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Is intravenous meth use less dangerous because it bypasses first pass metabolism?

SafeTrouble

Greenlighter
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
34
(Less dangerous than smoking it/oral to be exact.)

I've noticed this in some of the company I keep - they will inject a certain quantity of meth and have a blast. Or they will smoke and at first they feel great. Then as the night goes on, everyone starts getting irritable and the energy rush wears off. Then people start getting heart palpitations and a "funny" feeling in the left and right side of their stomach. Some people get profuse diarrhea from simply smoking meth.

All of these "side effects" seem to be less common when the ROA is intravenous injection. Is this because it's not nearly as damaging to the liver and since meth is water-soluble, the kidneys can filter it relatively well out of the blood as long as the person stays hydrated?
 
lol, no. IV is not safer than oral.

Risk of acute overdose exists in both. Why do you assume IV is less safe, when administered properly? Physical negative symptoms (anxiety, heart rate, intestinal wobbly wobbles) are more common with smoking it and eating it.
 
I've noticed this in some of the company I keep - they will inject a certain quantity of meth and have a blast. Or they will smoke and at first they feel great. Then as the night goes on, everyone starts getting irritable and the energy rush wears off. Then people start getting heart palpitations and a "funny" feeling in the left and right side of their stomach. Some people get profuse diarrhea from simply smoking meth.

Smoking meth is described by some as more fiendish than than injecting it - the onset is slightly quicker, and the comedown possibly harsher. It's also much easier to redose by smoking than injecting, so chances are it'll happen more often. Furthermore, the injection drug users may be more aware of the exact doses they're taking than the smokers.

All of these "side effects" seem to be less common when the ROA is intravenous injection. Is this because it's not nearly as damaging to the liver and since meth is water-soluble, the kidneys can filter it relatively well out of the blood as long as the person stays hydrated?

No. Rectal, intranasal, and inhaled methamphetamine all bypass first-pass metabolism. Your liver still gets to metabolize it in the end, just not before it reaches your brain - all except orally.
As far as I know, methamphetamine is mostly neurotoxic, due to massive cascading dopamine release, which in excess is damaging to dopaminergic neurons. I've read a study where intravenous use of amphetamines has led to liver damage and failure, but mostly due to intravenous use (of MDMA, still an amphetamine) - hepatoxicity isn't the biggest concern, though.

(Less dangerous than smoking it/oral to be exact.)

Injecting it has all the familiar risks, but assuming you're doing it the Harm Reduction way with fresh, clean needles, sterile equipment, you still have to worry about impurities in the meth, pulmonary embolisms, and the damage of injecting a very caustic substance into your arteries. Also you can't undo your last dose if you realized you shot too much. You can puke out what you've eaten.
Smoking is pretty bad too, but that's mostly due to the intensity and addictiveness of the drug when taken by that ROA.
Eating and insufflating can have bad effects in the long term - again, it's caustic, so it's not gonna go your innads much good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_injection


All that said, a few of my friends that aren't complete junkies always inject their stimulants and knowing their sources are good, their harm reduction standards impeccable and their technique better than any nurse I've seen, I trust them to control their amphetamine use more than any others I know. But they know their dose and weigh out every single shot carefully. And to be fair, with the increased BA of and IV shot, to take a comparable amount intranasally would be absolute hell on your nasal cavities, probably worse if done on a weekly basis.
 
I have never heard of any drug being safer when taken in a ROA that bypasses first pass metabolism compared to the ROAs that don't.

SafeTrouble, is this something that you are just wondering, or have you read something that makes you think that first pass metabolism has more dangers than not going through first pass metabolism?
 
It's is by far more addicting this way due to the rush and bears higher risks of overdosing, there's always a chance of missing a vein or getting a shitty product. With oral use if something is fishy you can at least drink a lot of water and purge. At least some help. Once you pushed that plunger there's no way back. It's no way safer than other methods.
 
It's is by far more addicting this way due to the rush and bears higher risks of overdosing, there's always a chance of missing a vein or getting a shitty product. With oral use if something is fishy you can at least drink a lot of water and purge. At least some help. Once you pushed that plunger there's no way back. It's no way safer than other methods.

The risks of overdosing, however, are pretty equal with injection and smoking - smoked hit is gone, nothing to get it back out, and the BA is in the 90% range.
 
