Bupe Getting off Suboxone?

[Fix8Sed8Hallucin8]

The *simplified* rundown:
Was IV heroin user for a period of time, but I preferred living too much, so I was eventually able to kick the habit with the help of Suboxone + support of my lady. I know there is a plethora of threads on this - although it's funny that I had to sift through a ton of "IV suboxone" threads to find any - but they are all completely unhelpful. It's as if no one who has taken Suboxone long-term has had success getting off of it (and staying off other opiates).
Note: I have nothing against people IV'ing Suboxone, I did it for a time too, to stay off le dope. But for me personally, it always brought me back to le dope. I had to stop shooting everything to get the shit out of my head.
Anyway. I've been on Suboxone regularly for 2 years now. That is excluding time I was on it but still an active user of heroin. But. I had not really understood the implications of getting off of bupe when I first tried to ween off myself. I was on 4 mg twice a day (obviously been weened down with doc, before then), and got myself down to 1 mg twice a day on my own accord. I figured at this point, I should be able to ween off with a short period of mild withdrawal. Queue pun, I was terribly mistaken. I was off of Suboxone for 2 weeks, and in what was essentially the withdrawals equivalent to being off of heroin for 3-5 days. When I saw my doc, I explained my situation, and the dude fucking laughed at me. He went on to say that about 30% of his patients have had tremendous difficulty getting off of the stuff. The guy's a moron, but I gathered it is because they were dealing with PAWS.
Okay, I'm getting too long-winded here, most of the details are irrelevant.

My question is this: HELP!
Okay, that was an exclamatory statement. But seriously. Has anyone here who has dealt with post-acute-withdrawal syndrome - and had the patience to read this post - found a solution? Or even something that helps, so they can still continue on with their daily lives at the most minimal functioning required, until the WDs are gone?
PLEASE! I just want to be free of this addiction. We have a grown man crying here. LOL.
If the answer is inpatient detox, then that is the answer. But I just thought I'd put this here, as this has always been my go-to place for help (shout-out to Captain Heroin, who has helped me more than he can imagine, as he most certainly does not know me). I know that it will be here, if anywhere.

 

[cheetahrunwild]

what mg are you on? are you on any other medications/have access to anything else to ease wd? working?

exercise and activities to increase dopamine and dosing down slow is key. suboxone i believe is way more brutal than subutex . my bf at one point took 2 1/2 strips a day, currently takes anywhere from 4mg to 1/2 mg subutex a day. you have to be careful because you may fee FINE lowering your dose to a lower level for 3 days, but then those withdrawals, like you would get with dope, will start. so on the 3rd day of any dose down/break, if you feel a little at odds, a little medicine won't hurt. i hope you are not on a high dose. pretty sad how easy it is to get 4 strips a day. get it and make it last you 4 months. big pharma, big time. have not seen a single person in a sub clinic actually look well or healthy that are actually taking the high prescribed dose. any advice you need feel free to ask, you have two people here that can give you tips.

 

[porcupina]

Hi,
I've been on bupe for about 8 months now, and I'd say that 2mg a day is still too much to quit from cold turkey. Taper down further, way further. They make them in really low dose pills like 0.4mg, keep cutting down by small amounts because that stuff is way stronger than it feels. I'm down to .5mg/day now, soon to be jumping off (started at 14mg/day!).
I'm sorry your doctor was such a useless dick, this stuff is no fuckin joke, I'm still not clean of it but tapering more is the way to go from my experience and research. Though PAWS might still happen, you've been on it for quite a while. And I don't know if there's anything you can do for that other than ride it out and the usual 'healthy lifestyle' blah. It sucks, they don't tell you how hard it really is to get off this stuff! They act like it's the cure to heroin addiction when it's just a new addiction to add to the shitheap
Good luck to you, luck and strength x

 

[jayyyyy]

I suppose suboxone prevents weak opiods like tramadol, hydrocodone, or kratom from working? if not, you should try taking just enough of some not particularly pleasant opiod to get to sleep/work at the most twice a day, for as long as you want, and then quit after some months. This could provide a short period of mild unpleasantness opposed to a long drawn-out period of unpleasantness.

