Should all drugs be 100% legal?

[Renz Envy]

No, no and no.

Although I expected this poll result.

Its a fuckin utopia, people would consume even bigger amounts of the hardest drugs than now, society = game over.

To explain more, people are DUMB in general and NOT responsible. Adding a huge warning on each bag like "COKE WILL KILL YOU" wouldnt help anything, just look at cigarettes. Those who already take drugs would continue and many others who are currently scared to take them would start.

The argument that people take drugs anyway is not an argument, not at all. Murders also still happen. Should we legalize murders then..?

If it was ME, I would also ban tobacco since thats a very hard drug. Not alcohol though, not truly hard drug imo.

I definitely agree with the first part. If drugs were legalized, then a good part of society would lose themselves in hard drug abuse. Imagine giving heroin and coke to someone that has only ever known alcohol. That person would be lost chasing euphoria for a while. Possibly even kill themselves.

Tobacco isn't really a hard drug though. Hard drugs are more categorized by their ability to mindlessly obsess people. For example, a meth addict will keep redosing long after the bad side effects of meth begin.

What about alcohol? Its volume and mechanism of action keep it from being illegal in my opinion. One cannot simply chase euphoria on alcohol as the drug does not allow the person to accurately remember what the euphoria was. Overdosing is less common as alcohol's large volume makes it more difficult to consume lethal quantities. Especially with beer. It also promotes sleep, provides calories, lowers anxiety and has various other uses other than being a drug. Think about all of the people who drink and never become addicted to alcohol. Now think of all of the people who do heroin or meth, are they still using?

3. You say that "Those who already take drugs would continue and many others who are currently scared to take them would start." There's just no evidence to suggest that this is true, not even one iota or shred of evidence. I have many friends who are very simply not interested in using drugs, and should drugs one day become legal, I feel very confident that I'd never drop in on one such friend only to have him answer the door with a crack-pipe hanging out of his mouth; these friends don't do drugs and they're not interested in drugs, legal or not, and that's just what it is. Again, you don't seem to be giving people enough credit. We're not robots, and we're not programmed to believe that the legality of one thing or another inherently means that it's OK. Abortion is legal, and not everyone agrees that abortion is OK. It's legal to own a pistol, but not everyone owns a pistol or believes that it's OK to own one. The same is true for drugs...

4. "Should we legalize murders then...?" It's so ridiculous that I'm not sure it deserves a response, but I can probably point out the flaw in this argument and your reasoning all in just one sentence: No, we shouldn't "legalize murder" because when you murder someone, you are affecting that person's well-being and not merely your own, as when you take drugs. (Yep, one sentence...)

What really decides what is right and what is wrong? Does legality? Society? Religion?

I do not believe legalizing hard core drugs would benefit the future of the human race. I think that drugs are a speed bump in our evolution. It's almost a complete fluke that they exist. These particles are capable of mimicking the feelings of reward, thus causing us to seek them out over things that we evolved to desire, such as food, sex and social acceptance.

My theory is that
drug legalization laws keep those that seek these compounds from ever reaching certain levels of society, thus restraining their ability to raise children and reproduce.

 

[verso]

Think about all of the people who drink and never become addicted to alcohol. Now think of all of the people who do heroin or meth, are they still using?

Actually, the statistics that I have seen indicate that heroin's habit-forming, addictive potential (not sure about meth) is on par with alcohol, and actually less than tobacco's. In other words, relatively the same number of people who drink and become alcoholics is about the same as the number of people who use/have used heroin and become addicts.

You might not agree, but that's what the research seems to show. I've posted the findings around here somewhere; I'll have to try digging them up...

 

[Renz Envy]

Actually, the statistics that I have seen indicate that heroin's habit-forming, addictive potential (not sure about meth) is on par with alcohol, and actually less than tobacco's. In other words, relatively the same number of people who drink and become alcoholics is about the same as the number of people who use/have used heroin and become addicts.