Smoking meth is described by some as more fiendish than than injecting it - the onset is slightly quicker, and the comedown possibly harsher. It's also much easier to redose by smoking than injecting, so chances are it'll happen more often. Furthermore, the injection drug users may be more aware of the exact doses they're taking than the smokers.



No. Rectal, intranasal, and inhaled methamphetamine all bypass first-pass metabolism. Your liver still gets to metabolize it in the end, just not before it reaches your brain - all except orally.
As far as I know, methamphetamine is mostly neurotoxic, due to massive cascading dopamine release, which in excess is damaging to dopaminergic neurons. I've read a study where intravenous use of amphetamines has led to liver damage and failure, but mostly due to intravenous use (of MDMA, still an amphetamine) - hepatoxicity isn't the biggest concern, though.



Injecting it has all the familiar risks, but assuming you're doing it the Harm Reduction way with fresh, clean needles, sterile equipment, you still have to worry about impurities in the meth, pulmonary embolisms, and the damage of injecting a very caustic substance into your arteries. Also you can't undo your last dose if you realized you shot too much. You can puke out what you've eaten.
Smoking is pretty bad too, but that's mostly due to the intensity and addictiveness of the drug when taken by that ROA.
Eating and insufflating can have bad effects in the long term - again, it's caustic, so it's not gonna go your innads much good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_injection


All that said, a few of my friends that aren't complete junkies always inject their stimulants and knowing their sources are good, their harm reduction standards impeccable and their technique better than any nurse I've seen, I trust them to control their amphetamine use more than any others I know. But they know their dose and weigh out every single shot carefully. And to be fair, with the increased BA of and IV shot, to take a comparable amount intranasally would be absolute hell on your nasal cavities, probably worse if done on a weekly basis.

We're operating under a hypothetical assumption/control that everything is done "properly" in a completely healthy 5"10 individual.


The lungs are a bit of a wildcard and unique in this FPM pathway. The lungs are the 3rd major detoxing organ besides the liver and kidneys. Rectal administration is only capable of partially bypassing FPM.

If you have ANY digestive disorder/issues, skin disorder/issues, you have liver damage and the liver is congested from "toxins" coming from the environment and the body itself. You're taking in too many things from the environment and food that the liver is unable to process properly. Adding in drugs which take detoxification priority in the body such as alcohol, ketones (not exactly a poison, but the liver treats ketones uniquely) or all synthetic medications is adding stress to an already overloaded liver. Thus, liver damage accumulates.

Realistically speaking, MOST people nowadays have varying degrees of liver damage. That includes seemingly healthy teenagers who consume junk food on a regular basis. Any ROA which stresses the liver is the MOST DANGEROUS and taxing on the human body.

If you have a bum liver (it's just safe to assume at this point that we all have a bum liver) your body is also not degrading byproducts of its own metabolism properly either - namely neurotransmitters. When we take something dopaminergic, that's adding even more fuel to the fire. I can't imagine science has gotten this far yet as to study the autophagic behavior of less-than-greatly-functioning organs on its own metabolic byproducts. We just know that stuff gets recycled or it doesn't. And when it doesn't, well, we haven't quite reached that point yet.

Why does any of this FPM/in vivo detoxification matter? If the liver is unable to deal with any of the above, the lungs take on the responsibility of what the liver was unable to detoxify. The issue with this is simple: the lungs aren't meant to take on such a role and thus lung damage inevitably occurs unless the person fixes the underlying issues leading to acute or severe liver damage (remember: you can have varying degrees of NAFLD or cirrhosis.)

What factors into the liver's ability to detoxify? Well, a shitload of stuff ranging from intestinal bacteria to hepatic circulation, to low Vitamin K2 levels to incomplete demethylation. I can't in all good consciousness recommend that if people take substances, to take them in the most volatile way possible.

FPM is a mechanism that's supposed to mitigate the damage from whatever "toxins" we intake. And if that mechanism is broken completely (moderate cirrhosis/moderate NAFLD) or even just functioning slightly below average, you've just opened the door to an array of different metabolic/drug byproducts flooding your body. You can't rely on FPM because if you live in the modern world, you have a bum liver and thus FPM is just wishful thinking.