 

[burn out]

Man, I have read so many stories just like yours. People go on suboxone for maintanance and then claim it is far harder to get off than heroin because the withdrawal goes on and on. So stupid that heroin/morphine cant be prescribed for maintencne.

anyway, i have no personal experience because i am scared to take suboxone longer than 10 days after reading all these stories but heres my ideas. idea 1: taper very slowly to an incredibly low amount like .0000001 mg and then take it every other daym then every thrid day and then stop.

idea 2: go back on heroin for 5 -6 months to get your body undependent on suboxone. then taper off heroin, use some methadone, codeine and kratom at the end. does anyway know of this idea would work? i mean it supposedly works to go from heroin to suboxone to clean so would it also work to go from suboxone back to heroin to get over the suboxone withdrawal and then just have to deal with heroin withdrawal which doesnt last as long?

 

[twato]

Bupe is really strong, even 2mg would be too much for opiate naive people to handle. As mentioned already, you should try and taper down to a tiny amount (like 0,1mg daily), then try stopping completely.

If you find that you still get bad WD, at this level of dosage you could switch to high dose loperamide (try 20-30mg, wait 3 hours, then take more if necessary until you find a level that lets you function, one daily dose is enough, lope lasts a good 24 hours) and taper down from that, reducing your dose by 1-2mg a day, until you can get by with the normally recommended dose (2-4mg). At this point, you shouldn't suffer from any major WD symptoms anymore, if any at all. Exercise works wonders for any symptoms that may still occur, but probably won't be necessary, only very minor suffering should be left.

Kratom is another possibility, but you'll have to dose more often, as it lasts only 8 hours max. Also the taste is just plain awful, the only way I can keep it down is by filling gel caps with it so I don't taste anything, but this process is quite time consuming, as you'll need 6g of good quality kratom per dose at least. It's also way more expensive than generic loperamide, so I'd prefer the lope.

The only thing that'll really help against PAWS is exercise combined with a healthy diet, this will speed up your recovery and is also good for you generally, so it's a double win if you keep at it.

Got to run now, hope this helps a bit!

 

[burn out]

Bupe is really strong, even 2mg would be too much for opiate naive people to handle.

i took 2 mg with very little opiate tolerance and it wasnt too much to handle, but i did get extremely high for 2 days

 

[twato]

i took 2 mg with very little opiate tolerance and it wasnt too much to handle, but i did get extremely high for 2 days

You're right, I should have said most opiate naive people. Also, natural tolerance may vary ime, you seem to have a high one. Sorry for going off topic, I wish I could still catch a buzz from bupe in any dose

 

[DooMMooD]

Short version:

If you have changed almost every single aspect of your previous life then you MIGHT be ready to kick suboxone without any problems or PAWS. Like, near every single damn thing about your previous life.

And I hope you quit for YOURSELF and not your girl bro. Otherwise you are FUCKED when things dont work out. Just being straight with you.

Exercise, eating healthy, doing the right things. Once you've got all that and MORE under your belt you MIGHT be ready. If not, whats the problem staying on the suboxone?

And if you still want to get off the bupe? TAPER TAPER TAPER! Like I"m talking taper down to 0.5mg, preferably lower. I've been at 3mg since Dec, and I'm not going to come off yet. BUT, when I do, i am going to try to go as LOW as I can go. Try to see if you can drop down to like 0.1mg, and THEN 0.1mg EVERY OTHER DAY, and THEN take some lope if you need.

But I'm just starting to get a routine of exercise, healthy living, and my mind has shifted from drugs to normal mode. However, I am not ready to get off because as I said, I've JUST STARTED a routine, I want to have it embedded in my skull (Just like the routine of using opiates was embedded in my brain)

If you already have these routines and lifestyles established, the PAWS and sub withdrawals aren't really much at all, because your mind will be off of them. Dont stock up on other drugs. Dont start doing benzos. Quit the lifestyle, start a new one, and it will be a breeze. Everyone gives it a bad rep b/c people report bad w/d, but there are a TON of people who have written about how they jumped off subs with NO PROBLEMS/WITHDRAWALS AT ALL when they did it the right way. But we as addicts love to read about how hard something is so we have an excuse not to do it. Do it the right way.

