Bupe suboxone - anyone stayed off for 2+ months and used opiates?

[duke415]

anyway, here's the question-- i've been off sub for just over 2 months. most of the w/ds are gone but still have weird poop patterns and some armpit sweating. doc said those could continue until 6 months. if i get high on hydros just once, will that reset these extended withdrawal symptoms? has anyone gone through this?

as an aside and psa, just want to say that if i could have gone back and done it again, i would never have tried suboxone or bupe... i bought the hype about minimal withdrawals, etc. but i'd rather suffer for a few days than pretty bad withdrawals for six weeks...

 

[nycblueskie]

I was clean for about 3 or 4 months using suboxone. Soon as I stopped using, I relapsed.

 

[hamwaggle]

do you REALLY still feel off and weird after 2 months? I am getting off suboxone as we speak (I wrote a long thread about it you are free to look up) and so far am SHOCKED at how easy it has been. I was on it for 1.5 years, got down to .5-1mg a day and then relapsed. Was put on 4mg a day and was banging dope instead of taking it. I finally started taking it and realized that suboxone is not true sobriety, but I couldn't not shoot dope without out it. My doc decided to detox me off the suboxone and give me a vivitrol shot. Vivitrol was recently approved for opiate addiction and it literally blocks the opiate receptors so even if you shoot up, you feel nothing. My inner addict was totally against this, but my intelligent side knew that this e keep me clean. I am 80 hours without subs (last dose 2mg friday 9 AM) and have slept every night and feel basically normal. Is it too early to start celebrating? lol. Granted my doc did give me librium (a weak benzo), clonidine, gabapentin, and promethazine for naseau. Do you think the meds are masking the withdrawal? Or am I just getting really lucky with an easy detox?

 

[StartedHydro]

I guess I got lucky. I have been using opiates/opioids non stop for over ten years now. The last year and half I have been on Sub starting around 16 mg a day and two weeks ago I quit and I was taking around .25 mg a day at that point. I bought a bunch of lopermide and for a week afterwards coming off Sub I took around 25 to 6 mg a day of lopermide and I ONLY felt the lack of energy, nothing else. No depression, no RLS, no stomach, I slept perfectly every night, no puking, no sweats, no chills... in fact I was at work doing hard physical labor in 100 heat no problems.

I know a lot of people knock lopermide but it has saved my ass from hellish WDs on many occasions. I stopped taking the lope about seven days after my last sub dose and I feel PERFECT.

Sub saved my life and if used correctly(IMO) coming off opiates/opioids can be quite painless. I think the key is getting to as low a dose as possible and then for the few days after your last dose a very very weak opiate/opioid that has a short half life to help out, I used loper.

I can say I feel better OFF of sub then while I was on it.

 

[sveets]

I dont really understand what you are trying to do OP. You were obviously addicted to painkillers so you went on Subs, and now you have been off subs for 2 months and want to take Hyrdo's. But it doesn't seem like you want to start using it again. Apparently you are having PAWS and think you can curb it with more opiates... ? Either go back on painkillers or ride out the w/d symptoms (which honestly can't be that bad after 2 months off subs).

You should have very gradually been taken off subs to the point where there shouldn't even really be w/d unless you were self-medicating the subs and didn't know what you were doing...

 

[duke415]

thanks, everyone. sveets, i didn't self-medicate the subs; i was given some bad information from a doc who probably only signed up to prescribe subs to make $$... "basically, this will be a very minimal w/d, etc." i quickly realized he was ignorant. went to a new doc, who actually helped originally develop subs in the lab. here's the thing: even THAT guy told me that they do not fully understand the w/d and long-term process and damage. i told him about the gastro and armpit issues and he said, well, your brain chem is all screwed and this might occur for a few more months. in terms of what i'm trying to accomplish, i generally want to steer clear of any opes but wanted to try it just once (i know, i know, pretty dumb) but i do NOT want to re-start the full subs w/d, which were really awful.

hamwaggle, admittedly i did not really taper (went from two 8mg/day for 4 mos to one 8mg/day for three weeks, then half for a week). that may have made my experience worse, but i've also read numerous posts here and elsewhere of people having long, terrible sub w/d even after a long, planned taper...

thanks for taking the time to post, guys. one thing i'd say is that anyone on a short-acting ope (h, morphine, most pills) should prob just go through that w/d. i've been through h w/ds many times in the past...i think i'd rather that than the somewhat more mild but still terrible and much longer sub situation.

