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Opioid maintenance - for or against?

footscrazy

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I'm creating this thread in response to a discussion that has taken hold in the heroin maintenance thread. So as to keep that discussion on topic, this is the place for more general discussions on the merits for or against maintenance.

Some points raised in the heroin maintenance thread are:

What is the point of maintenance? Is the overall aim of maintenance to quit opioids? Do you think that maintenance should be a short term treatment, or is it 'ok' for people to stay on it all their lives?

Whose responsibility is maintenance? Should it be covered by the health care system, or is maintenance a 'privilege' that addicts should have to pay for themselves?

What are the pros and the cons of maintenance?

Lets keep this civil. Thanks ladies, gentlemen :D
 
Okay this is my opinion on this subject.

I think opioid maintenance should be covered 100% by the health care system, I also think that there should be flexibility in what specific opioids are used in the maintenance. I believe there should be more variables basically, so the treatment can be more tailored to the addicts specific needs.

I think all addicts should be encouraged to quit opioids, but if a person is truly happy to be an addict all their lives, i see nothing wrong with this, i also see nothing wrong with addicts experiencing pleasure from their maintenance. But only if the addict in question is contributing to society in one way or another, this doesn't have to be work per say, but as long as they are contributing to society i don't see the problem with someone being addicted to opioids, getting abit of a high off them, getting them for free or at low cost from a clinic or what have you, i don't see what is wrong with this.

People can be functional addicts on opioids, the same can't generally be said for say methamphetamine addicts or whatever.
 
I understand this, but if you eat well and sleep well the risks are mainly psychological and/or cardiovascular. I mean meth itself isn't directly neurotoxic, although the effects (like uncontrolled release) is neurotoxic for the dopamine and serotonin pathways. I understand all of this, but I think not eat and not sleeping is incredibly bad for you, compared to a healthy lifestyle whilst using meth. I mean we could start talking about the similarities of d-amphetamine and methadone with meth and heroin respectively and discuss the differences of effects and yada yada but I don't think foots will be happy about us doing it in his thread, and I'm ignorant and couldn't really engage in a conversation like that in the way other members may be able to.
 
^ look, i don't think there's much to be said against opiate maintenance.
people can say what they will about the treatment, but it is pretty accepted by the medical establishment and has been practiced even the most conservative governments.
 
I understand this, but if you eat well and sleep well the risks are mainly psychological and/or cardiovascular. I mean meth itself isn't directly neurotoxic, although the effects (like uncontrolled release) is neurotoxic for the dopamine and serotonin pathways. I understand all of this, but I think not eat and not sleeping is incredibly bad for you, compared to a healthy lifestyle whilst using meth. I mean we could start talking about the similarities of d-amphetamine and methadone with meth and heroin respectively and discuss the differences of effects and yada yada but I don't think foots will be happy about us doing it in his thread, and I'm ignorant and couldn't really engage in a conversation like that in the way other members may be able to.

Meth is neurotoxic at higher doses and with prolonged-use.........are you joking?
 
Can you please provide a source backing that up? I'm under the impression that the neurotoxic effects are a result of an increase of dopamine/dopamine oxidation, and excitotoxicity from glutamate/oxidative stress as well as serotonin pathways being affected as well as some shit happening to the mitochondria and yada yada
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11516769
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12853314
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19426289
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12105098
http://www.le.ac.uk/users/cd133/davidson BrResRev01.pdf
http://www.if-pan.krakow.pl/pjp/pdf/2009/6_966.pdf
I don't know much about it, but if you've got a source you should link it. Then again this has gone completely OT, but I'd still like to see a source proving meth is directly neurotoxic.
 
^Dude i might be totally wrong but assuming this statement of yours is true, 'the neurotoxic effects are a result of an increase of dopamine/dopamine oxidation, and excitotoxicity from glutamate/oxidative stress as well as serotonin pathways being affected as well as some shit happening to the mitochondria and yada yada', dosn't this statement basically say that methamphetamine use is neurotoxic. Methamp causes increase of dopamine and dopamine oxidation does it not? Maybe i'm missing something but dosn't this imply methamp is directly neurotoxic?

Pretty sure it is common knowledge that methamphetamine use is neurotoxic man.
 
I don't believe that maintenance is in the addicts best interest. If someone is having problems with their drug use then is it not better that they get off than be tied to their addiction forever? You never hear a person with kidney disease saying that their life is satisfactory as long as they are attached to their dialysis machine for the rest of their life. I'm not saying that it isn't a good first step, but I believe it should be just the start of a plan to eventually end their addiction.

