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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Millionnaires have some more money

You can't be bothered to convince one person, or you simply can't, so what about the other hundreds of millions who roughly agree with me?

I've done a quick cost-benefit analysis and the result was I can't be bothered to convince MSB. For a start you argue against things I don't see as a solution anyway like "throwing money at the problem". You see the state and capitalism as somehow independent things, failing to realise that they are interdependent parts of the same system. You and I have opposing views but you're not putting a case against mine so I don't really need to be here. Then there's your conflation of socialism with nazism and fascism, why should I waste my time arguing points which are provocative yet lack any substantial analysis? I'd rather not.
 
MSB is Spinal Tap +1

Its ok. MSB. I'll kill myself. IRL I think its a valid philosophical point.

LOL Interwebz. Big funny joke innit.

I realise now that you are just lashing out because you lack the cognitive ability to defend what you feel. It's ok, get all that vitriol and hate you feel for the world because you are a loser out, you'll feel much better :)
 
No I'm lashing out because I've just been diagnosed with cancer you......fool.

Keep patronizing everyone on here. We all love you. I do anyway.
 
I've done a quick cost-benefit analysis and the result was I can't be bothered to convince MSB. For a start you argue against things I don't see as a solution anyway like "throwing money at the problem". You see the state and capitalism as somehow independent things, failing to realise that they are interdependent parts of the same system. You and I have opposing views but you're not putting a case against mine so I don't really need to be here. Then there's your conflation of socialism with nazism and fascism, why should I waste my time arguing points which are provocative yet lack any substantial analysis? I'd rather not.

I am not saying that all socialism is nazism, I am saying fascism and nazism is a school/branch/permeatation of socialism. It has nothing to do with capitalism, which is concerned with free markets. You should know this... It seems strange to me that if you were to make just one tenth of the excuses you make for socialist societies for capitalist societies, you would be positively infatuated with it. Perhaps I should just bottle out of this whole argument in the standard knockado fasion: "this isn't real capitalism, if it was we'd all be kings. Everything would be perfect."
 
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No I'm lashing out because I've just been diagnosed with cancer you......fool.

Keep patronizing everyone on here. We all love you. I do anyway.

O dear, I am sorry to hear that :( I thought we were just keeping up the normal tit for tat game we usually do. Are you going to be ok? Fucking hell, what terrible news.
 
^
You could at least do something about your spelling oh great one.

EDIT for MSB

And yeah Swedger, ain't it just.

Try it. No. Don't. It's not recommended.
 
I think you are being slight glass half empty about it all atm! Capitalism has also had a great deal of success. I doubt that there would be as many people on the planet now were it not for the innovations in medicine and agriculture bought about by capitalism, don't you? If it was I saying saying all the bad things that had ever occurred under socialism, and were therefore socialisms fault, people would be saying "that wasn't real socialism." I guess that would be invoking the 'no true scotsman' fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman), so I won't do that as it is a tad too easy and a little disingenuous for my liking.

I am happy to hold my hands up and say that capitalism is far from perfect, and has led to some pretty horrible outcomes for a lot of people. But it has also done an awful lot of good that I don't think socialism would have done, and I don't think socialism is or ever will be a magic bullet to any of the problems you have listed. I think the assumption that we would have public transport were it not for capitalism is a rather poor one, because we used to have better public transport (or so i'm told - at least more extensive?), but that was before most people got the opportunity given to them by capitalism to own their own car (and before capitalism resulted in our country growing by over 10 million). Now, you might say that is a bad thing because it stopped everyone being totally reliant on the state to get them from A to B, which therefore took the money away from the state and into the hands of private business. But without effective personal transport many jobs would be nigh on impossible to do, and most would take a lot more time to do as well. And that's before we get into transporting not only our own goods around, but also others goods, and tools and stuff for work. Further to this, the revenue the government get from the tax on fuel is a staggering 26.2 billion, which is over a quarter of the cost of the NHS! Now compare this to public transport, which the government has almost always made a loss on, and you can see why the situation we are in is so much better.