 

[motiv311]

I stayed off for about 2 years before I did opiates again.... I've never gotten hooked again, and when I use I prefer to use methadone or suboxone., maybe pods, but nothing else. You have to stay OFF opiates to enjoy opiates ; if that makes sense....

 

[hydrobliss]

Bupe has a MASSSIVE halflife.. that is why the WDS are so heave.. same with methadone. Taking a few hydros would not "reset" this WD timeframe but I would still not reccoment it from an addiction standpoint... even though I would probably pop some myself

 

[Swain]

There is simply no way you can use opiates just once after having a habit that warranted opiate replacement therapy. You are dreaming. That is the addict side of you trying to rationalize a "single use". Get real. Do you really think it will be just one time and you won't decide, 'well I guess just this weekend' or 'just this week' or '1 month of use shouldnt make my wtihdrawals too bad' -----> 'Fuck life is so much worse than it was a few months ago, i wish I wouldn't have asked such a silly question and only listened to the responses I wanted to hear.'

Avoiding dependency does not equal avoiding addiction. Sitting around waiting for the weekend, or payday, or the end of the month, or whatever it may be is nearly as bad as sitting in withdrawals. I personally think only a small percentage of people can recreationally use opiates and sustain a habit while avoiding dependency and addictino.

What advice would you give a friend?

 

[dopiate]

Not the dreaded armpit sweats... Are you by chance blinking every so often as well? My vote is to abstain from opiates if one has the affinity to opiate addiction.

 

[murderator]

I've gotten clean a few different ways -

First time, after about 2+ years of using (Starting off with Hydrocodone, moving on up to OxyCodone, orally, and finally Roxis to crush and snort, I was forced by my parents to make a decision about having them in my life, and having their support, or using drugs and being without them.. I decided to get clean, and my mom basically locked me in a room and cold turkey quit -- Yes, it sucked. Yes, for about 1 week, I was in agony. But, that day came when I woke up, and realized.. WHOA! I feel AMAZING. I feel.. new. It was great. I then moved out of state to live with my brother for a month. I then moved back, and relapsed.

Second time I got "clean" -- Was on Subs. I regret it over a year later now.. I wish I had never gotten on Subs, but at the same time.. It helped me stay off other opiates, and I was able to not pawn every nice thing I owned for once. But, it still sucks and I am a slave to the Subs, basically.

Anyhow, I am NOT a Doctor. I am NOT able to tell you definitively yes this is okay, or no it's not. But, after 2+ months of being clean from SUBOXONE, it is definitely out of your system, you are most likely experiencing PAWS, and taking hydrocodone very well may help relieve that a bit.. I don't recommend due to then wanting to use more and more and boom a major relapse on your hands.. but if it seriously was only once or twice (2 days in a row) to help aleviate the PAWS, it could potentially help out, and I personally don't think it would reverse all the Sub reactions and put you through the worst of the actual withdrawals you felt during your abstinence from Suboxone.

Only thing I know for certain, I am going to be involved in my kids life in a very positive way, and I will educate them on things that I did not know about drugs. I was 22 when I first decided to use, and before that I had never even smoked a cig, or touched weed (still dont smoke weed or cigs) but you get my point.. Terrible decision, and it basically ruined my life.

Opiates are no game. Definitely nothing to play with. 100% abstinence is definitely the best method, but for those that are stuck in this opiate hell, here and there a hydro or so may not be worst thing you could do.. But, if you are 2+ months in, clean from SUBS..

