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How toxic is Mephedrone?

sackynut said:
there is a cross tolerance with MDMA and MDA, but it doesnt seem as large as one would expect. plus how often, and long youve been doing mephedrone plays a roll. the longer you expend that serotonin the lesser effect of other enactogens will be.
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that can't be true because MDMA and MDA don't have a cross tolerance between each other. technically they do but very, very little - negligible. mda releases a good bit of DA and 5HT via 5HT2a whereas mdma is much more selective as it does not release nearly as much DA and is primarily active with 5HT3. yes they are active with a number of different 5HT receptors but generally speaking mda focuses on DA/5HT2a and mdma focuses on 5HT3. the negligible cross tolerance will be from the 7-10% of mdma that is demethylated to mda by your body and the small amount of shared DA/5HT activity. for all intents and purposes they are not cross tolerant.

does anyone have the ki values for 4mmc? that would explain which mdxx that 4mmc shares cross tolerance with. i think that any cross tolerance with 4mmc wouldn't be all that much, not as much as stronger 5HT releasers anyway
 
poopstation said:
that can't be true because MDMA and MDA don't have a cross tolerance between each other. technically they do but very, very little - negligible. mda releases a good bit of DA and 5HT via 5HT2a whereas mdma is much more selective as it does not release nearly as much DA and is primarily active with 5HT3. yes they are active with a number of different 5HT receptors but generally speaking mda focuses on DA/5HT2a and mdma focuses on 5HT3. the negligible cross tolerance will be from the 7-10% of mdma that is demethylated to mda by your body and the small amount of shared DA/5HT activity. for all intents and purposes they are not cross tolerant.
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where did you get the information that MDMA is selective for 5-ht3 receptors? I think you are completely wrong, especially given the propensity of 5-HT3 agonists to cause spectacular emesis.

MDMA releases serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine and this has nothing to do with the limited 5ht2a agonism it has (n-alkyl amphetamines have much lower 5ht2a activity than the corresponding primary amine). Instead it is mediated through its effects on the phosphorylation and reversal of the monoamine transporters (MAT) SERT NERT and DAT which leads to monoamines being dumped into the synapse as well as the vesicular transporter VMAT which results in monoamines being dumped into the cytosol.

finally despite the internet lore that is derived from Shulgins statements there is also cross tolerance between MDA and MDMA, there is peer reviewed literature supporting this, this makes sense, given MDA also effects the MAT system, it is probably true though that the R enantiomer of MDA is not cross tolerant with S MDMA. (It is thought that the psychedelic activity of MDA resides mostly in the R enantiomer and the entactogenic activity of MDMA is primarily found in the S enantiomer)

I suggest you go read up on the pharmacology of MDA and MDMA wikipedia is a good start.
 
vektor i enjoy your posts however i will most certainly disagree with you sir.

mdma and mda share very little cross tolerance, as i said it is negligible. i say this from years of personal experience. i have a massive tolerance to mdma but very low tolerance to mda due to how much i use one more than the other. i've done blind studies with friends that led me to believe a cross tolerance is not shared. IE: they will be given mdma and over time a large tolerance is acquired. give them mda and this tolerance is not present.

one friend of mine in particular (not part of the blind study mentioned above, this is by his own doing) took mdma multiple days a week for several weeks to the point of needing very large amounts of mdma (upwards of 600mg per session) even for mydriasis, yes i realize how ridiculous this is. then he began to take mda at 100mg and he very obviously had no tolerance to mda. he had mydriasis and reported strong physical euphoria, mild OEV's and CEV's, he had a typical mda experience at a typical dosage for someone who no tolerance.

i'm telling you from lots of personal experience, any cross tolerance between mdma and mda is very very slim.
 
^ Interesting, I speak from back in the day when high quality MDA was around (when a certain former Soviet pharma company was making MDA) and many people reported cross tolerance with 'ecstacy' whatever that contained, though I would have though at the time most ecstacy was mostly MDMA. People described ecstacy (MDMA) effects after MDA as being reduced, though bizarrely maybe this does happen the other way around.
 
you are sure that ecstacy was mainly mdma? what I heared is that most pills of those days were always a good mixture out of mdma and mda
 
