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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

EADD Theology Megathread

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^^ Nice post, Virtual. And I'd agree with just about all of it.

On the Atheist vs Agnostic stuff, I tend to be fond of the more modern interpretations of it. Most folk - believers and non-believers alike - are essentially agnostic by definition cos nobody really knows. As such you can be either agnostic atheist or agnostic theist (or gnostic atheist or gnostic theist - although that latter is deeply questionable and the former only has limited possibilities). Interesting footnote, the terms "atheist" was originally used by Romans to refer to Christians (cos they didn't believe in "the gods"). Funny how things turn out innit?

I think it's perfectly legitimate to describe oneself as "atheist" in broad terms. Most gods can easily be disproved. Other versions of gods are so vague and non-specific (Pantheism, Deism, etc) they can never be disproved as such and it all comes down to probabilities. I quite like some of Dawkins stuff but he can be a tit sometimes too. He's far from a hero of mine as far as religion goes. As a biologist he's excellent though.

On the quantum physics-type "spirituality" stuff... I'd say you're on very dodgy ground. Anybody who has seriously looked into that stuff is well aware it in no way suggests anything non-material. There's mucho weirdness, for sure, but none of it comes close to being religious. Leave that for the What the Bleep...? brigade :|
 
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Shambles said:
...The Trinity is a whole other matter. Don't think you can find any Christian living or dead who has much of a clue what that's all about. Utter drivel as a concept. Genuinely incomprehensible. Is what happens when you try to turn a fundamentally polytheistic religion into a monotheistic one without tossing out the polytheism properly.
:\
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I think the trinity was meant by early christians as a paradox like a koan - it was supposed to be 'contemplated' until you saw god - maybe could be seen as a meditational practice. this was the tradition that carried on with eastern orthodox christianity but was taken more literally by the western christians (as mentioned before).

While both to me a bit idiotic (as organised religions) it seems that some bits of christianity have had more sophistication than others at different times (and the western one we inherited came from the theological backwaters...)

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Oh i know i'm on dodgy ground with the physics, but i think that's where it is - not to say non-material, but non causal certainly. quantum particles actually behave in a non-material way from our viewpoint (though granted there's obviously material happening, we just can't measure it).
The actual cosmologies being considered by mainstream physics leave plenty of room for all sorts of wackiness - (and i get my physics more from david deutsch john gribbin or michio kaku than david icke!)
 
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I don't think it was meant as a "koan" for a second. Is just the product of a tossed-together-over-centuries mishmash religion which is what Christianity is. Any ideas of it being more "deep" than that are distinctly ad-hoc, I'd say.

As for some versions of Christianity being "more sophisticated" than others, I'd tend to agree. But ultimately is all just some bloke's opinion based on nothing of importance. Interpretations without substance.
 
Shambles said:
I don't think it was meant as a "koan" for a second. Is just the product of a tossed-together-over-centuries mishmash religion which is what Christianity is. Any ideas of it being more "deep" than that are distinctly ad-hoc, I'd say.

As for some versions of Christianity being "more sophisticated" than others, I'd tend to agree. But ultimately is all just some bloke's opinion based on nothing of importance. Interpretations without substance.
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I got that about the trinity from karen armstrong - she seems a little fluffy in places, but i largely trust her stuff (as much as a no mark can tell). I know it's thought that way in eastern christianity - certainly it could have originated in a more grubby amalgamation (most of them did).

and i agree with your interpretation of interpretations without substance ;)
 
Shambles said:
I'll politely ignore the David Icke comment, PinkP ;)

He's quite hilarious but it's mainly just Theosophy with nobs on.

The Trinity is a whole other matter. Don't think you can find any Christian living or dead who has much of a clue what that's all about. Utter drivel as a concept. Genuinely incomprehensible. Is what happens when you try to turn a fundamentally polytheistic religion into a monotheistic one without tossing out the polytheism properly.

And as for Mary? Date rape deities ftl :\
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shamrock?
 