I recommend: NOT taking the hydros. NOT taking ANY opiate or drug. Drink plenty of fluids, take vitamin supplements, and exercise daily, and take up a hobby.

Good luck.

 

[sveets]

thanks, everyone. sveets, i didn't self-medicate the subs; i was given some bad information from a doc who probably only signed up to prescribe subs to make $$... "basically, this will be a very minimal w/d, etc." i quickly realized he was ignorant. went to a new doc, who actually helped originally develop subs in the lab. here's the thing: even THAT guy told me that they do not fully understand the w/d and long-term process and damage. i told him about the gastro and armpit issues and he said, well, your brain chem is all screwed and this might occur for a few more months. in terms of what i'm trying to accomplish, i generally want to steer clear of any opes but wanted to try it just once (i know, i know, pretty dumb) but i do NOT want to re-start the full subs w/d, which were really awful.

hamwaggle, admittedly i did not really taper (went from two 8mg/day for 4 mos to one 8mg/day for three weeks, then half for a week). that may have made my experience worse, but i've also read numerous posts here and elsewhere of people having long, terrible sub w/d even after a long, planned taper...

thanks for taking the time to post, guys. one thing i'd say is that anyone on a short-acting ope (h, morphine, most pills) should prob just go through that w/d. i've been through h w/ds many times in the past...i think i'd rather that than the somewhat more mild but still terrible and much longer sub situation.

This is your problem. That is a terrible taper schedule. By the time you are ready to hop to ZERO mg of subs, you should have been on a miniscule ammount for 2 weeks probably. 16mg to 8 mg to 4 mg to 0mg = BAD w/d

Currently, I have gone from 8mg to 6mg to 4mg. Always at least a MONTH on each. I'm guessing my doc will bring me to 2mg then 1mg then .5mg and hopefully, he will go even further down from there (if not, I will do it myself.)

If the w/d are so bad you can't bear it, go back on a small ammount of subs and do a better taper. DONT DONT DONT DONT DONT DONT DONT use real opiates. No one has control once they have been an addict and you will find yourself falling down that hellish spiral again.

GOOD LUCK, I hope you stay clean man. I still love opies, but I hate them at the same time ya know? I've been total opiate clean for over a year and just subs and I feel great. I occasionally use cocaine or other drugs but Opies are the devil.

 

[hamwaggle]

I agree with you that is a terrible taper, however there is research that ~2mg and below is not considered a therapeutic dose and the the withdrawal from 4mg is exactly the same as let's say 1mg. My doctor is very good and I stopped at 4mg a day (2mg 9AM last friday last dose) and I felt virtually no withdrawals like I said with the help of the meds I mentioned. I got a vivitrol shot yesterday and feel great and opiate free. I also regret using the suboxone for so long and if it wasn't for me just saying fuck it let's go for it I would still be on subs. The WD's are NOT bad if you are down to 4mg or below and have been for at least a few months.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

I don't agree with that at all. There are a lot of people on here, me included, who were still really sick after jumping off even at doses lower than 1 mg, let alone 4... It's nice that you had a good experience..but it is not typical.

 

[beengerman]

^^

I don't agree with that at all. There are a lot of people on here, me included, who were still really sick after jumping off even at doses lower than 1 mg, let alone 4... It's nice that you had a good experience..but it is not typical.

Exactly what i was going to say.

 

[DooMMooD]

Also therapeutic doses can range, it is absurd to say "2mg and below doesn't work for anyone"; also consider 2mg BLOOD level, so 4mg sublingual would be the dose that has 'no therapeutic effect'. I have found my sweet spot dosing the past 6 months at 3mg, and it DID have a FANTASTIC therapeutic effect: killed all cravings, leveled me out AND had a blockade effect as well.

Everyones body chemistry is unique, to take rule of thumbs of drugs and indiscriminately universally apply them is foolhardy; a generalized rule is NOT gospel. Like everyone says "Oh well under 8mg doesn't work" for suboxone, or "oh you need X amount of morphine to get high", everyone is different, and can possibly require different dosages/drugs/ROAs.