You might not agree, but that's what the research seems to show. I've posted the findings around here somewhere; I'll have to try digging them up...

I could see how that may be true, however these studies, I'm sure were taken long after heroin was made illegal. What would you rather do? Drink everyday or smoke/shoot dope everyday? I'm sure if both were illegal, we would see that the dope is by far a more rewarding choice.

Meth is incredibly addicting. In rat studies, after only a single dose of meth, the rat was addicted to the feeling for the rest of its life.

 

[verso]

I could see how that may be true, however these studies, I'm sure were taken long after heroin was made illegal. What would you rather do? Drink everyday or smoke/shoot dope everyday? I'm sure if both were illegal, we would see that the dope is by far a more rewarding choice.

It doesn't matter when the studies were done or what size their study groups were (which is what I imagine you're alluding to) because they crunched their numbers into percentages and therefore made the whole thing proportional. It's not like they studied 1,000 people who drink alcohol and just 100 people who use or have used heroin and so somehow skewed the numbers and misled readers by posting that 100 (of the 1,000 people) became alcoholics and that the same number, 100 people (out of 100 people), became addicted to heroin. Do you see what I'm saying?

And also, it's not a fair question to ask what I would prefer because alcohol is not my drug of choice and heroin is. If you were to ask an alcoholic what he or she prefers, dope or heroin, it's more likely that they'd say alcohol. In fact, I have a friend who enjoys heroin every now and again, but he prefers alcohol as he's, well, an alcoholic.

 

[Renz Envy]

It doesn't matter when the studies were done or what size their study groups were (which is what I imagine you're alluding to) because they crunched their numbers into percentages and therefore made the whole thing proportional. It's not like they studied 1,000 people who drink alcohol and just 100 people who use or have used heroin and so somehow skewed the numbers and misled readers by posting that 100 (of the 1,000 people) became alcoholics and that the same number, 100 people (out of 100 people), became addicted to heroin. Do you see what I'm saying?

And also, it's not a fair question to ask what I would prefer because alcohol is not my drug of choice and heroin is. If you were to ask an alcoholic what he or she prefers, dope or heroin, it's more likely that they'd say alcohol. In fact, I have a friend who enjoys heroin every now and again, but he prefers alcohol as he's, well, an alcoholic.

What I mean is, I feel like they use alcohol more often, because it is socially acceptable. Where as, if heroin were to be accepted, then individuals would choose that over alcohol. I strongly believe heroin is many, many times more addictive than alcohol.

Your friend may fear judgment for heroin use, therefore he chooses not to use it. I can drink as much as I want to and be well-liked, however on other substances, I am treated like dirt. Not being socially admitted greatly lessens my motivation to use a substance often.

 

[brokenstrings]

What I mean is, I feel like they use alcohol more often, because it is socially acceptable. Where as, if heroin were to be accepted, then individuals would choose that over alcohol. I strongly believe heroin is many, many times more addictive than alcohol.

Your friend may fear judgment for heroin use, therefore he chooses not to use it. I can drink as much as I want to and be well-liked, however on other substances, I am treated like dirt. Not being socially admitted greatly lessens my motivation to use a substance often

They aren´t even in the same category of substance.
Alchool is a party drug used to reduce inibition , i cannot imagine heroin in the same situation.
I think the problem with our society is that Alchool is not even considered as drug , you see a lot of references to the expression " Alchool and drugs " as if alchool was not in the same category.

Drinking is commonplace and accepted , hell even some times encouraged , the propouse of legalizing drugswould be harm reduction and we should proced in a different way making drugs available but certainly not accepted , nor advertised , nor should we hide their dangers .

The reason tobbaco and alchool are so used is that people have been fed so much false information

Its just a point of the pros of legalization outweighing the cons , we would reduce crime , reduce the contaminants in drugs , spend the money allocated to law enforcement for treatment and education , reduce overdoses /aids spread .

Of course the number of people using drugs would increase but i think it would be worth it .