Maintenance is prolonging the drugs grip on an addict. Look around at the methadone patients here on bluelight and you see that after a year or two, the majority realise that the honeymoon period is over and they are still addicted to a drug. Like it or not at some stage you have to do the hard yards and go through withdrawal. Many would argue that WD from methadone is far more difficult than heroin itself. There is a price to pay for enjoying the highs, it catches up eventually.

The only benefit is they are no longer a slave to searching for their poison but their life is still shackled to their addiction. Your life is essentially a prison around your supply. How easy is it to take your kids away for a holiday without having the worry of when you will receive your next dose? You are kidding yourself if you think maintenance some how sets you free. If you prefer your life to be restricted to your local suburb then fine, but you will always be a slave.
 
In a fairy tale world where we all lived in mansions overlooking the sea and had a previous life of high level drug running to fund our educations for high paying jobs, everyone in the world would be a clean, perfect addition to society, only using drugs that they themselves think are morally acceptable. Not those "dirty" drugs. Shame on those people for using drugs other than those we do, right Busty.

The truth is addiction to opiates is as easy habit to get into, and a hard one to get out of. Without maintenance as an option, there would be a lot more suicides, a lot more crime, a lot more everything negative you could think of. These points have been raised in the other thread and I don't feel like repeating what's already been said, it seems like the whole board is split down the middle and not open to proper debate. Opiod maintenance for the majority of people is about stabilizing their life, getting their physical and mental health in order and trying to get a normal routine which doesn't revolve around scoring (needlessly) illegal drugs. The objective is to get off at some point, but it differs in time for each individual. Just as there is no one size fits all treatment for just about any condition, addiction is one of the hardest to treat because there are so many elements about it, many of which are not well understood by the medical community. When you have ignorant doctors who can't even see the most basic of facts, it's unlikely we'll ever progress forward with our understanding.

Opiod maintenance saves lives, saves tax payers money and helps thousands of individuals who are not ALL THE SAME STEREOTYPICAL JUNKY live somewhat normal lives.

Slightly off-topic: I honestly don't see the difference between a pain patient getting prescribed morphine sulphate, oxycodone or hydromorphone (or a combination) for the long-term because they ended up with a physical dependance to the drug, due to the doctors that prescribed them in the first place, and recreational users who have gone to the system to seek help put on a less euphoric medication because who would want a dirty junky patient to get the same treatment as a pain patient? They are both patients and both should be treated with respect and the best care available, but because one has a negative stereotype due to some being complete dickheads, it doesn't mean everyone on any form of maintenance is a complete scumbag. That would be like stereotyping all doctors, saying they're rapists, child molestors and negligent because some have shown that to be the case.
 
I'm mostly against it, but I think that there are some people that can legitimately benefit from at least a 6-12 month taper. I think that more of a focus should be put on detox facilities instead of methadone clinics. The reason being that a persons mind frame drastically changes once they are no longer dependent on a drug, and I think that most people that get on methadone do so while they are heavily dependent on opiates, so therefore are still in the mind frame of being dependent on opiates to function.

I haven't seen enough people on methadone that are actually taking their treatment seriously (not taking benzos, alcohol, cocaine, or amphetamines, and actually working on their recovery) to convince me that it's the best option for the addicts that choose this course of treatment. In 2007-2008 I was on suboxone for 18 months, and although I stopped getting high on heroin and oxycodone, I drank a lot of alcohol and took a lot of xanax.

Since then I have taken several 4-6 month breaks, but recently I have still been using heroin, but 1-2x a week, and at times I have come across enough free drugs to get dependent, but after kicking I can take a few weeks off of opiates without much difficulty. Although my continued use is not ideal, I think that it's far better than getting on methadone or going back on suboxone, but of course everyone is different, and therefore addiction should be treated on a case by case basis. In due time something should click, and I will hopefully put down the dope for good, but until then I will stay focused on not catching a habit, and trying to limit my use more and more.

Now there are some people that I know that use daily, spending all of their money on heroin, with no end in site. For people like that I can see methadone being beneficial, but I think it should be used for a 6-12 month taper instead of long-term maintenance. It's hard to quit heroin when you are broke from spending all of your money on staying well, so methadone can at least help with that so they can save their money to improve some aspects of their life (paying off debt, taking care of legal issues, getting a car and/or apartment). Otherwise it's just too easy for most addicts to say "fuck it, I'm in debt, have a few warrants out for my arrest, no savings or hopes of getting a car, so I might as well just keep getting high so I don't have to think about my shitty situation." If they were to just go to a 5 day detox then they would be too vulnerable to relapse soon after getting out since it's a lot of stress to handle for someone that just got clean, and it's so easy to just pick up as an escape.