If every person were to be administered the same exact drug at the exact same dose "because under X amount doesn't work" then the world would be a pretty crazy place lol. The entire reason we have subtle drug variations and dosage guidelines is because they affect people different. Some might have the same effect from the same drug at the same dosage, sure, theres almost 7 billion people alive, BUT thats not to say that variations do not exist, and that those variations can vary widely.

Case in point: you jumped off 4mg suboxone with no problems, whereas others jump off at under 1mg and have had those problems you are happy you avoided.

Edit: I also dont get how in this thread ham is saying how sub w/d aren't that bad, but in his thread saying they were so bad last time they made him relapse. Kinda funny how addict logic can work lol. "SUBS ARE SO HORRIBLE DONT EVER GO ON THEM! THE P.A.W.S. NEARLY KILLED ME" then in this thread "oh i jumped off 4mg- no problemo!" If there was no problem why not stay on it for awhile and THEN jump off 4mg?

 

[hamwaggle]

I relapsed not due to withdrawal from too little suboxone but instead from simply not working a program and wanting to get high again. To me suboxone was never the answer to addiction, and I used many times while on high doses of subs, so although it obviously curbs cravings, your just not sick so the cravings are easier to push away. I'm sorry if I came off as making it seem very easy, but I also think that many people at my clinic (as well as the old me) are so DEATHLY afraid of the sub withdrawal that they would never ever try to get off it. There are plenty of 5+ year sub patients at my clinic and I just think that is too long. Although I did consider myself sober on suboxone, you are still taking an opiate partial agonist DAILY, just like you probably used to do with other opiates. I guess there are some addicts that need it forever, but I do think a good portion of us, with access to things like Vivitrol, who work an active program CAN get off suboxone.

 

[anonymous1419]

There is simply no way you can use opiates just once after having a habit that warranted opiate replacement therapy. You are dreaming. That is the addict side of you trying to rationalize a "single use". Get real. Do you really think it will be just one time and you won't decide, 'well I guess just this weekend' or 'just this week' or '1 month of use shouldnt make my wtihdrawals too bad' -----> 'Fuck life is so much worse than it was a few months ago, i wish I wouldn't have asked such a silly question and only listened to the responses I wanted to hear.'

Avoiding dependency does not equal avoiding addiction. Sitting around waiting for the weekend, or payday, or the end of the month, or whatever it may be is nearly as bad as sitting in withdrawals. I personally think only a small percentage of people can recreationally use opiates and sustain a habit while avoiding dependency and addictino.

What advice would you give a friend?

Been in your position before, OP. A few too many times. What Swain is saying here is 100% accurate...you're seriously deluding yourself if you think you'll just innocently do some hydro "ONE LAST TIME" and be through with opiates forever. Forever, that is, until another opportunity comes around, or you find yourself on a break from school/work with time to kill and money in your pocket, etc.

Good luck...

 

[trocious]

I tapered off suboxone about two months ago. About three weeks ago, I got on Vivitrol which is an extended release combination of naltrexone/naloxone.

I relapsed recently, and it barely did anything. I was sooo pissed that I wasted that money. I'm going to choose to stay on Vivitrol, because I easily could have overdosed during my relapse and I wouldn't be here typing this.

Good luck man! Opiate addiction is hard to beat, but you can do it!!

 

[hamwaggle]

I relapsed recently, and it barely did anything. I was sooo pissed that I wasted that money. I'm going to choose to stay on Vivitrol, because I easily could have overdosed during my relapse and I wouldn't be here typing this.

I'm interested in how long after your shot did you attempt to use, and how much, and which drug did you use, and in which method? Sorry for the interrogation, lol, but I am on Vivitrol and found some research suggesting the blockage effect being significantly lowered after only one week. Let me see if I can find the chart and I will post it.