 

[Folley]

Actually, the statistics that I have seen indicate that heroin's habit-forming, addictive potential (not sure about meth) is on par with alcohol

I'm sorry, but that's just straight and plain bull shit. You can drink for your first time, and maybe you want to do it again, but it just stays at that. There is no need to go running out and buy more. With heroin, after that FIRST time, its on your mind. Constantly. If you keep doing it, you get sick if you DON'T have it. With booze, you get sick if you drink too much, which keeps many people from doing it too often.

Alcohol and other drugs can be extremely addictive in their own right, but drugs like heroin and meth just cannot be used by a "regular" person responsibly.. not with any kind of regularity that is...



I'm all for legalization, but I think if you want to use HARD drugs like those, you should have to go through a LONG, LONG orientation/drug education classes

 

[Renz Envy]

I'm all for legalization, but I think if you want to use HARD drugs like those, you should have to go through a LONG, LONG orientation/drug education classes

There really isn't a clear line between hard drugs and soft drugs. There are substances like marijuana in which have few side effects and do not promote drug seeking behavior. However, there are also harder substances such as GHB in which daily use could potentially lengthen one's lifespan, but yet are also highly addictive and legalization would only lead to a population of addicts.

A drug orientation course would be pointless in my opinion when it comes to things like heroin or meth. The human mind craves drugs, because it desires reward chemicals. Even after years of harm reduction and addiction studies, I am sure many students would still end up becoming addicted to hard substances.

The mindset of "Well this should be legal, because people do it anyway even if it's illegal" is not necessarily right. FDA approval can save lives by keeping those with health conditions away from drugs in which will exacerbate the effects of their condition resulting in hospitalization or death.

I say this, because a friend of mine died at a rave after consuming 3 ecstasy pills. He had a heart defect. As skrillex began to play live, his heart was unable to handle the added stress of powerful stimulants, thus he had a heart attack and died later in the hospital.

Conclusion Edit: I am not attempting to be a shining example here by saying drug use is not right. I have my experience with hard drugs and the people who do them. Individuals that take on substances that obsess the user should not be put in the same boat as those who take substances to promote fun, healthy social activity.

 

[brutus]

Meth is incredibly addicting. In rat studies, after only a single dose of meth, the rat was addicted to the feeling for the rest of its life.

I've done meth one time a few years ago and I haven't ever wanted to do it again.

 

[Renz Envy]

I've done meth one time a few years ago and I haven't ever wanted to do it again.

There are a lot of factors in which can make the experience unpleasant.

Bottom line is that without external factors and in a controlled lab setting, it provides animals with an intense feeling that is unforgettable.

 

[brutus]

^ I had a pleasant experience on it, but I know what you mean. I wanted to try it just once and so far it's been the only drug that I was able to do that with. I ended up smoking crack around 30 times after I tried it just once.

 

[verso]

I'm sorry, but that's just straight and plain bull shit. You can drink for your first time, and maybe you want to do it again, but it just stays at that. There is no need to go running out and buy more. With heroin, after that FIRST time, its on your mind. Constantly. If you keep doing it, you get sick if you DON'T have it. With booze, you get sick if you drink too much, which keeps many people from doing it too often.

It's what the studies show, man, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I for one never understood how so many could believe in the inherent addictiveness of substances like heroin and at the same time believe that the same is not true for substances like alcohol, as though there's some sort of a mystical, extraordinary quality to heroin, as though it's more than merely a chemical (and merely morphine with two added acetyl groups at that), as though the heroin molecule contains some sort of unique physical attribute that one can point to as the one thing that makes heroin so unbelievably addictive, as though no other factor, not one's predisposition to addiction, not one's genetic makeup... nothing else contributes to one's developing an addiction, as though heroin hits the "addiction!" button in a person's brain, and that's simply that.

But of course we know that none of this is true, that heroin is simply another potent, feel-good drug, another chemical that many will become addicted to, and many others will not very much in the same way that many who pick up drinking will become alcoholics, and many others will not. It depends upon many factors, and one's genetic makeup, predisposition to addiction, and personality type are all such factors...