Overall I think that there should be more options for people to detox. In the US it's pretty hard for a lot of people to get into a detox facility. Between not having health insurance or the money for the detox, and having to wait for an open bed at a detox, it's just easier for some addicts to get on methadone and pay what they would be spending for one hit of smack for a week at the clinic. But then weeks turn into months, and months turn into years, and 60mg/day turns into 200mg/day (I'm not sure about Australia, but in the US the 100mg/day limit was lifted a while back, and patients are now allowed to continue to increase their dosage every 2-3 days if they want, which results in some patients being on dosages in the 200-400mg range.)

I haven't heard enough methadone success stories to make me a supporter of it, and most of the arguments for it aren't really that solid. For instance, some will say that methadone maintenance will keep addicts from doing illegal things to support their habits, but anyone that has been to the clinic knows that a lot of illegal drug dealing goes on there, whether it be benzos, heroin, or other drugs. Another argument for MMT is that when people get on methadone they won't be doing illegal street drugs, therefore making them less likely to OD. Now I don't know the statistics, but a lot of people on MMT fatally overdose, especially from the methadone/benzos combination, so I don't think that argument holds water. As with anything though, a few bad apples shouldn't spoil it for the people that are taking their recovery on MMT seriously, but then again I wouldn't be surprised if the people on MMT that are taking their recovery seriously are in the minority. Either way, people should not be deprived of treatments that can be beneficial to them, and at the end of the day an individual needs to be held accountable for themselves and their own recovery.

Perhaps it's not opioid maintenance in general that I think is not very beneficial, but more of the choice of drug that they use for maintenance that is the problem. I understand that methadone has a long half-life thus making it appealing for these programs that want to control the treatment by giving a daily dose without having to worry much about withdrawal. However, I think that the persons DOC would work a lot better as their maintenance drug. A person is going to get high until they are ready to quit, so only allowing them methadone or buprenorphine is only taking care of keeping the person out of withdrawals. If they still wish to get high, they will find a way to do so, and in the case of methadone the measures that people will go to in order to get some kind of high are usually more dangerous than if they were just allowed their DOC. A person can't be forced to get clean if they don't want to, and if they wish to continue to do their DOC (either for maintenance, tapering, or a high) without going to illegal measures to do so, they should be allowed the option to obtain their DOC instead of having to settle for an alternative that could cause more problems than their DOC.

We all know that most heroin overdoses are a result of a more potent batch, or a person doing their normal dose after a break, so allowing patients to take a known dose of their DOC for maintenance would eliminate some of the risk of OD. The other common cause of OD is drug combinations, but they still occur on methadone, arguably more so than with opiates such as heroin, and most people on heroin usually take these combinations if they can't afford to get high on heroin, a situation that would not be as much of an issue if a patient was allotted a known dose that they needed.

So overall I think that the current maintenance drugs being used are the main issue why opioid maintenance is not that effective in lowering the amount of problems involved with the addicts lifestyle. The other issue that I see is the lack of resources for detoxes, which force people that do not require maintenance for the treatment of their addiction to enter into these maintenance programs, which may just prolong the amount of time before they are off of opiates, or may also cause their addiction to become worse since methadone harder to come off of compared to heroin and other common opiates/opioids.
 
Not to undermine these problems, but if we're going to talk about addicts suffering I've seen some fucking horrid pictures of children in Eastern Europe who are using oral syringes with makeshift needles and they're sharing it around because it's such a massive syringe and they're all homeless and it's just fucked. I know things could be better here, and we shouldn't stop pushing for progression, but we should grateful for the help/resources we do have.
 
I cannot tell you anything about opiod maintenence. When I kicked a year-long Oxycodone habit, I did it cold turkey. Skip forward a few years later, and I'm on H now. Hrm...

What I do have experience with, is nictotine replacement therapy. It's a similar concept, as far as I can see. And for me, it doesn't work. It just allows me to get by, until I have a chance to start smoking again. When I quit H (very soon), I'm not going on maintenence, because I feel my addictive personality is far too strong, and my willpower far too weak to handle it. I need to just quit.

This is just my opinion of course.
 
Can we keep this on opioid maintenance rather than neutoxicity of meth? Beejesus! Further discussion should be directed to the....you guys can make the meth neurotoxicity thread :P
 
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