^ That's entirely your lot's invention and is to blame for every tosspot barman who's ever put one on the top of me pint before :p

Vurtual said:
I got that about the trinity from karen armstrong - she seems a little fluffy in places, but i largely trust her stuff (as much as a no mark can tell). I know it's thought that way in eastern christianity - certainly it could have originated in a more grubby amalgamation (most of them did).

and i agree with your interpretation of interpretations without substance ;)
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I've not read any of her stuff but will take note. Until then though, I'm still a proponent of the mishmash idea as it seems to fit historical fact. Given that the concept of "Yahweh" is in itself an amalgamation it's kinda hard to see how anything added on to that can't be anything other than an extension of that really. You'd have to gloss over the fact that "The Father" is actually "The Fathers" which is pretty hard to do given it isn't. Will try to check out Ms Armstrong's take on it but I suspect it's perhaps a tad too forgiving of actual facts in favour of benefitted doubts ;)
 
No, do check out the 'great transformation' - it isn't overly sympathetic, just not dawkins-esque. And even with sympathy, the stuff about china is worth it.

I love reading about religions' history as a non-religious person - i find it fascinating - her books are just a good yarn about the histories of various religions - no real religious baggage just history (and pretty honest history i think - lots of that about the OT authours is from her (maybe another book than GT i think)).
 
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Well, my fellow atheists have picked this apart better than I could.

raas: I remember you, from way back. You were quite an avid drug user. A lot of people do too many drugs and end up addicted to the bible. Is it possible this happened to you? Cross-addiction at its worst, in my opinion. Do you think you'd have found god because drugs? (Awful comedown, or whatever.) If the answer to that is 'yes', then drugs must be a good thing. I'm told by my Christian friend (who loves his drugs) that there's nothing in the bible to say that you can't get high (perhaps treat thy body as a temple - but 'sacred wine' is going to more harmful than a few Es). Do you still take drugs, raas? If not, then why visit here? Not for one second that I'm inferring that non-users aren't welcome, or yourself. :) It's just that there's not many Christian non-users on here. Why did you return, if this could be considered a mistake in your life?
 
Vurtual said:
I think the trinity was meant by early christians as a paradox like a koan - it was supposed to be 'contemplated' until you saw god - maybe could be seen as a meditational practice. this was the tradition that carried on with eastern orthodox christianity but was taken more literally by the western christians (as mentioned before).

While both to me a bit idiotic (as organised religions) it seems that some bits of christianity have had more sophistication than others at different times (and the western one we inherited came from the theological backwaters...)

edit
Oh i know i'm on dodgy ground with the physics, but i think that's where it is - not to say non-material, but non causal certainly. quantum particles actually behave in a non-material way from our viewpoint (though granted there's obviously material happening, we just can't measure it).
The actual cosmologies being considered by mainstream physics leave plenty of room for all sorts of wackiness - (and i get my physics more from david deutsch john gribbin or michio kaku than david icke!)
Click to expand...

Virtual.. superb post! God is immanent in this moment with us always. The tragedy of eden is that we lost consciousness of Him here and now. He said he would never leave us nor forsake us. He never has.We left Him. He is also Transcendent.. totally other and outside the universe. Possibly like the Wizard of oz pulling on this lever and that lever to make the world go round. :D

My place isn't in a church right now... but it has been and I learnt a lot...there were things I liked about it and things I didnt.
 
JessHalo said:
He said he would never leave us nor forsake us. He never has.We left Him.
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I didn't leave anybody. If I did they didn't make their presence clear enough to ever be noticed.

Is one of the greatest tragedies religion has caused us as a species. Millennia of waiting, hoping and relying on a non-thing to do... whatever the particular sect wants it to do. The sooner people realise and accept that non-things can't do shit by definition the sooner we can make some progress in making this world a better place <3
 
well my expierence was this
year 2000 i lost a promising job in finance i was only 21. i ended up homeless and on the streets of the capital city of my country not a nice place to be especially for a nice non streetwise individual like my good self.there was no mercy on the streets sounds like a cliche but its a fact esp no mercy for a chap like me who had the wrong accent wrong clothes etc they thought i was posh lol well i ask you.
anyway i expierenced severe emotional pain distress lonelyness despair addiction and cutoff from all friends and family. by very definition hell on earth. considering the upbringing i had the cosy life and cushy jobs the fall from grace was painful as fuck.
but at two crucial moments during a long period of suffering two different people prevented my suicide and stopped me just before i climbed up onto bridge ti do it a total stranger too i had no one to turn too.he say what i was at and told me after his wife died he thought of doing it but didnt and told me to keep the faith.
well that was the year 2000 i went through prison for a short while after that and my faith and prayers were answered and against all the odds my family gave me one LAST chance and let me move home again went totally against the grain but i was saved.
i have total faith
 
So... human beings saved you from killing yourself and gave you another chance at life? And you credit a mythical being instead. Nice.

