• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Speed/Meth tolerance prevention/reduction [long]

*BUMP*!

This is a good thread..

I'm wondering how some of you have been doing with this.

I take dexedrine daily (almost daily), and although the tolerance is NOTHING near as bad as Adderall was, it still sucks.

I was trying the dextromethorphan thing, like 30mg twice a day, then i guess i got sick of putting the stuff in capsules/measuring and stopped.

But I just lately got a 'bulk' thing of l-theanine, and have been taking that at least once if not 2-3 times a day or whenever i take dex. Also almost daily but not quite, a big magnesium/calcium pill.

Also while I was going to order l-theanine online anyway, I wanted to get some Aniracetam powder, because I do like the effect piracetam is doing (seems to potentiate amphetamines, aniracetam too). Also while "there" i grabbed some l-carnitine which i've been taking "just for the fuck of it, its good for me so why not" along with sometimes if i feel like capping up a capsule of Alpha Lipoic Acid.

Now, I am not sure if its the combination of things lately, but.. anyway, I started taking amisulpride (about 50mg/day) a couple weeks or so ago, and just the last few days been taking the mao-a inhibitor moclobemide (actually was used to potentiate a mushroom trip, and experiment with other tryptamines, but just ended up taking 150mg or so a day, maybe sometimes 2 tabs/300mg). I've noticed my sleep has improved, usually its real hard for me to fall asleep, and then, real hard to wake up (dex!). Lately I haven't needed much dexedrine compared to before, if any really "needed" at all, but i'll just go on but notice i'll get tired at better times, and easily dose off. Usually after just a few hours of sleep, or 6-7hrs, i'm good, and I wake right up without the need to pop a dex. Usually, once i do fall asleep, i can sleep for SO long, and its hard to wake up.. not lately.

Also I wanted to know if there is a certain amount of l-theanine that is "good" for this? If it helps prevent tolerance, after you take some how long does this effect last? I've just been putting a sorta random amount in a capsule, anywhere from 100-300mg when i take it, less if i take it more than once a day (less meaning around 100mg), usually a bit while before i take any dexedrine (if any at all, i just take it anyway).

I know the amisulpride is probably giving me some 'energy' and motivation, and that may be the main reason, might be finally really 'kicking in' who knows. Also I do know that after taking piracetam for a while (I already had an old big bulk amount of that, which i thought was useless until i kept taking it daily) i've noticed what thats doing up there in the ol' head, and I like aniracetam too, and know that probably has something to do with the extra energy. I notice the dexedrine lasts longer and dont really notice it 'come down' suddenly like before, just kinda slowly lingers/wears off i guess.

Anyway I highly recommend the 'racetams! I thought they were useless til lately. Even such things as, my eyes focusing on an object from near to far is like twice as fast. My memory and coming up with what to say, its like snap, faster than I can get it out. My internal mental image/"movie" of a memory is nice and vivid and clear, all senses vision/hearing/the wind blowing/how i felt is all nice and clear. Without dexedrine I have much better focus than normal, "faster mind" and "easier access" to ..more areas of the brain. Easier "access" to the right side where i can bring out more creativity when needed. Wierd shit, i like it hehe.

Anyway this is a good thread, noticed nothing has been posted in it in a while, and its probably just floating along down not being seen anymore..
 
for us recreational speed users, would I want to just take some DXM or such medicines just before any uses, or is it something that I would have to maintain constantly?
 
toolazy2think said:
for us recreational speed users, would I want to just take some DXM or such medicines just before any uses, or is it something that I would have to maintain constantly?


You don't want to take any DXM with speed.

Only thing worth considering to take with speed is maybe magnesium citrate/capsules.
to reduce some of the neurotoxic effects, slow tolerance kinda.


Other then that.....some people are just mixing way to many medications lately at once. They can/do conflict with eachother regardless of what there labeled "purpose" is.
 
I also enjoy amphetamines, but worry about neurotoxicity. Hence, I take methylphenidate for ADD, instead of Adderall. I have read about (from many of the articles cited in this thread) the tolerance-preventing effects of NMDA receptor antagonists. The issue of NMDA receptor antagonism preventing amphetamine-mediated dopaminergic neurotoxicity, however, has not really been addressed. Since the putative pathway for DA neurotoxicity is increased intracellular oxidation of DA to quinone species (which might interfere with the cellular cytochrome c oxidative phosphorylation chain), I don't seem how an NMDA receptor antagonist would help in this situation. That is, if the cellular damage is not Ca++ dependent and is ameliorated by DA reuptake transporter blockers.