How do you figure drugs which completely bypass FPM through IV end up back in the liver and undergo the same process as FPM? They don't. They (or their byproducts) enter the liver again because of our closed circulatory system, but the blood doesn't enter the liver through the GI tract, which it would in the case of FPM. Depending on certain factors, I imagine mostly related to diffusion, solubility, and general metabolism, some of these drugs and their byproducts would be present in the arterial portal/arterial blood. This is not how the liver would be traditionally introduced to a drug. IV injection doesn't exactly do the process completely in reverse, but it's somewhat reversed. The process that initiates FPM is the circulation of [insert whatever] into the liver from the GI tract and the venous blood of a few other miscellaneous organs.

I do, however, agree with you that IV drugs and not just meth, tend to have more neurotoxic potential (also worthwhile to note that the BBB is not this impregnable fortress it's made out to be. It's more like a coffee filter and undoubtedly certain compounds can damage the BBB and let in "stuff" that would otherwise be unable to get through in our Uberhealthy test subject.)

In addition, once the drug is in your bloodstream, the kidneys can take on their many functions. One of which is regulating acid-alkaline balance in the body. This, among with other detox pathways in the body, would certainly mitigate some of Methamphetamine HCl caustic effects before it had the chance to become neurotoxic or hepatotoxic.

I am of the persuasion that "proper" IV methamphetamine use will cause less damage in the long-term than smoked methamphetamine. Having read anecdotal evidence, trip reports and through personal contact with my disturbingly-functional-in-everyday-life-but-addicted-to-meth buddies, we've reached some agreement that smoking meth, for one reason or another, just makes people feel "weird" after a while and the pleasure of the drug is diminished, along with the side effects becoming more profound. This unpleasant "weird" can be avoided almost entirely if the ROA goes from smoking -> slamming. After the initial rush of an IV injection and your heart rate drops, it seems to be a much smoother ride from there and a more even comedown.

Just my $0.02. Feel free to poke holes where necessary, just offering a perspective and basic facts about human physiology which are often overlooked completely. Thanks for the input.
 
It's is by far more addicting this way due to the rush and bears higher risks of overdosing, there's always a chance of missing a vein or getting a shitty product. With oral use if something is fishy you can at least drink a lot of water and purge. At least some help. Once you pushed that plunger there's no way back. It's no way safer than other methods.

There's always a chance of setting yourself on fire while lighting the bowl. Or better yet, it could contain some extremely-combustible impurity. There's always a chance you could mix the meth with water in a glass cup, drop the glass cup, have it cut you, get an infection and die from said infection. All of these are possibilities, but we're operating under hypothetical controlled variables here.

Excretion of meth is renal regardless of ROA, so consuming H2O is always going to get the crap out of your body faster. This applies to IV meth and smoking meth, not just oral. Although H2O+MgCl+KCl would be an even better idea than just plain H2O.
 
How do you figure drugs which completely bypass FPM through IV end up back in the liver and undergo the same process as FPM? They don't. They (or their byproducts) enter the liver again because of our closed circulatory system, but the blood doesn't enter the liver through the GI tract, which it would in the case of FPM. Depending on certain factors, I imagine mostly related to diffusion, solubility, and general metabolism, some of these drugs and their byproducts would be present in the arterial portal/arterial blood. This is not how the liver would be traditionally introduced to a drug. IV injection doesn't exactly do the process completely in reverse, but it's somewhat reversed. The process that initiates FPM is the circulation of [insert whatever] into the liver from the GI tract and the venous blood of a few other miscellaneous organs.

They don't undergo the same process as first-pass metabolism. First-pass means that from the moment of ingestion, the drug is metabolized by the liver, as it first passes through the (ordinary) route, from stomach to brain. Normally that first-pass already metabolizes a considerable amount of the drug before it reaches the brain, leading to greatly reduced BA. Then the blood, having attached to sites on the brain and around the body to exert its effects, flows through the body - including the liver. It's just that by skipping first-pass, the brain got all of it, the drug has begun to exert its effects, and the liver begins to immediately metabolize your drugs. It is metabolized hepatically, so your liver still has to deal with all the meth. And besides, your liver is built for this kind of shit - metabolism. Methamphetamine is not remarkably neurotoxic, so it shouldn't be a problem at all.

I do, however, agree with you that IV drugs and not just meth, tend to have more neurotoxic potential (also worthwhile to note that the BBB is not this impregnable fortress it's made out to be. It's more like a coffee filter and undoubtedly certain compounds can damage the BBB and let in "stuff" that would otherwise be unable to get through in our Uberhealthy test subject.)

