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How could cannabis cause psychosis if it's not a stimulant?

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Mootoo

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Stimulants are known to mimic psychosis clearly, and it can be experienced by anyone. How, then, could the claim that cannabis does the same thing hold true if its pharmacodynamics are vastly different?
 
Does it certainly increase it? I thought cannabinoid receptors were the only thing affected.
 
IME/ Imo cannabis triggered a psychotic break in me when i was a naive 19 year old. (I am now 41 so have plenty of time behind me to be able to see it all clearly now). I had been caining the stuff far too hard every single day for months. I started to gradually become more and more paranoid. I was not aware that it was the drug that was causing it, as i say i was naive, the only good thing to have come out of that horrendous breakdown was to be aware that its only the drugs twisting my thoughts, and they are not real)...

Anyway, what happened to me is that my thoughts became more and more deranged/out of touch with reality. I was trying to self analyse myself, and was going way too deep into my own head all the time. Eventually on one night i felt/imagined/envisioned something in my mind rip apart. That was the moment, i knew id gone fuckin mad. (I know that if you atleast have enough insight to realise that, then the ilness is less severe than in someone who doesnt have any self awareness that they have a problem) Then i started hearing voices, and i thought i was telepathic all that shit, i couldnt bare to be anywhere people could see me, as i felt extremely uncomfortable if anyone so much as looked at me ....My mind was constantly racing out of control and i was psycho....When i realised i had the symptoms of schizophrenia (a friend suggested it to me) i sat down and spent whole days reading books about it, I was ego maniacal to the point of thinking "I am going to find the cure for schizophrenia" and i switched my university course from computing to psychology.

i was very deeply fucked up for a few years after that. I never went to the docs or a counsellor for help, believing it would damage my chance of a succesful career, having that shit on my record. If only i had gone, the docs could have given me something to chill me mind out, and i neednt have suffered those years of fucked up ness, i could have enjoyed myself and got laid left right and centre. I was an attractive lad in those days, and got a lot of female attention, but i was always far too fucked up, and because of that was lacking any self confidence and feeling too insecure to take advantage of any 'opportunities'

Man how i regret it now, all those gorgeous 18 yr olds i could have shagged. The only way id get them now is by paying for it ! :(
 
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Mootoo said:
Does it certainly increase it? I thought cannabinoid receptors were the only thing affected.
Click to expand...

The activation of the cannabinoid receptors releases dopamine indirectly, similar to how the mu-opioid receptors release dopamine indirectly.
 
^ by that logic we'd have opioid psychosis as well.

It's really not that simple. To get a better understanding of the endocannabinoid system's interaction with dopaminergic activity and psychosis, I recommend reading Leweke.

Here is a quasi-related excerpt-

We have previously shown that levels of the endocannabinoid anandamide in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in antipsychotic-naive patients with schizophrenia[1–3] are both markedly elevated and negatively correlated with psychotic symptoms. A model of dopamine/endocannabinoid interaction in acute schizophrenia was proposed where (over-)activation of dopamine D2 receptors is associated with an increased release of anandamide counter-balancing dopamine-mediated psychotic symptoms by strengthening an endogenous feedback loop. This model suggests an adaptation of endocannabinoidergic function over a long period to a slow, gradual increase in dopaminergic neurotransmission.[4] We investigated whether changes in the endocannabinoid system are already noticeable in initial prodromal states of psychosis and test the hypothesis that an elevation of anandamide in CSF is apparent in this early stage of the disease.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/4/371.full


Leweke has also found that the phytocannabinoid cannabidiol (CBD), while it doesn't agonize CB receptors, does inhibit the degradation of anandamide leading to another finding that patients with higher CSF levels of anandamide have reduced psychotic symptoms showing potential utility of a drug that inhibits degradation of a natural cannabinoid in treating psychosis.

The 'dopamine hypothesis' for schizophrenia fails to comprehensively explain the condition and many in the field feel schizophrenia may be better understood via a 'endocannabinoid hypothesis' - either way, the two systems are complexly and inextricably linked, play a role in schizophrenia and excessive cannabinoid consumption has the potential to produce psychosis mimicking schizophrenia.
 