 

[Opanaking]

You got to go through a lot of withdrawals with suboxone, it really sucks comming off of it. It's a really strong and drawn out withdrawal. Basically you just need to accept the fact that your going to feel like shit for 3 weeks. After the main withdrawal is over you'll just have to keep your self busy and try to ignore the paws, excercise, eat healthy, ect. Once you've been off it for a few months you'll be happy you toughed it out, you'll feel a lot better. If the withdrawal is to long you can always try a shorter acting opiate for a week or so. That might shorten the withdrawal.

Stock up on a lot of benzos and clondine and you can get through it just fine. Grow some thick skin. Just make sure your ready to quit and put in the effort.

 

[sneakdiss]

I used suboxone for 4 years and tapered down to .5 mg's a day during a very long period of time. I was on .5 mg for at least a year I'd say. I'm 3 months clean off of it and I just now feel like my withdrawal symptoms are starting to be at a point where they aren't noticeable unless I dwell on it.

Honestly, I took low doses of hydrocodone to get me through the bad days. Tramadol will help too.

 

[Alex1078]

Why is it easier to get off subutex than suboxone. I know the obvious point would be it contains naltrexone, but i never heard any thing about that being addictive. My doc told me the average time your on suboxone is a major factor. He said a lot of long time suboxone users have a mental beleif that suboxone is all that keeping them off their opiate of choice. The longer your on suboxone the harder the withdrawals, just postulating. I am on a 6 month taper from a year of methadone maintenance. The one key for me is exercise. I hit the cross trainer hard for at least an hour and that crappy feeling disappears.

 

[K88ABY]

Exercise is probably the best way to get over 'that crappy feeling' - it's just getting motivated to do it. Personally I am lucky, I have a horse who needs me to ride him every day-get involved with something physical that you enjoy.

 

[dopiate]

Short version:

If you have changed almost every single aspect of your previous life then you MIGHT be ready to kick suboxone without any problems or PAWS. Like, near every single damn thing about your previous life.

And I hope you quit for YOURSELF and not your girl bro. Otherwise you are FUCKED when things dont work out. Just being straight with you.

Exercise, eating healthy, doing the right things. Once you've got all that and MORE under your belt you MIGHT be ready. If not, whats the problem staying on the suboxone?

And if you still want to get off the bupe? TAPER TAPER TAPER! Like I"m talking taper down to 0.5mg, preferably lower. I've been at 3mg since Dec, and I'm not going to come off yet. BUT, when I do, i am going to try to go as LOW as I can go. Try to see if you can drop down to like 0.1mg, and THEN 0.1mg EVERY OTHER DAY, and THEN take some lope if you need.

But I'm just starting to get a routine of exercise, healthy living, and my mind has shifted from drugs to normal mode. However, I am not ready to get off because as I said, I've JUST STARTED a routine, I want to have it embedded in my skull (Just like the routine of using opiates was embedded in my brain)

If you already have these routines and lifestyles established, the PAWS and sub withdrawals aren't really much at all, because your mind will be off of them. Dont stock up on other drugs. Dont start doing benzos. Quit the lifestyle, start a new one, and it will be a breeze. Everyone gives it a bad rep b/c people report bad w/d, but there are a TON of people who have written about how they jumped off subs with NO PROBLEMS/WITHDRAWALS AT ALL when they did it the right way. But we as addicts love to read about how hard something is so we have an excuse not to do it. Do it the right way.

Despite the unneeded accents this is a great post.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

I tried to hop off at .125mg's and even that was too much... I still had insomnia, (which is the WORST part for me) and some sweats/slight aches. I could have toughed it out.. but I was a pussy, and I was angry at the world for telling me that it "wouldn't be so bad coming off suboxone." I felt like I had just been let down big time..totally fucking duped by my doctors and all these others ass holes who glorified suboxone. So now..? I'm back on H full time totally strung the fuck out. Am I better off? Definitely not.