Also, I've never known anyone to blow down a line of dope or take a shot of dope and become addicted in that very moment. On this point, if no other point, I'm sure that many others who have been there and done that will agree with me. Addiction is a obsessive-compulsive sort of thing, and it's making all the right associations in the brain that brings on full-blown addiction, making the association between shooting up and feeling good, blowing down a line and feeling good, the taste, the smell, etc. One makes these associations over time, and so that whole "the first time and you're hooked" business is really more just what we tell children to scare them away from drugs than how it really happens.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. But the research makes sense to me and reinforces what I've always believed to be true.

Oh, but also, when one kicks alcohol, they experience withdrawal symptoms that can be quite dangerous... convulsions, seizures, hallucinations, and other symptoms that can be life-threatening, in fact. When one kicks heroin, one will experience great discomfort, but to my knowledge no one has ever died and the symptoms are far less dangerous. I'm surprised that you didn't know this about alcohol withdrawal ?

 

[Folley]

How many people withdrawal from alcohol compared to heroin though? How many people can use alcohol every once in a while with no problem, and how many people can do the same with heroin?

Its possible sure, but its not gonna happen for that many people...


I tried dope once, smoked some tar and hardly even did it right. Got high throughout the day, but I wasted a ton and never even felt anything that would make it better than oral Percocet...

but still the next day I felt rather "sick" and queasy, and REALLY wanted to try some again to "get it right". I fought it off though, as well as fighting off a week or two of craving it BADLY, and being offered it for almost free quite often.



Many many many people get addicted to alcohol as well, but their addictions never seem to spiral so completely out of control like a junkie's can... the same is true for meth and even crack, if a person tries that drug, they are PROBABLY going to want to do it again. If they have access to it anytime they want (being sold at the local liquor store, or whatever), that could lead to major problems for them.


I would rather we legalize all drugs, but only make the weaker versions available to the public. Dex-Amphetamine, Oxycodone... If you want to shoot heroin, you have to get a license and get tax stamps and all that, like with automatic weapons and suppressors..

 

[verso]

How many people withdrawal from alcohol compared to heroin though? How many people can use alcohol every once in a while with no problem, and how many people can do the same with heroin?

Well how many people do you think would readily jump up and say to you, "I use heroin occasionally." And, likewise, how many newspaper articles do you think would read, "Man takes heroin only on the weekends both safely and responsibly." Doesn't sound like an interesting read to me...

So yeah, you'll both meet and read about those people who have problems. But I don't doubt that there are those people out there who can use heroin without developing an addiction... I think that it depends upon a lot of different factors.

Many many many people get addicted to alcohol as well, but their addictions never seem to spiral so completely out of control like a junkie's can...

You've never lived with an alcoholic, have you? I can assure you that, without question, an alcoholic's life can spiral just as completely out of control as any junkie's if not more so...

 

[Folley]

Oh I have, trust me. But many alcoholics are still very functional, they just feel the NEED to get fucked up every night...

You don't really get the chance to only use heroin at night, you need it all day long to keep from getting sick...


There are certain kinds of addicts, that should be differentiated... there is the kind that doesn't want to be an addict, and just keeps using to keep the bad feelings away. Then there is the kind that doesn't give a shit, and just wants to keep getting higher and higher.

I think drugs like heroin and meth makes a lot more of the second kind than alcohol ever would... any level of drug use on that level is going to destroy your life, but its just that those kind of drugs cause it to happen much more often..

 

[verso]

^ Well, I disagree.

I know many more heroin addicts who, when given their one daily fix, are entirely functional for the rest of the day and can go about their business as usual. I know very few heroin addicts, zero in fact, who need more than one fix a day and who score heroin all day long and fiend for it all day long. Though, crack seems to be a different story, and so you're probably right about that...

But, alcohol... I know very few functional alcoholics. They drink in the morning, drink in the afternoon, drink at night... drink whenever they can and however much they can.