Believe me I sympathise with your situation and experiences. But I have to be honest. It's stuff like that that really makes me despair. People were there when you needed them. Human people. Strangers and family. No gods. People. You mentioned them yourself. I just wish you had more respect for your own species cos some of them did you proud when you needed them most <3
 
i do have respect for them i love them brother :-)

the only way you will be convinced is if like in the exorcist 3 evil forces reveal themselves too you and solve ur unbelief.

in the mean time i post this song to help you i think its fitting

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=SKmHaLnnOmY&desktop_uri=/watch?v=SKmHaLnnOmY

shambles that thump on your door was el diablo calling hes pissed off you deny his prescence.
i wouldnt look out any windows for a bit he is still out there :-[
FUUUUUUCK
 
Bwahahahahaha! Talk about evil forces - 2 Unlimited?!? :D

I'm not after convincing. Anything would do. Anything that isn't just standard day-to-day life stuff. If there is some transcendent force out there than transcend summat once in a while. It's not so much to ask. Used to happen all the time "back in the day" apparently. What I see in your story is life taking a nasty turn (happens to the best and the worst of us) and then taking an upswing due to humans being humane (clue is in the word "humane" ;)). Where's the god bit of it?

I'm not meaning to be a meany... but I just don't get why that would make you believe in any given deity let alone the god of the Bible. Or some version of one or more versions of it anyway.
 
i know ur not being a meanie.
i guess i didnt mention the part about me getting out of prison that morning and going into a city centre church and on my knees crying praying for help a sign anything this was the end of the line territory shambles and even though i didnt deserve it or ever expect it i got a 2nd chance a lifeline.i say god works through people he cant appear in person to everybody now can he. those people who helped me had faith in him.if they were as cruel and as evil as some of the people i encountered in prison and on the streets i would be dead 13 years hy now
 
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within those sects there are probably souls with different perceptions of GOd. THey have more gratitude and love for what is now.. for what they see. Get me?Perhaps there are some who are worried about an operation or a family member and they have gathered to worship but they are not with God.
Some maybe bitter, their thoughts churning over the past.. etc etc. Its beautiful to come into Gods presence.. simple sham but so bloody hard lol... because you have to let stuff go to come near to bright true consciousness.. and leave behind bitterness, sin, hate, suspicion, cynicism.. People start to love and it grows.. Gods church has been making progress in making the world a better place anyway just in my local community theres a contact center, a homeless shelter, a group that re house people and help to get stuff for their new homes.. God theres the Red Cross, Education, Abolition of slavery...( lets not go there )

so yeah.
 
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^ Yeah. Let's not go there. The "good deeds" of the church? Give me a break. The cunts have a hell of a lot to be making up for given the misery they've caused millions for millennia :|

Acieed: You don't have to be a believer to care for your fellow man. There are evil muthafuckas who believe and who don't. And there are people who genuinely care for others on both sides too. Doesn't strike me as particularly relevant whether the people who were good to you were believers or not really.

Also, you seem to particularly emphasise the fact that your family giving you another chance is somehow an extremely unlikely event - perhaps even bordering on miraculous - yet this can only be your assessment of how they would react as you imagined it at what was clearly an extremely low ebb for you. You'd almost certainly be wildly overestimating the unlikeliness of being given the help you needed cos you were surely depressed as fuck (I certainly would be). The world looks far worse than it really is at such times, and people notice when somebody really is at the end of their tether and tend to step in where they may not have done otherwise.

As for prayer, meh. Been plenty studies on prayer and it has zero effect ever. Even when Christian groups do the study and want it to. In fact, somewhat bizarrely, prayer actually made the situation slightly worse when people knew they were being prayed for (in a recent(ish) study by Harvard Divininty School on prayer for intensive care patients). People who were prayed for and knew they were being prayed for were more likely to die or have permanent problems than those in the other groups who either weren't prayed for or were and didn't know it. This doesn't immediately make much sense but perhaps does when you consider the possibility that people give up just a lil bit of their determination and will to survive when they put their faith in something that does not exist to help them when they should be helping themselves and relying on people not myths.

All that aside, is always hard to argue with personal experiences. Much as I'd love for you to open your eyes and see the world for what it is in all its glory and horror I know that ain't gonna happen and it almost seems churlish to dispute your interpretation of your own experiences. Suffice to say such tales do nothing but reconfirm to me that it's people that help people. Just people.
 
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