^most pills are NOT a mix of MDMA and MDA. most hardly even have more than 50mg of MDMA in them
edit: but back in the day they had much more MDMA, and MDA in pills was much more prevalent.
MDA and MDMA do infact share cross tolerance. they both work similarly but i believe MDA has higher affinity for serotonin. PLus, MDA seems to also directly (rather than indirectly through release ala MDMA) affect the 5-ht2a receptors as well. thus giving it its pronounced psychedelic properties.

so if you subjectively found no cross tolerance, its most likely because A. chill out on taking so much MDXX and B. youre still getting high from those psychedlic receptors from MDA, giving you a nice high regardless of MDMA use.

however their main enactogenic and stimulating qualities definitely share cross tolerance.
 
jspun:
thanks alot for the informations, but are you serious with that: "you might be alright but I see best case ending up in the hospital with your valves replaced"? i dont know, but i dont think i have used that much mephedrone in my life. i have used about 4g during the last 4 months (200-300mg per session). that is almost nothing compared to some other people on this forums. do you really think that such "tiny" amount can destroy my heart valves permanently?
second thing is that i will be thankfull if you explain me some facts about the toxicity:
- about the mechanism mephedrone is damaging heart valves - i have thought that it should be something on the same basis as the Fen-phen toxicity, but you are talking about some auto-immune type of damage, is this the same thing?
- if not, than throught what mechanism is the mephedrone causing the auto-immune damage you are talking about? and what are the clues supporting this theory?
- if it were true, than will the auto-immune disease show on blood-tests? and will the damage to the heart show on ECG? is there some type of examination that will definitly show if i have done some damage to me or not?
thanks a lot
oh, and one more thing - i have searched throught these forums but they are too large to read everything - i would be interested if there are some posts here from someone who has used mephedrone heavily for a long time and then (after he stopped), he went to some detailed medical examination? i think this could provide very usefull informations about the potential type and seriousness of the mephedrone toxicity.

to answer your question now - i definitely prefer the high from MDMA to that from mephedrone. the euphoria is better and the empathy is much stronger on MDMA than on mephedrone. however, MDMA is unavailible to me now, so i use the mephedrone, which when used orally (250 mg) gives me euphoria comparable to lower doses of MDMA (like 150mg maybe) with less empathy and much more mental stimulation (race of thoughts). i am also more talkative after mephedrone (which is perfect for discussions with friends), but the physical stimulation is much weaker (i have absolutely no urge to dance, etc). music is also better on MDMA than on mephedrone.
to the coke, honestly i dont thing i have ever had a good quality coke, because it was always quite weak (no rushes of euphoria like on MDMA or mephedrone, etc.). so i definitely prefer a good line of mephedrone (like 125 mg) than a line of coke.

at the end of your post you have writen to search medical attention if: "Any dizziness, fainting, sortness of breath, chest pain, skipped beats, racing heart, spiking a temp, or feelings of impending doom" is felt. what do these conditions mean? i have had this one time after my third (125mg) line of mephedrone, when i combined it with about 4 red-bulls. 10 min after the third line i started to feel very weak and dizzy, i started to see black and with every breath i felt weaker and weaker. i started to puke after that because of the extreme dizzynes probably. after that i measured my heart rate and it was about 130, which i belived is not so bad, so i let it be and went home.
 
vecktor said:
People described ecstacy (MDMA) effects after MDA as being reduced, though bizarrely maybe this does happen the other way around.
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this makes sense to me as MDA is a potent halucinogen (besides its releasing properties) where as MDMA relies mostly on catecholamine release.
 
I know this is a pretty huge bump but I have a relevant piece of information to add.

Now that meph is pretty much illegal everywhere (since Oct 2011 in the states at least) analogues are coming out. I myself have a sample of M1M/B2, rumored to be very close to mephedrone both in chemical structure & effects. I have no experience with authentic mephedrone for what it is worth.

After doing a little more than half a gram in a session last week, I noticed the skin on the inside of my mouth peeling (gums, lips) over the next day. I thought at the time that maybe I had just had something to eat that was too hot and didn't remember it. However for the areas that were peeling this didn't make sense, as there was no affected area on the roof of my mouth at all.

It is concerning to read that other users have had this reaction as well. I did take most of my dose orally in water which may have contributed. Either way, be careful with this stuff. I didn't take much at all and I still had my skin falling off.
 
I hypothised before meph doesnt cause vasoconstriction as hospitals didnt find any issue; its probably some form of drug induced lupus witch meph and co cause
 
I'm sorry I didn't get back to you earlier ebola,

the compound is undisclosed so far for fear of being scheduled. The website it came from says it is a "Propylhexedrine analogue (3,4-methdioxy variant)"

Other reports I've read online of it relate its effects very closely to mephedrone.