Well, weed is also considered a psychedelic, and psychedelics are known to aggravate and even unveil mental disorders such as schizophrenia. And I've heard cases of opiate WITHDRAWAL causing psychosis in susceptible people.

But, a good sativa weed feels very similar to a stimulant to me. Helps me focus and keeps me motivated almost as good as stimulants do. Opiates just make me want to sit there and bathe in the euphoria, so it's possible it depends on what part of the brain DA is released in.
 
Cannabis makes me psychotic. You would have to have a family history of mental disorderds to really know your at risk. > i found out the hard way. smoking meth everyday and it thru me into a horror episode. Weed can cause M.I. I'm proof of that.
 
sonicwhite said:
Cannabis makes me psychotic. You would have to have a family history of mental disorderds to really know your at risk. > i found out the hard way. smoking meth everyday and it thru me into a horror episode. Weed can cause M.I. I'm proof of that.
Click to expand...

It has caused this phenomenon in myself as well.

JackiesBabyy said:
Well, weed is also considered a psychedelic, and psychedelics are known to aggravate and even unveil mental disorders such as schizophrenia. And I've heard cases of opiate WITHDRAWAL causing psychosis in susceptible people.

But, a good sativa weed feels very similar to a stimulant to me. Helps me focus and keeps me motivated almost as good as stimulants do. Opiates just make me want to sit there and bathe in the euphoria, so it's possible it depends on what part of the brain DA is released in.
Click to expand...

Psychedelics are technically supposed to be mediated through serotonin release, usually at 5-HT2a. And opiates can be stimulating as well, particualrly hydrocodone and oxycodone, and on the "come-up".

Cane2theLeft said:
^ by that logic we'd have opioid psychosis as well.

It's really not that simple. To get a better understanding of the endocannabinoid system's interaction with dopaminergic activity and psychosis, I recommend reading Leweke.

Here is a quasi-related excerpt-

We have previously shown that levels of the endocannabinoid anandamide in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in antipsychotic-naive patients with schizophrenia[1–3] are both markedly elevated and negatively correlated with psychotic symptoms. A model of dopamine/endocannabinoid interaction in acute schizophrenia was proposed where (over-)activation of dopamine D2 receptors is associated with an increased release of anandamide counter-balancing dopamine-mediated psychotic symptoms by strengthening an endogenous feedback loop. This model suggests an adaptation of endocannabinoidergic function over a long period to a slow, gradual increase in dopaminergic neurotransmission.[4] We investigated whether changes in the endocannabinoid system are already noticeable in initial prodromal states of psychosis and test the hypothesis that an elevation of anandamide in CSF is apparent in this early stage of the disease.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/4/371.full


Leweke has also found that the phytocannabinoid cannabidiol (CBD), while it doesn't agonize CB receptors, does inhibit the degradation of anandamide leading to another finding that patients with higher CSF levels of anandamide have reduced psychotic symptoms showing potential utility of a drug that inhibits degradation of a natural cannabinoid in treating psychosis.

The 'dopamine hypothesis' for schizophrenia fails to comprehensively explain the condition and many in the field feel schizophrenia may be better understood via a 'endocannabinoid hypothesis' - either way, the two systems are complexly and inextricably linked, play a role in schizophrenia and excessive cannabinoid consumption has the potential to produce psychosis mimicking schizophrenia.
Click to expand...

Awesome info; thanks.

Any drug which releases dopamine has the potential to cause psychotic symptoms. Its been noted that many bipolar patients have their mania triggered by opiates, the brain of a bipolar person being similar to that of a schizophrenic.
 
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^A good point about opioids triggering mania in bipolar patients.

Another way of looking at this is caffeine, which is a stimulant but not a "classic" one in the amphetamine-class sense of "classic stimulants". Caffeine can cause mania in bipolar patients as well. I know a few people who are bipolar and smoking cannabis generally sends them right into mania. I don't want to know what taking amphetamines or psychedelics would do to them.