So, I think the answer.. or at least something I want to try.. Is jumping off the bupe at an incredibly low dose..like .0625mg's, a virtually microscopic dose. You could only really get a dose that small from cutting up the 2mg strips as the 8's just can't get that small.. But I feel like being stabilized on such a low dose is the way to jump off and have it be pretty painless. Something to try whenever I'm done tormenting myself with this H addiction.

 

[cire113]

You can't avoid withdrawals ever.. sorry... Gotta pay the piper always..

Sub is a super powerful opiate not to be taken lightly for maintence..

Though quitting at .1mg a day is definetly manageable with the right mindset plan and action

Good luck ..

Like everyone else said exercise is mandatory if u want even a chance

 

[Znegative]

well, I sadly have too tried to get off suboxone myself, weening down to 1 mg a day, but I was never able to do it and stay clean. However, I did kick 100 mg of methadone cold turkey in an inpatient rehab that lasted 5 months. When I got out, I relapsed immediately on heroin, but then stayed clean off of all drugs for 9 months.

The problem really is the PAWS IMO. Withdrawals suck sure, but there are things you can do to really minimize them (loperamide and gabapentin/lyrica to think of a few). Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome can be litterally debilitating from drugs like methadone and buprenorphine, which is why being in an inpatient enviroment during that time is kind of good (though only because the likeliness of procuring drugs is rather low... otherwise, I have very little respect at this points for the current treatment model for addiction that is practiced at the majority of such facility's.)

If you can get through the acute withdrawals, the only way to get back to baseline is basically to wait. Excersize and a healthy diet will help some, but you're still going to feel some (probably quite a bit-not to be discouraging) anxiety, depression and apathy.

 

[Selina_sanity]

I tried to hop off at .125mg's and even that was too much... I still had insomnia, (which is the WORST part for me) and some sweats/slight aches. I could have toughed it out.. but I was a pussy, and I was angry at the world for telling me that it "wouldn't be so bad coming off suboxone." I felt like I had just been let down big time..totally fucking duped by my doctors and all these others ass holes who glorified suboxone. So now..? I'm back on H full time totally strung the fuck out. Am I better off? Definitely not.

So, I think the answer.. or at least something I want to try.. Is jumping off the bupe at an incredibly low dose..like .0625mg's, a virtually microscopic dose. You could only really get a dose that small from cutting up the 2mg strips as the 8's just can't get that small.. But I feel like being stabilized on such a low dose is the way to jump off and have it be pretty painless. Something to try whenever I'm done tormenting myself with this H addiction.

Apparently it makes no difference if you taper or don't taper, its been said you WILL get hardcore withdrawals and extreme PAWS either way...I think the reason why tapering doesn't make a difference is because the half life, many people still feel the same at 0.5 then they did at 8mg or even 16mg, but coming off its been said its the same as going cold turkey, all your doing is jumping off a low dose but in terms of withdrawals and intensity and duration its still the same, because of the half life stacked, the half life makes you feel the same as your on any dose...

I have not personally met or seen anybody come off sub after being on it for over 5 months and more and stay clean, that is really worrying, the other frustrating and worrying part is that more and more people are claiming jumping off a low dose and tapering does not make any difference at all....People keep claiming of suicidile thoughts and extreme long PAWS for 3 pr 4 years but many people relapse before riding them out or many people go back on sub...