MeDieViL: drug induced lupus sounds fantastic!
 
Can someone with more chemistry knowledge than I comment on whether sticking a 3,4-methylene dioxy on a cyclohexane group would even make sense? Given the geometry of cyclohexane, where would the MD even stick out toward? If the drop in potency is analogous to methamp----->mdma, I don't see this compound being viable anyway.

ebola
 
Mephedrone caused long-term muscular contractions in my lower abdominal area, thighs, lower back, knees, and hips that has been going on for 7 months. I still cannot have a normal sex life, cannot ride a bike anymore, and cannot sit down without having pain.

This shit fucked me over more than any other drug I have done. I have done many drugs, but nothing that has left me in so much physical and emotional pain. Cathinones are not only over-rated but has been the one class of drugs that has caused me the most problems. I got sucked in like the rest of you but now I have to see intense acupuncture + trigger point physical therapy every week that is not only expensive ($120 per session) but is going to take up to a year to complete recover from (=over $5000 in physical therapy this year). My pain is getting better, there is no doubt it is completely muscular. Cheap drugs online worth it? NO FUCKING WAY. WATCH YOUR STEP
 
simstimstar said:
UPDATE - Also, of the two MDPV feels much safer on the body, but the euphoria is only a fraction of that from 4-mmc, and for some the anxiety is unbearable. I have seen people take one hit smoking MDPV and get up and leave the house because of panic attack.
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So, are you saying that mdpv is even more euphoric than meph? I've never taken mdpv, but it's hard to believe.

About the 'drone damage, most of the things i'm hearing here sound pretty scary. A very sporadic usage (like 8-10 times per year with 400mg consumed per session at most) could cause any of the health problems above listed?
 
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Velvet cacoon said:
So, are you saying that mdpv is even more euphoric than meph? I've never taken mdpv, but it's hard to believe.

About the 'drone damage, most of the things i'm hearing here sound pretty scary. A very sporadic usage (like 8-10 times per year with 400mg consumed per session at most) could cause any of the health problems above listed?
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I think so. I only used mephedrone like 8 times starting at 350mg a session and ending a pretty crazy 1000mg a session and ended up with long-term muscular damage. See my post above. I think people who want to do drugs are going to filter most of the people like me out and see the crazy ass users who got away with it all almost and be like ya, mephedrone is fine or just as safe as MDMA. It is clearly not.
 
dimensiontripping said:
I think so. I only used mephedrone like 8 times starting at 350mg a session and ending a pretty crazy 1000mg a session and ended up with long-term muscular damage. See my post above. I think people who want to do drugs are going to filter most of the people like me out and see the crazy ass users who got away with it all almost and be like ya, mephedrone is fine or just as safe as MDMA. It is clearly not.
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And why do you relate those damages with the mephedrone consumptions? Do you have any proof?

It's difficult to believe that isolated and responsible uses (although 1gr a session isn't) lead to permanent damages. If so, that means thousands of people with health problems now or in the future. I don't see that, just in the case of abuses.

Same things have been said about MDMA and other more famous compounds and the reality has yield quite different results.
 
Velvet cacoon said:
And why do you relate those damages with the mephedrone consumptions? Do you have any proof?

It's difficult to believe that isolated and responsible uses (although 1gr a session isn't) lead to permanent damages. If so, that means thousands of people with health problems now or in the future. I don't see that, just in the case of abuses.

Same things have been said about MDMA and other more famous compounds and the reality has yield quite different results.
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The only proof I have is that I did 1g of mephedrone in a session and 2 days later, when I had sex it was extremely painful post -orgasm. I spent months trying to figure the issue out after being misdiagnosed with prostate infection, chrons disease, and was finally diagnosed with myofascial pain in my pelvic floor and lower abdomen. I was completely healthy young adult male. There is no reason this would have happened normally. it has been 7 months and I have abstained from using mephedrone since then and continue to have this issue but is slowly going away. You want a medical record? I dont have that. do doctors understand mephedrone? no. Do I have personal evidence that this is caused by mephedrone, hell ya. I know you are trying to filter people who are complaining and two issues may be unrelated but I know this are completely related. Mephedrone caused my long-term muscular damage. Simple as that.
 
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