Everybody is different, and, as Cane said, its as simple as "a drug that releases dopamine will cause psychosis". There are many different receptor systems involved here.
 
Thanks Can and NT! great info as always.

And as always it greatly depends on the persons body chemistry. Some people are more susecptiable to dopamine induced phycosis, I on the other hand seem incredibly tolerant to it. I am studying ADHD and what happens or doesnt happen in the brain of people like myself who have long suffered from symptoms of inattention. Check it out:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070806164505.htm

Heres an interesting snippit:

"In individuals with ADHD, methylphenidate caused less of a decrease in the amount of [11C]raclopride that bound to dopamine receptors in areas of the brain associated with attention than it did in those without ADHD. Since levels of methylphenidate in the blood were the same in both groups, this suggests that those with ADHD released less dopamine in response to the drug than controls. This blunted response was associated with symptoms of inattention. Exploratory analyses also found evidence of reduced [11C]raclopride binding in the hippocampus and amygdala in those with ADHD. These areas of the brain are part of the limbic system, involved in emotional responses as well as consolidating and retrieving memories."

That being said in theory those with ADHD naturally release less dopamine...and in the end could be less likely to get phycosis. It takes more of it and longer exposure. I can speak as someone who has felt it personally, my mind almost always feels depressed(not in the sad way, but in the not stimulated way) and the this could be why I am naturally tolerant to pot as well.
 
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^Very nice reference neko :)

I've always wondered why cannabis does different things to different people. I've also always thought that amphetamine+cannabis would be the perfect ADHD drug :)

Not to get off topic here or anything, however. In regards to the OP (and some of the replies) yes, cannabis can act like a psychedelic. Another very important factor to consider here is there are nearly countless different strains of cannabis out there as well as many other ways of administering THC (and other cannabinoids) that don't involve smoking anything at all. Different strains of cannabis will have differing percentages of THC and CBD as well as differing ratios of those two main cannabinoids.

There is still research going on as to how different cannabinoids interact with each other as far as producing cannabis' psychoactive effects as well as its medical effects. I can say from personal experience that strains with more THC in them feel much more like a true "psychedelic" when compared to strains that have more CBD in them. Just another factor to consider, and remember that research into this is still very much in progress.
 
This thread is pretty awesome.... I don't have anything meaningful to contribute, I just wanted to say that.
 
I agree jibult. This turned into a great thread.

I feel like i cant ever stress enough that you must always consider that everyone's brain literally works differently. If you hot the bong every time i said somehting like that around here youd be pretty stoned.
 
As someone with severe ADHD, I say a good sativa strain would be a great ADHD treatment if the high lasted 5x longer. And I just can't get eating it to work for me. I've tried brownies, firecrackers (made by me and others) and they never did shit.
 
I too have severe ADHD, the inattentive side to be exact. Not the hyper. I too find it hard to get many effects from edibles. I believe you need to make sure you have good edibles, but even then its so subtle for me. I'd rather just smoke it.
 
Neko - The most common sight at treatment centers in my area when teens would get forced into early intervention classes or treatment for pot use were individuals who had ADHD who found that marijuana managed their symptoms more effectively and with fewer side effects (and most sold their amp scripts to buy their bags ;)).
 
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lolol....interesting. I think pot managed my ADHD for a very long time. i just recently got a script for adderall, but have been self medicating with weed since i was 13. In many cases i do feel like pot helps my inattentiveness...I would say its not until i got to the graduate level and studying to teach that i felt the need to finally have a script around. I cant get stoned all day as a teacher. haha
 
^ Well, you can, but you can't. Weed edibles! ;)

Just make your own, it's, super easy: mix hash oil with melted chocolate, and form the chocolate in to squares. They're very potent, and even more important, they're consistent, which is important when you're using them for medication and can't get too stoned. They're basically homemade Hubby's Bars...

I like to eat 1/4 of a single piece of a Hubbys Bar to focus on reading textbooks for school, any more gets me noticeably stoned.
 
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