I haven't met anybody who said Lyrica/gabapentin/neurontine or any short acting opiate helps their withdrawals, you need to take that for 6 months to a year for it to have any affect but even then it has its own withdrawals and then you mixed that with sub PAWS it becomes a hellish nightmare...Somebody suffered neurontine withdrawals for 2 months after using it to combat suboxone withdrawals...I don't think anything helps...Am fearing folks may be stuck on sub for the rest of their life and that is a death sentence literally.. Its the extreme hardcore vile depression/PAWS which makes many relapse, even from jumping from a small dose such as 0.2...Ive met 6 people who tapered very slowly and to 0.1 and still suffered for 6 months and then relapsed, that is very worrying, particularly to folks who never ever had depression issues are usually strong minded folks, but even they suffer and relapse albeit a slow long taper... Some of these people were on sub for 6 months, 1 year and 2 years, so imagine how hard it is for 3 year users and over...

 

[Effuzion]

I got off suboxone after being on it for a year and a half. It took me a couple tries to get off. First time, I tried to do it at home, tapering down to .5 mg and staying at that dose for 2 weeks before jumping off completely, and I lasted I think 2-3 weeks of being off before the PAWS was just too much to handle and I relapsed on dope, then went immediately back on suboxone. Second time, I went to rehab and I've been off ever since. Going on 7 months now and the only drugs I have taken in that time are propranolol (a beta blocker, doesn't affect your brain at all) and I went out drinking one night with some high school friends a few weeks ago.

Anyway, exercise and a healthy diet really are the key. At first doing intense cardio with some light resistance training will make you feel amazing. High-intensity cardio releases a ton of endorphins, and in rehab I vividly remember going for a 3-mile run on the treadmill and lifting some light weights afterwards and feeling like a real person for an hour or 2. That gym time was the highlight of my day every day that I was in rehab. Once you've been doing that for a while (20-30 days) you can cut out the cardio and start on a heavy weight training program. When I came off suboxone, I had some blood work that showed I had extremely low DHEA and blood-testosterone; apparently that's a side effect from taking opiates every day. A lot of my depression and anxiety was not just from having no endorphins in my brain, it was from having no man juice. Doing heavy weight training exercises that work multiple muscles at once (squats & deadlifts especially) increase your testosterone like crazy. Plus you get to look like a sexy beast. I recommend starting a serious weight training program around 30 days clean. I did and I fucking love it (altho it took me about 2-3 more months to perfect it because no one told me how to lift). As for the diet, take a multivitamin and fish oil every day (get the fish oils with at least 600 mg omega 3's per 1000 mg capsule), and EAT FUCKING HEALTHY. Every decision you make with food should come down to: is this going to help my recovery or not? Cut out soda, candy, and fast food and start cooking meals and you will be golden.

If you need any more info on the weights or how to eat, let me know. I can go on for days about that shit since it's literally all I've been doing for the past 7 months. Keep in mind though, you really are going to feel like SHIT for a long time. In rehab I was so fucking emotionless that they had me keep a "feelings journal" where I had to write down every emotion I felt throughout the day. Some days I could only come up with one or two. I've made it a point to be brutally honest with myself about what I'm feeling and why, and it hasn't been easy, but it's definitely helped my recovery. Suboxone, more than any other drug, numbs you to shit and it takes forever to get through it. Exercise & eating healthy only speeds up the process; it doesn't cure you.

 

[Selina_sanity]

I hear people say all the time excercise doesnt do much because first of all you cannot move when in suboxone/subutex withdrawals, its also dangerous too because you can get seizures? let alone pull muscles?.

I prefer slim skinny men myself lol like most women these days, thats sexy for us hehe, but really I keep hearing more and more stories of sub users (5 months and over) struggling to be clean and staying clean...About 7 people I know who were sub users did a liver enzyme test and all said it was messed up, some even had 1 or brain lesions from being on suboxone, and these folks were veyr healthy, active and were never on opiates other then suboxone..Some have gone far to say methadone is less of the 2 evils even though both are hard to come off, more and more info about sub affects is coming out recently...There was someone on a forum who said they did vigerious exercise and still suffer PAWS for 2 years out, and this was being on sub for 10 months including tapering slowly and jumping off from 0.125mg.. These kind of negative truthful stories do not help, some even have said being on sub for over 6 months destroys your brain cells that you can never ever recover from all PAWS for the rest of your life if not 10 years..I hope this wasnt true but I won't be supervised if it is!