I don't think the ROA plays any key role in neurotoxicity. Methamphetamine, due to its mode of action - cascading dopamine release - causes damage to dopamine neurons. The excess dopamine breaks down and forms hydrogen peroxide, which is key in its neurotoxicity. This is irrelevant of ROA, oral or I.V. Same goes for BBB-penetration; that is due to the methyl group and increased lipid solubility.
 
Psychonauticunt said:
Smoking meth is described by some as more fiendish than than injecting it - the onset is slightly quicker, and the comedown possibly harsher. It's also much easier to redose by smoking than injecting, so chances are it'll happen more often. Furthermore, the injection drug users may be more aware of the exact doses they're taking than the smokers.
IME IV is describe as quicker, more intense, more addictive, comedown is bad, and they just redose with the needle. Not even a hot rail is close.
The risks of overdosing, however, are pretty equal with injection and smoking - smoked hit is gone, nothing to get it back out, and the BA is in the 90% range.
With IV it hits you all at once. Smoking is a slower process making it easier to titrated the dose, unless you hot rail. With IV you could get some stronger than usual shit and not find out till it's too late. Basically instant shadow people.
 
Iv is bad, end of story.

Drugs are bad, End of story.

But maybe when you rejoin us down here on planet Earth, you'll come up with an answer to my question.

(With the exception of natural psychedelics and the ones that have impossible to reach LD50s.)
 
SafeTrouble (your handle hints at it, really), do you really think practice equals theory? When we say IV is worse than any other ROA, we think in practice. So maybe yes, in theory, injecting a drug may look safer (although I still don't see how), but in practice, with the conditions of injection a drug user has to suffer on a daily basis, IVing a drug is much more dangerous.
 
. Some people get profuse diarrhea from simply smoking meth.

Ha, I found this thread because I was looking for some anecdotal evidence of this (Google wasn't much help). I'd had this side effect a couple times in the past but thought it was just coincidental. Recently though, I have to run to the bathroom after literally every rip or two I take. It's even worse than diarrhea during opiate withdrawal. I assume this has something to do with how the stuff was cooked, since I don't get this side effect every time single time (with different batches, I mean). Anyone know the exact reasoning (or science) behind this?
 
need to crap after use

Ha, I found this thread because I was looking for some anecdotal evidence of this (Google wasn't much help). I'd had this side effect a couple times in the past but thought it was just coincidental. Recently though, I have to run to the bathroom after literally every rip or two I take. It's even worse than diarrhea during opiate withdrawal. I assume this has something to do with how the stuff was cooked, since I don't get this side effect every time single time (with different batches, I mean). Anyone know the exact reasoning (or science) behind this?

I heard the sudden need to go just after initial use but myself have rarely and only very mildly felt the need to go (let alone be able to go). It seems counterintuitive that substance that mimics sympathomimetic activity, nearly identical to that in a naturally occurring in a fight or flight experience, that digestion would be one of the first bodily processes that would be curtailed to divert more resources to muscles and brain functions.

But also, as being fortunate to have been put in a true necessary and sudden fight or flight situation by being mugged. The colloquialism "I was so scared I nearly crapped my pants" or "scared shitlesss," which I assumed where just a saying having in no way originated out of a real response or event. But having a gun pulled on you and fumbling for you wallet and watch (which is surprisingly more difficult to remove in such a situation), legs shaking, and the sudden and severe urge urge to go and the sensation of the inability to not crap your pants.

So I'm thinking the craping sensation is due to the initial sudden sympathomimetic increase and fight or flight response of the initial use but after the rush and blood levels stabilise out the prolonged sympathomimetic stimulation tends to stop the stomach from generally processing and expelling food. As I always seem to suffer constipation or difficulty of using for a couple days in a row.


typed in a manic rush of thought and certainly not proofread
 
I've never thought of this before, but I started IVing with heroin, long after I spent a few years as a speed freak. When I use meth now, I always inject it. I've noticed that a LOT of the negative side effects, especially the negative physical side effects which used to plague my meth use are no longer apparent.

I'm not saying that IVing is better, or causes less side effects. It could be a whole range of factors, but when I read the thread title a little "ding" went off in my head. I think that's one of the lingering bad side effects from a combination of eating/drinking/snorting/smoking and IVing meth.

The healthiest way to consume meth is to not consume it at all.
 
orally is pretty much the safest way to do any drug as long as you test the strength of you drugs by taking a small dose to start
 
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