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Is killing a human being...

Really depends on the situation.

I see no problem with employing violence to end violence. Violence can be used for good. It is a tool like anything else.
 
nAON said:
Oh yeah, and to elaborate - for a human, of course, killing a human is gonna be worse than killing a cockroach, because we feel more empathy for a human than we do a cockroach, and the worth is pretty much assigned on a sliding scale as to how closely we relate to them (ie., a social mammal is gonna be have more worth than some insect, particularly if that insect is deemed a pest or harmful).

From the cockroaches perspective, I assume that they would regard cockroach life as the most valuable, with humans as just being some marauding nuisance which should be disrupted whenever possible.
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You're onto something.
 
freddy47 said:
Really depends on the situation.

I see no problem with employing violence to end violence. Violence can be used for good. It is a tool like anything else.
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Violence is a tool and categories are meaningless. In the end everything is really just nothing. Can't we just exist with each other and do what I say?
 
Portillo said:
Whats the basis for believing that life is sacred. Is their an objective reference for it?
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No, but not much that exists is objective. Even the concept of meaning is human made. Nothing has meaning until given some by the beholder.

To answer your question, our entire existence (more specifically morals, however corrupted they may be) is based around an effort to bring order and fairness (again, subjective) to a universe moving slowly toward disorder. Even greed and selfishness follow this principle, and I believe this is where the principles of good and evil stem from. Generally society's views and standards align with this effort, to the best of public knowledge anyway. This is why society's standards are always considered good, or at least justified by those who determine what they are.

Ending a life when doing so does you no good is never acceptable and never good because it brings disorder. Killing is justified when it is done so to protect, feed, or somehow further your existence, which you believe to be of more value than the existence you are ending.
 
Biovail said:
No, but not much that exists is objective. Even the concept of meaning is human made. Nothing has meaning until given some by the beholder.

To answer your question, our entire existence (more specifically morals, however corrupted they may be) is based around an effort to bring order and fairness (again, subjective) to a universe moving slowly toward disorder. Even greed and selfishness follow this principle, and I believe this is where the principles of good and evil stem from. Generally society's views and standards align with this effort, to the best of public knowledge anyway. This is why society's standards are always considered good, or at least justified by those who determine what they are.

Ending a life when doing so does you no good is never acceptable and never good because it brings disorder. Killing is justified when it is done so to protect, feed, or somehow further your existence, which you believe to be of more value than the existence you are ending.
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Good post.
 
I think of killing another person like so:

Have you ever had a family member pass away? Murdered? Hurt or Disabled in a serious manner?

If you have, think back to the time when it happened, the feelings coming towards you, the despair before the eventual acceptance that what has happened cannot be changed and you have to deal with it in your own terms.

You are simply bringing about this same, often horrible, feeling onto another innocent person whome you do not know or have any connection with in any way by killing or seriously harming another human being.
Animals have emotions as well but we cannot feel them to the extent that we do with other Human Beings. It's just a species differnce type thing. You can't hear a dog pouring its heart out or feel what it felt when it loses a member of its 'pack' or 'family' ...

Killing in the name of revenge is irrational at times, in my opinion, because you will only cause the same exact feeling to be brought about back towards yourself from the group which you attack.
It begins an endless cycle of revenge/regret/anger/depression that can only stop when one party accepts what has happened and tries to show the attacking party the error of their ways, as well as your own (This is very important).

Even then, some people simply won't accept this.
Example: The worst thing that I've witnessed was the aftermath of a suicide bombing which had killed my grandfather. Walking into the room, headless corpse on the floor, bits of brain on the roof and blood everywhere. Single-handedly the worst thing I've ever experienced. Not going into details of what my parents had gone through.

Initial feeling? Well they caught one of the accomplices, they locked him up and all I wanted to do was to go down there with my brass-knuckles and make his face unrecognizable from a beating that would last him the rest of his life.
What would be worse? Finding a family member of theirs and murdering them... Maybe blinding him with a knife?
Horrible, horrible, sick thoughts ran through my mind that day.



But would it have been worth it in the end? Not at all.
I would have ended up demonizing my image, and creating a habit of taking revenge on those who wrong me which would last me the rest of my life.
I rather focused on remembering the good lessons my grandfather had tought me in his wise-years... RIP



Why kill somebody? In the end, the negatives far outweigh the benefits... The best one can do is open anothers mind with lessons and try to pin-point exactly why a person did what they did. It will almost always end up with radical non-sense that could have been dealt with in another fasion which would be beneficial to both parties...

What did I see in this regard? Well if I had the chance to speak to a Taliban suicide bomber, I would try to find out what led them to that point in their life? Is it for a religious cause? How could killing those of his own religious beliefs be positive for this cause? Has it been positive at all or has it only led to negative tensions for the greater cause which he is willing to give his life for? Would the people who convinced them to become a suicide-bomber do the same action in a heartbeat? If not, why? Why beyond that, let the person ponder on the deep rooted reasons as to why a person in a high-up position has the right to decide who lives and who dies?

In that same sense, is it not God which should decide who lives and who dies? Does the Taliban Bomber not believe that anyone playing or imitating god deserves death and a sentance to hell? Is he not playing god by deciding which innocent lives to kill? At this point he may answer it is god's will that _insertperson_ deserved to die, but I would respond that it is not god that is pulling the trigger but you, you have the choice of doing it or not doing it, therefore you are playing god and are being hypocritical to your own beliefs.
Is he lost and needs a new path to show his beliefs in a way that is positive for both the preaching & recieving end?
At this point extreme therapy and care with a good & open environment would be necessary...


