they will talk about Latin and Gregorian Chant but neither was even mentioned. In Vatican II. It is the environment that led to these "reforms" that is the real problem. It is the same environment that led the Vatican to issue the Encyclical "Populorum Progressio" (Progess of Peoples but the official English title is "On the Development of Peoples") in 1968. The document outlined the Church's position that economic reform is essential to any discussion regarding societal change. This is the Vatican, with the world's richest bank, spitting on established Capitalism. Typical Liberal blathering, "I love blacks as long as they don't move onto my street." The "Not in my Backyard" mentality. Anyway, that is just an iota of my perspective on it.

6) 'Jean Bertrand Aristide was good.': At the moment he is under prosecutorial inquest in Port au Prince for his terrible abuse of homeless orphans and the residents of one particular slum want him in prison for life for the street gangs he controlled having lynched and decapitated any supporters of the Haitian opposition living there. If he ever was good he lost it by the time he took hold of the reins in Haiti.

Ill get to the rest a bit later...
 
Shambles: I was raised in a very religious environment but at age 16 (1983) I entered the military. Israel at the time was still heavily Socialist and the divide between secular and religious almost led to civil war. There were running battles in the street over the religious Jews trying to push society towards theocracy. In the military religion was reviled. They would beat it out of you. Now there are ultra-orthodox battalions and beards are common. Things have changed so much. By 20 I was an atheist but as time went on I re-gained my faith though in the process I studied other faiths intently. Now I am somewhat Observant.

On politics...The problem is that oftentimes those critical of Israel aren't even aware of engaging in stock Anti Semitism. Oppents of Israel naturally gravitate towards sources and causes that mirror that overall staunch criticism and it isn't easy to discern the difference. For example, the UNHRC has devoted roughly 60% of all nation-specific Resolutions towards lashing out at Israel. No matter one's opinion on the nation only a tool or a fool is going to claim that Israel is the worst Human Rights offender on the planet. In 2006 when Darfur was the site of a vast racial genocide ONLY Israel was targetted by the UNHRC. Both Kofi Annan and his replacement Ban Ki-Moon took the agency to task for this bias. If I am a critic of Israel- and not an Anti Semite- I could easily latch onto the UNHRC campaign without realising that underneath it is a cesspool of Anti Semitism. If one is conscious of this and really endeavours they can engage in true criticism of Israel and if so, I am fine with it.
 
Raas_2012: 1) 'The Gospels were written by the Disciples of Jesus.': Are you using "Disciples" interchangably with "Apostles?" There is a distinct difference. IF you actually do mean "Disciples," do you mean it in the literal sense or as a label for anyone accepting the teachings of Christ? I ask these questions because the absolute earliest any of the 4 canonical Gospels could have been written would have been 71 CE/AD, with the consensus being at least 80 CE/AD (the earliest generally being considered Matthew and in Verse 22 it mentions the destruction of the Temple, an event that transpired in 70 CE/AD). Jesus would have been Crucified in between 33 and 36 CE/AD (36 CE/AD being the last year that Pontius Pilate served as Procurator of Judaea). The point being, nobody who lived during Jesus' lifetime had any direct role in the Gospels.

2) 'Jesus was G-D and therefore it seems as if the authors of the "Old Testament" did not depict G-D accurately.': IF Jesus ever lived he was a religious Jew. What many Christians fail to realise is that all "touchy feely" stuff in the so called "New Testament" is interspersed with Jesus labeling non-Jews as mangy bitches and offering that he came to divide father against son. The teachings attributed to Jesus are almost always Jewish teachings taken out of context by Christians. Put simply, believing in Christianity is like buying a 1,200 page book, opening immediately to page 1,100 and imagining you understand the big picture.

3) 'Mark was an Apostle of Peter.;: The word "Apostle" means "One who goes forth" and refers to those men chosen BY Jesus to go forth and spread his message. Peter cannot have an "Apostle." He CAN have a "Disciple" which denotes a student.

I freely admit i'm not an expert on details of how the canon of the new testament was determined, it's histocracy and apostolic authority. I've always been more interested scripture interpretation.

There clearly has to be some ommission in scripture to make it practical and presentable. It's a big enough book as it is. But I don't think it's decietfully ommitted to misrepresent Jesus.

What many Christians fail to realise is that all "touchy feely" stuff in the so called "New Testament" is interspersed with Jesus labeling non-Jews as mangy bitches and offering that he came to divide father against son.

are you referring to this verse?

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn


“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Love that verse." A mans enemies will be the members of his own household".

It means both good and evil hearted people co-exist in this world, amongst communities and even families. Jesus is here to set them against each other, and born from this are experiences of valiance and nobility.

However the canon was compiled exactly - they certainly do their job of allowing Christians to understand Jesus. They demonstrate both his love of good and hate of evil.
 
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How can you possibly know the gospels allow Christians to "understand Jesus" when you say you don't really know whether they have any hisorical validity, Raas? As a few of us have pointed out now and Rachamim puts rather succinctly:

Rachamim said:
The point being, nobody who lived during Jesus' lifetime had any direct role in the Gospels.

So how do you know anythng supposedly said by Jesus was said by Jesus and not just the personal opinion of people righting decades after his supposed death who never knew him (if anybody ever did)? Seems a bit of a stretch, no?
 
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