 

[Folley]

Yeah and if those same alcoholics did heroin instead, they would probably be doing the same, just shooting up, no?


I guess it really comes down to WHO is using, but I just feel that more people would get into problems with addiction if heroin was as widely accepted and used as alcohol..


There will always be that certain percentage that just cannot use responsibly though, I just think it would be much better for them to be doing it with "softer" drugs than an extremely powerful one like heroin.

But yes, I am aware that opiates cause little to no damage to the body, especially compared to alcohol. Oxycodone or even Hydrocodone are just much better substitutes IMO. If you used those up, got addicted and want to move on to something stronger though, you should at least be able to get it pure and without worry.

 

[verso]

Yeah and if those same alcoholics did heroin instead, they would probably be doing the same, just shooting up, no?

No, not necessarily, not if alcohol is what gets their rocks off and they're not genetically predisposed or prone to opiate addiction. It might not be in their body chemistry, their genes or their make-up... if it is, then yeah, I suppose they'd be shooting up for sure.

Take myself, for example. I've used plenty of drugs to excess, and I've experienced varying degrees of physical dependency and addiction. I've experienced the physical dependency with heroin, but not so much the mental cravings that everyone talks about. I'll often write in the "what drug are you craving?" thread that I'm craving heroin, but in all sincerity, it's more just the feeling of, "yeah, that'd be nice right about now" and not so much feeling like "damn, I need it."

Of all things, adderall is what hooked me more than any other substance I've ever taken, and I say that with complete and utter honesty. I thought about it, craved it, needed it, and man... kicking it was an unbelievably hard thing for me to do. I'm sure that others would laugh at the idea and wonder how in the hell I could ever become addicted to fucking adderall, but that's what did it for me, that's what got my rocks off, and that's what hit the switch in my brain.

Adderall can be habit-forming and addictive, so it's not too, too surprising, but then again, many others take adderall only occasionally without ever experiencing the level of dependency and addiction that I experienced. So is adderall more addictive than heroin? In my experience, yes, but in another's experience, no, probably not. It depends not solely on the drug, not solely on the person, but on both these things and many different factors.

What I'm trying to say is that the idea a drug, be it heroin, crack, methamphetamine, whatever... can cause addiction 100% of the time in 100% of people and on the very first dose is... well, it's ridiculous. It doesn't happen like that and it doesn't happen that way. It's hard for us to believe because I think we've all been taught this very rudimentary, middle-school notion that there's some hierarchy of addictive and dangerous substances with marijuana somewhere at the bottom, hallucinogens and dissociatives like acid and ketamine a little further up, maybe cocaine and "speed" a little further up from that, but heroin definitely and unarguably at the top. I can still remember filling in those stupid charts in "health class" ...

But, truth be told, it's just so much more complex than that.

 

[Folley]

What I'm trying to say is that the idea a drug, be it heroin, crack, methamphetamine, whatever... can cause addiction 100% of the time in 100% of people and on the very first dose is... well, it's ridiculous. It doesn't happen like that and it doesn't happen that way.

Well yeah... but who is saying that? There are people than can use heroin with no troubles at all, there are people that got addicted and now moderate their use very well, people like you. But there are a lot of people that don't use responsibly, and that's probably a much higher number with heroin than it is with alcohol.. at least ratio wise.



People should have the choice to do whatever they want, at least drug wise. They should just also have to know all the information before they make that choice, so they know the consequences, as well as the benefits they can provide.

Honestly, in one pure IV dose, heroin is probably one of the safest drugs out there. But it's the repeated use and addiction potential that makes it so dangerous for the average user...

 

[verso]

But there are a lot of people that don't use responsibly, and that's probably a much higher number with heroin than it is with alcohol.. at least ratio wise.

(shrugs) I still can't imagine why that would be, what heroin's unique attribute could be that would account for such a discrepancy, and the research doesn't seem to support that idea at any rate. But, before we begin going in circles here, I guess it's to each his own and we're all entitled to our own beliefs.