You can go into extreme details and really break somebody down if you have the oppurtunity, but first you must get them to break into their own psyche and find any rational way of thinking to expose and bring about them... But this is often one of the most difficult things for anyone to do.
I often wonder if something such as MDMA for interrogating hard-line terrorist extremists would be a good way to reform them into better people to actually change their way...
Until people actually feel extreme despair to extreme regret for their actions by feeling it from the ones they have hurt, they will never change their ways...
MDMA is a key in my opinion... But this is another discussion

In the end, killing is a very very last resort, it is also the worst choice anyone can make so they have to think long and hard on why they do it... The best thing to do is understand why you do it, understand why they do it, and each party could come to a conclusion that would not resort to killing...
If a person doesn't know why another should die, and why they themselves have to do it, I would argue that they have no sense of empathy (As I read in a previous post) and that they may continue feeling less & less empathy the more they do it.

^Could that be the reason for the soldiers in Afghanistan who are now showing up as killing Civilians for sport? You do it once, you do it twice, hell you will do it just for the rush by then... Sounds like a drug-addiction to me... Sounds like a form of escapism from reality... Until you hit rock bottom and break down...
 
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Afghan_Tourist said:
I think of killing another person like so:

Have you ever had a family member pass away? Murdered? Hurt or Disabled in a serious manner?

If you have, think back to the time when it happened, the feelings coming towards you, the despair before the eventual acceptance that what has happened cannot be changed and you have to deal with it in your own terms.

You are simply bringing about this same, often horrible, feeling onto another innocent person whome you do not know or have any connection with in any way by killing or seriously harming another human being.
Animals have emotions as well but we cannot feel them to the extent that we do with other Human Beings. It's just a species differnce type thing. You can't hear a dog pouring its heart out or feel what it felt when it loses a member of its 'pack' or 'family' ...

Killing in the name of revenge is irrational at times, in my opinion, because you will only cause the same exact feeling to be brought about back towards yourself from the group which you attack.
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I'm sorry for your loss.

Though I don't disagree with any of what you've said, there is definitely more to this issue. Otherwise killing a person with no friends/family or connections should be acceptable as there would be nobody to feel a sense of loss.
 
Everything depends on INTENT. If you see a cockroach and decide to step on it, then yes that is not right.
If you are walking to school and you step on even 100 cockroaches on the way there or any type of insect, well is that your fault. are you supposed to fly to school?

So intention is all, if you are the person who sees an insect and just leaves it alone then you have nothing to be guilty of.
 
For all we know stepping on the cockroach is the greater crime from the Earth's standpoint. Humans use, abuse, and destroy whilst rarely replenishing or even doing anything worthwhile. I think its also pretty telling how humans always have "is killing/something dying more worthwhile than XXX?" style discussions, especially the "what if the being had no family/friends?". That shit in my mind is sadistic, who cares about that sort of shit?!?
 
Cornishman said:
I dunno.

Have you ever seen an elephant grieving? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5RiHTSXK2A

+ this Dog in China. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCn-NrR0eW4
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Just saying - humans cannot directly connect with animals who mourn unless they have that sense of empathy given within them and cared for or thought about the subject...

Humans will feel another human passing away much more directly and personally than they would if say an elephant passed away. the same can be said Vice-Versa
The elephant feels it's loss, but may feel less connected to a person who may have died in the same area at the same time..

It's just the way we are built (In my opinion) .. That being said, if you have say a pet dog, and a family member who's been there with the dog it's entire life passes away, the dog will notice the difference.


I saw something very strange when my grandfather had passed away:
The entire time he was living at his house, this one cat would always come into the house during lunch/dinner and my grandfather would feed it. This was just a street cat and he regularly did this...
At his funeral, that exact same cat somehow found it's way to where my grandfather was buried (About 3 KM away)

We visited his burial site many times, every time the cat would be there in the evenings, ontop of the hill wheremy Grandfather rested...
The cat would make its way back to the house as well and still recieve food from the family...


Animals do have their own senses, I've witnessed it, It's just the average person couldn't care less about these things...
 
EEhouseEE said:
Everything depends on INTENT. If you see a cockroach and decide to step on it, then yes that is not right.
If you are walking to school and you step on even 100 cockroaches on the way there or any type of insect, well is that your fault. are you supposed to fly to school?

So intention is all, if you are the person who sees an insect and just leaves it alone then you have nothing to be guilty of.
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So killing cockroaches is fine if going an alternate route would inconvenience you? What if it were humans you were stepping on and killing? Would you still walk the same way to school? Would you go to school at all if it meant killing hundreds of people?
 
SpinOutOfControl said:
I don't differentiate between people and other creatures, I believe all life is the same.
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So if you had to choose between killing an amoeba and killing a human, you would be fine leaving it up to chance (ie flipping a coin)? Or were you talking about "intelligent" life? In which case I pose the same question, only between a human and a rabbit this time.
 
Thats a silly question though. It's not enough information for me to base a decision. So are you saying basically someone hands me a gun and puts a rabbit and a person in front of me and tells me to shoot? Thats not a realistic situation. What if that random person that I choose over the rabbit has killed people and may continue killing other people if I let him live. Its not black and white like you are posing the question. Humans are not absolutely more valuable than other beings in my mind, the value is the same.
 
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