I think of all your examples, fuel is probably the best one to challenge. What makes you think socialism wouldn't face similar problems? (assuming you are advocating socialism in it's place). Do you think we use more fuel because global output is higher because of capitalism? If so, why don't we just go back to the dark ages and forget all about capitalism. Let's do away with all the cushyness of capitalism - lights, computers, beds etc. Let's go back to a time when the infant mortality was sky high, and the average life expectancy didn't top 30. I am of course being absurd, but my point is that it is a trade off, and I don't think humans are capable of engaging in anything whatsoever without there being some degree of greed and evil. Socialism won't remove that. On the other hand, thanks to innovation and capitalism we are looking at a future where we could well have a plethora of alternative fuels, and the main one I am interested in is nuclear fusion. This means that although capitalism took us through perhaps a few decades of turmoil in certain hot spots, it ultimately came good and provided us with unlimited clean and virtually free energy. Socialism on the other hand probably would not have innovated in such a way, or not as quickly any way, and probably would have caused equal problems the world over in their quest for fuel.

Almost all innovation starts in universities, of that i'm sure. Maybe not so much in the computer industries, but in science in general it certainly does. Most new materials, processes, discoveries etc. come from universities. I think the best example would probably be quantum physics, which started in university physics labs around the world, and has now been gradually adopted and integrated into products by entrepreneurs. Even when Apple is deciding what to make the next ipod out of, their engineers will keep draws full of composite materials and computers full of university papers to delve through to make their decisions. They don't have time to create everything from scratch, and besides that isn't their field of interest.

I think the innovation that is coming from the need to make money, no matter how hollow a motive, is going to herald an amazing technological age in the next 100 years. I'm thinking self replicating nano bots, powered by fusion, that can become anything you want them to be. I'm thinking 100% safe cars that drive themselves. Bathrooms that you walk into that can diagnose you with a multitude of diseases. The possibilities are endless, and you only have to look at how far we have come in the last century thanks to capitalism to see that. Socialism never really proved it was capable of getting anything of any real life changing ability to the consumer in the way capitalism has. Yes, like I said it has it's faults, but it is the best of a bad bunch. Let me finish by taking your ipad example. We are currently in a situation where a few people have them, and lots want them. But it's early doors. Give it 20 years and you'll be able to pick up an ipad from a local dump. You would have been saying the same thing about mobiles 20 years ago no doubt, and now even children in slums have better phones than any city banker ever had. We won't all get one by making the current ipad slightly worse, we would just end up in a situation where none of us got one, and none of us had the prospect of ever getting one. We are fast approaching the point where chips are going to be cheaper than paper!

Sorry, this was all quite disjointed and i'm guessing I missed some points you wanted addressed. I appreciate that you have managed to make your point without treating me like the reincarnation of Hitler too, thanks mate.

Firstly the number of people in the world who are hungry is difficult measure:-

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm#Number_of_hungry_people_in_the_world

You really don't seem to have read or understood what I'm saying, your suggesting that I'm, advocating Socialism I made it very clear that I view all the current political factions as anachronisms, where as you want you and many others want to carry on playing the violin whilst the cities burn to the ground.

Your glib comments on the number of people who starve to death are really quite shocking, the world produces more than enough food to feed everyone but people still starve and you pass that fact over without a second glance.

"I think competition has brought us to where we are today" yep and what a mess

"my personal preference is for a capitalist semi-libertarian society" well good for you I can't even begin to decipher that or what it means

"way too idealistic" No your just way to close minded you can't think outside of the box because your in it and don't believe anything exists outside of it.

I don't use political labels if we carry on running the world the way we do we are all fekered, pollution an war and conflict will eventually bring our downfall.

As a religious person I'm surprised your thinking is so narrow, Jesus didn't cleanse the Temple for nothing you aren't even true to your faith he knew money was evil and clearly didn't advocate the use of it.

I'm not interested in a political debate, I don't buy into any of it, I truly believe that there will either be a sea change in the way the human race functions in a spiritual sense or it will all end in war, overwhelming pollution and starvation. You can take your politics and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, it won't help when the end is nigh.

In my view most people apart from maybe a few precious few, certainly not me are effectively asleep not really seeing the full picture but as many have predicted there may come a day when we all wake up and see the world and the universe for what it is. Then we will see that we have been wasting almost all of our time creating a living hell and totally missing the point.