However, if I could have my cake and eat it too: take (d)-amphetamine and prevent neurotoxicity, I would be very happy. (D)-amphetamine lasts much longer than methylphenidate for ADD. I already have to take 3 of the bloody little Ritalin pills per day. (D)-amphetamine is also more fun recreationally.

PS: What is the PCP2 receptor? I have heard this mentioned in papers and always thought that it was bullshit. PCP has significant affinity for the NMDA pore (the PCP1 receptor of old) and the dopamine reuptake transporter (the PCP2 receptor?), which dextromethorphan (but not dextrorphan) also binds to at high enough concentrations.
 
Riemann Zeta said:
I also enjoy amphetamines, but worry about neurotoxicity. Hence, I take methylphenidate for ADD, instead of Adderall. I have read about (from many of the articles cited in this thread) the tolerance-preventing effects of NMDA receptor antagonists. The issue of NMDA receptor antagonism preventing amphetamine-mediated dopaminergic neurotoxicity, however, has not really been addressed. Since the putative pathway for DA neurotoxicity is increased intracellular oxidation of DA to quinone species (which might interfere with the cellular cytochrome c oxidative phosphorylation chain), I don't seem how an NMDA receptor antagonist would help in this situation. That is, if the cellular damage is not Ca++ dependent and is ameliorated by DA reuptake transporter blockers.

However, if I could have my cake and eat it too: take (d)-amphetamine and prevent neurotoxicity, I would be very happy. (D)-amphetamine lasts much longer than methylphenidate for ADD. I already have to take 3 of the bloody little Ritalin pills per day. (D)-amphetamine is also more fun recreationally.

PS: What is the PCP2 receptor? I have heard this mentioned in papers and always thought that it was bullshit. PCP has significant affinity for the NMDA pore (the PCP1 receptor of old) and the dopamine reuptake transporter (the PCP2 receptor?), which dextromethorphan (but not dextrorphan) also binds to at high enough concentrations.


isnt the entire structure, and how it works different with ritalin - compared to the amphetamines.
and also, in the same effect is potentialy more toxic? (or am i getting confused due to the fact there is a billion anti-ritalin sites, and really none for d-amphetamine heh-
 
Ritalin is a bulky N-substituted phenethylamine, meaning its large size does not allow it to act as a substrate for the monoamine transporters (and thus it cannot enter the neuron). Basically, this means that ritalin blocks the reuptake of neuronal dopamine without inducing release via 'reverse transport' through the dopamine transporter. Without supraphysiological concentrations of dopamine released and subsequently taken back up, there is less oxidative stress on the cell (fewer reactive oxygen species, like quinones, are formed). Several articles have been published concerning the neurotoxic potential of ritalin, however, none have found any toxic effects. In fact, reuptake blockers like ritalin and bupropion block the neurotoxic effects of (d)-amphetamine and meth. For your reading pleasure:

Sandoval, et al (2003). J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 304(3): 1181-7.

Kim, et al (2000). J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 293(2): 625-33.

Yuan, et al (1997). Brain Res. 767(1): 172-5.

Zaczek, et al (1989). Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 100(2): 227-33.

From the Yuan, et al (1997) article:

To further evaluate the dopamine (DA) neurotoxic potential of the widely prescribed psychostimulant, methylphenidate, mice were treated with various doses (range: 10-120 mg/kg) and treatment schedules of methylphenidate (every 2 h x 4 or twice daily x 4). Higher doses of methylphenidate produced intense stereotypy, as well as short- (5-day), but not long- (2-week), term depletions of striatal DA axonal markers. By contrast, amphetamine caused not only intense stereotypy, but also profound, long-lasting, dose-related DA deficits. These findings indicate that results of studies of amphetamine neurotoxicity using short (5-day) post-drug survival periods are potentially misleading. Further, the present findings confirm and extend previous results indicating that methylphenidate, unlike amphetamine, lacks DA neurotoxic potential, and strongly suggest that DA efflux, although perhaps necessary, is not sufficient for the expression of amphetamine-induced DA neurotoxicity.
 
qyestion: so can i take 100mg DXM and expect no tolerance to meth the next day? Or do I have to set out some DXM dosing schedual?

My tolerance is making it expensive from a recreational standpoint.
 
My question after all this is- does it matter when or what order you take these tolerance preventing supplements? Would you take them before, after, or just split up during the day as if you weren't taking any amphetamine product? I ask this because I am thinking about supplementing my Adderall use with Magnesium and l-theanine and was wondering how to integrate them into my Adderall dosing schedule. PS. I am also speaking with my doc about changing to dexedrine instead of Adderall as well.
 