You clearly see this as BS but believe in the bible, I don't understand how you reconcile the tw0 neither did he charge when he carried out the miracle of the five loaves and two fish and what was his final betrayal ?

We aren't just on different pages we aren't even in the same book, the discussion is of great interest to me as I clearly have views. Its a shame its ended up with so much hatred and mud slinging but those are all products of the current system of living.
 
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As a religious person I'm surprised your thinking is so narrow, Jesus didn't cleanse the Temple for nothing you aren't even true to your faith he knew money was evil and clearly didn't advocate the use of it.

In my experience, most mainstream Christians who advocate capitalism tend to gloss over the numerous Biblical condemnations of greed and the accumulation of material wealth, in favour of focusing on the Parable of The Talents.

Which is merely an observation and not a criticism of MSB in particular, or his faith, which is ultimately his own business.
 
Firstly the number of people in the world who are hungry is difficult measure:-

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm#Number_of_hungry_people_in_the_world

You really don't seem to have read or understood what I'm saying, your suggesting that I'm, advocating Socialism I made it very clear that I view all the current political factions as anachronisms, where as you want you and many others want to carry on playing the violin whilst the cities burn to the ground.

Your glib comments on the number of people who starve to death are really quite shocking, the world produces more than enough food to feed everyone but people still starve and you pass that fact over without a second glance.

"I think competition has brought us to where we are today" yep and what a mess

"my personal preference is for a capitalist semi-libertarian society" well good for you I can't even begin to decipher that or what it means

"way too idealistic" No your just way to close minded you can't think outside of the box because your in it and don't believe anything exists outside of it.

I don't use political labels if we carry on running the world the way we do we are all fekered, pollution an war and conflict will eventually bring our downfall.

As a religious person I'm surprised your thinking is so narrow, Jesus didn't cleanse the Temple for nothing you aren't even true to your faith he knew money was evil and clearly didn't advocate the use of it.

I'm not interested in a political debate, I don't buy into any of it, I truly believe that there will either be a sea change in the way the human race functions in a spiritual sense or it will all end in war, overwhelming pollution and starvation. You can take your politics and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, it won't help when the end is nigh.

In my view most people apart from maybe a few precious few, certainly not me are effectively asleep not really seeing the full picture but as many have predicted there may come a day when we all wake up and see the world and the universe for what it is. Then we will see that we have been wasting almost all of our time creating a living hell and totally missing the point.

You clearly see this as BS but believe in the bible, I don't understand how you reconcile the tw0 neither did he charge when he carried out the miracle of the five loaves and two fish and what was his final betrayal ?

We aren't just on different pages we aren't even in the same book, the discussion is of great interest to me as I clearly have views. Its a shame its ended up with so much hatred and mud slinging but those are all products of the current system of living.

I deliberately tried not to sound glib, and pointed out that the number of people who die of starvation is unaccetpable. Even if it was 1 person it would be unacceptable. I was saying that our power to do anything about it is severely limited. We aren't just not doing anything because we care about money more than people. Where a state doesn't stand in our way, like say North Korea, we get food in there. If we wanted to help N.K it would require an all out total war, which would not end well. It doesn't matter if you reject the labels of political science, because your answers to the problems are still firmly socialist in nature. That is just the way that it is. If I advocate extreme nationalism and murdering jews and minorities, along with other things of course, that makes me a Nazi/fascist, whether I call myself that or not.

I don't think I am being closed minded in thinking that everyone waking up tomorrow, and there being some sort of spiritual enlightenment that simultaneously changes everyone into saints, is highly highly unlikely. Unless of course this is provoked by nuclear war, God, a higher power, a prophet, or something equally massive. I also don't think that my lack of belief in this happening any time while I am alive has any bearing on whether it will actually happen.

With regard to my faith and how that gels with supporting a system based on money, the point is that it is a love of money over God that seperates you from God. This is a problem for the indiviidual to ponder at his or her own discretion, not me on their behalf. If everyone behaved with love like Jesus, and in the Christian way, money wouldn't be a problem or create problems.

I don't mean to sound arrogant but we have had doom predictors for the last 200 years, and instead all we have seen is the world get progressively better for the majority of the world's population. It is my suspicion that this will just keep on happening, with hiccups along the way that convince you of your world view (despite the fact you 'can see the bigger picture'). If it doesn't pan out this way I am sceptical about my power to do anything about it...
 
We may well have had "predictors for the last 200 years" , which isn't even the blink of an eye in real terms but 200 years ago we didn't have the ability to destroy the word of a country at the touch of a button,we didn't have the massive financial system we have today, that is failing in such a spectacular manner.

Again you are not reading what I am writing I did not say I 'can see the bigger picture' infcat if you took the care to read you would se that I said the opposite.

"I don't think I am being closed minded in thinking that everyone waking up tomorrow, and there being some sort of spiritual enlightenment that simultaneously changes everyone into saints, is highly highly unlikely."

Please explain how you know how likely that is, since it would be a singular event there is no possible way to tell how likely it is, but I'd be be interested in your assertion that it is " highly highly unlikely"

You, like most Christians I have met, bearing in mind I was brought up as a Christian and went to a C of E school for 4 years seem to want a "pick a mix" version of the Bible.

Am I not talking about something similar to the Last Judgment ? :-


When the Son of Man comes in His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats, and He will set the sheep on His right hand but the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.” ... “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My Brethren, you did it to me.”


"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.” ... “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."(Matthew 25:31-36, 40-43, 45-46 NRSV)


These words are from your doctrine, I have none, do you not believe in them or the promise of the second coming and the day of judgment? Surely this would have some significant parallels to the awakening of which I speak ?
 
We may well have had "predictors for the last 200 years" , which isn't even the blink of an eye in real terms but 200 years ago we didn't have the ability to destroy the word of a country at the touch of a button,we didn't have the massive financial system we have today, that is failing in such a spectacular manner.

Again you are not reading what I am writing I did not say I 'can see the bigger picture' infcat if you took the care to read you would se that I said the opposite.

"I don't think I am being closed minded in thinking that everyone waking up tomorrow, and there being some sort of spiritual enlightenment that simultaneously changes everyone into saints, is highly highly unlikely."

Please explain how you know how likely that is, since it would be a singular event there is no possible way to tell how likely it is, but I'd be be interested in your assertion that it is " highly highly unlikely"

You, like most Christians I have met, bearing in mind I was brought up as a Christian and went to a C of E school for 4 years seem to want a "pick a mix" version of the Bible.

Am I not talking about something similar to the Last Judgment ? :-


When the Son of Man comes in His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats, and He will set the sheep on His right hand but the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.” ... “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My Brethren, you did it to me.”


"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.” ... “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."(Matthew 25:31-36, 40-43, 45-46 NRSV)


These words are from your doctrine, I have none, do you not believe in them or the promise of the second coming and the day of judgment? Surely this would have some significant parallels to the awakening of which I speak ?

How likely do I think this is to happen? Hmmm. About as likely as a zombie outbreak. I do not concievably see what will make everyone wake up with their free will vaporised, all thinking the same thing. Even on judgement day this won't happen... I know that the bible asks us to help our fellow man, I haven't denied this. What I have denied is our ability to help every man right now, unless of course the entire human race wakes up one day like you say... We should help those who we can, and strive to help those who we can't.

I find it hard to tell what will happen at the end of days. I don't know if heaven will be on earth, or whether the non-believers will be left on earth not knowing or feeling God's love, or what.
 
MSB seems central to your belief that humans can only be motivated by greed. Personally I think that most of the examples given are morally disgusting when looked at in context of the world's biggest problems. The phone example - I agree kids in all the working class estates have better phones than bankers did X amount of years ago, and most likely if it were not for the highly motivated entrepreneurial people working for the phone companies competing for your contract this 'trickle down' effect would not have happened. But I ask - who cares? The big inventions that have helped us for the better in recent times are (fairly undisputedly I think);

Plumbing

&

Antibiotics

Now were do you stand on the innovation of these? Would they have been invited outside of a model of Capitalism?