This is information all seems really good but I can't comprehend it can someone break it down for me? Also I take and SSRI so I guess I can't take DXM. Will taking that other stuff instead work, or is the amount of DXM needed small enough that I can still take it with my SSRI? And then I should pick one of those other things like magnesium etc.? Somebody please help me I am very confused but I think I need to know this information. Thank you!!
 
Ohyeah

I also have one more question do you take this stuff on a regular basis like once every morning or whenever you are using?
 
Re: Ohyeah

Cloud Hidden said:
I also have one more question do you take this stuff on a regular basis like once every morning or whenever you are using?

Only when you are using amphetamine.
 
As far as smart drugs and amphetamine tolerance:

Vinpocetine (while not a direct NMDA antagonist) could also prevent amphetamine tolerance, as it has been shown to decrease pathologically high levels of Ca in neurons (Neurochem Res 2001 Sep;26(8-9):1095-100), thus preventing excess Ca flow to NMDA receptors.

Another interesting possibility is Huperzine A, which while increasing levels of dopamine and norepinephrine (J Neurosci Res. 1995 Aug 15;41(6):828-35) also acts as a NMDA receptor antagonist (Neuroscience. 2001;105(3):663-9).

Also there are anectodes that zinc and vit.b6 help with tolerance too. But I haven't read any studies proving that, only people's opinions.
 
Riemann Zeta said:


PS: What is the PCP2 receptor? I have heard this mentioned in papers and always thought that it was bullshit. PCP has significant affinity for the NMDA pore (the PCP1 receptor of old) and the dopamine reuptake transporter (the PCP2 receptor?), which dextromethorphan (but not dextrorphan) also binds to at high enough concentrations.

just to answer your question, i believe the pcp receptors = dopamine receptors and really have nothing to do with the drug PCP
 
i just wanted to follow up on the subject of DXM and amphetamines. it's been my XP that a recommended dose of cough syrup, the only active ingredient being DXM, taken with 90mg XR adderall are as follows:

-much smoother onset, more of a ramp than a rocket

-more mentally stimulating and less physically stimulating

-greatly reduced negative side effects(rapid pulse, rebound effect after dosage wears off) and condition of user less obvious to the outside world

-x-ray vision

i wish.

anyway, overall i am very pleased with the results of the combination. i plan on adding calcium and magnesium to my regimine as well.
 
I find it best to just stay away from speed. But people are going to do it no matter what. Hence the point of this website and this VERY INFORMATIVE thread. Thank you for the post.
 
I hate to drudge up an old thread, but I recently switched from methylphenidate 10 mg TID for ADD to enantiopure (d)-amphetamine 30 mg Spansule (R) qAM and would like to keep discussing the latest research surrounding amphetamine neurotoxicity, as it is quite a concern of mine. I also take vinpocetine 5-10 mg qD and piracetam 1600 mg qD, as well as a broad-spectrum multivitamin. As for other pharms, I take venlaxfaxine (Effexor XR) 150 mg qD and bupropion (Wellbutrin) 450 mg qD. I am have read research that DA reuptake inhibitors like bupropion can prevent amphetamine neurotoxicity, but a priori, one would think a DA reuptake inhibitor would also reduce the effect of the amphetamine, right?
 
Bump!

Bump...I'd like to know if anyone has anything new to add to this thread...What about other nootropics, etc? Does anyone have any experience with combining amphetamines with something else and finding a good interaction? Any studies pertaining to this topic would also be interesting...thanks
 
Long amphetamine discussion. I forgot about until recently.. and started to edit it. adding useful links.
Links to very extensive studies, and great information from advanced knowledge and experiences.
Amphetamine Tolerance/prevention/effects etc. - Links to studies

The best one i have read was the link on
Neuropsychopharmacology, Chronic Amphetamine Use and Abuse article.
ill add it in a few when i get back. its on the above post.. i think thats the name.
 
So if i were taking bupropion along with my adderall i wouldn't have to worry about tolerance or does bupropion just protect against neurotoxicity? Because i have a whole bottle of Wellbutrin that i never used because my doctor thought it would help for my ADHD, but i knew it wouldn't do jack shit, so i just got a new doctor and now i am on Adderall...
So if that Wellbutrin would be useful in preventing tolerance and/or neurotoxicity, that would be awesome because I will probly just throw it away otherwise.
 
so taking dxm with amphetamines reduces tolerance and toxicity while taking dxm with mdma increases toxicity?
 
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