The most important discoveries are made by Science (of all types including humanitarian.) The drive created by Capitalism only tap's in to the desire to create something that is rewarded within this model (must tick certain boxes, i.e. can it be sold? marketed etc)

This does effect the science's - your most likely to get funding for research which benefits this model. Compare a Biologist-

a. getting funding to study planktons group dynamics

b. getting funding to study how to increase their replication



I think this is why the phrase 'thinking outside the box' gets thrown about so much by us lefties. Many of us believe that we are all operating under a sick model, it a poison that has seeped into each and everyone of us to varying degree's. It is the ideology of the world we live in, and has it is all we have ever known it is hard to imagine any different or indeed, appreciate just how deep its influence runs, and I think this is why so many get angry when it is defended as being 'human nature'. Of course this assumption that we are only motivated by greed supports this model, so I would be extremely cautious of such assumptions.

Another example;
As Scottish journalist Isabel Hilton put it, it is more profitable for multinational pharmaceutical companies to cure “diseases of affluence and longevity—heart disease, cancer, Alzheimers.” For this reason, diseases affecting much of the world’s population aren’t well addressed by the majority of medical research. For example, according to a paper published in Health Affairs, of 1,556 new drugs approved between 1975-2004, only 21 (1.3%) targeted tropical diseases that affect 15% of the world. This contributes to what the Global Forum for Health Research calls the 10/90 gap, the uncomfortable observation that only 10% of medical research addresses 90% of the world’s problems.
http://www.yalemedlaw.com/2011/04/the-growth-of-international-pharmaceuticals/
 
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A business model text book looks and the factory line work and only seems one thing - how to maximise profit. Workers rights may be taken into equation if it enhances profit but not under any other circumstances. Unless it there is a relationship between profit & workers rights, the rights are an irrelevance and in practice a hindrance to it (workers in factories today are in less danger from faulty machinery but there work is every bit as fragmented and repetitious as it ever was.) An old Sociology text book I have looks at work not from the capitalistic model or from a socialist one but simply from a more natural perspective. It reads completely differently, workers rights are now a big part of the equation, not because its coming from one model in particular but because its not coming from such a blinkered one.

Even if you are criticising this model it does not necessarily mean your point is void unless you are advocating a replacement, the simplest solution to a lot of problems is simply to stop participating in it (stop buying so much shit). If you think capitalism is still the good guy because these people would be out of work otherwise then I believe that this is proof that this ideology has wrapped itself so strongly around you that you are blind. It’s like when I point out all the flaws in the education system because there is 1 teacher to every 20 kids and the standard reply is that the demand is elsewhere and that healthy competition has deemed it so. This is further proof to me of how deeply this ideology runs in all of us, that most people see it as normal that the demand lies in consumption (be it consumption of technology (computer programmer) material (construction of a bigger house), both (factory worker for the latest sony shit) or simply a managerial job (mostly a link in a chain that there shouldn't be a demand for) I’d happily trade 90% of technology for a 1 to 5 teaching ratio.
 
People accept anything that's presented to them as 'science' nowadays, so horribly-perverted 'Darwinism' is the usual stock justification for the status quo.

The rising tide that lifts all boats, eh? ;)
 
How likely do I think this is to happen? Hmmm. About as likely as a zombie outbreak. I do not concievably see what will make everyone wake up with their free will vaporised, all thinking the same thing. Even on judgement day this won't happen... I know that the bible asks us to help our fellow man, I haven't denied this. What I have denied is our ability to help every man right now, unless of course the entire human race wakes up one day like you say... We should help those who we can, and strive to help those who we can't.

I find it hard to tell what will happen at the end of days. I don't know if heaven will be on earth, or whether the non-believers will be left on earth not knowing or feeling God's love, or what.

I know you can read so I'm not going to question that ability but can you answer a simple question ?? it seems not:-

"Please explain how you know how likely that is, since it would be a singular event there is no possible way to tell how likely it is, but I'd be be interested in your assertion that it is " highly highly unlikely"

You seem to like to pick and choose what you answer and what you don't, what parts of Christianity you believe in and what you don't as and when it suits, its not Woolworths.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells

^^^

This is the stuff you claim to believe in but my suggestions are met with contempt and utter disbelief that they could ever occur, please explain why that is, I am quite familiar with the Bible so, as you know ther are many more quotes at least as extreme as this if not more so.
 
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