• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Phenylpiperidine Opioids - how low can you go?

If you prefer, I am more than willing to undertake the experiment, myself, to verify. Such as spiking eugenol samples with white phosphorus, which I can prepare with little difficulty, from the 2kg reagent grade (sigma) RP, and treating with the OTC concentrations of H2O2 I can find quickly, 3,6,9 and possibly 12% aqueous H2O2, although it is stabilized with phenacetin and phosphoric acid, the last of course would need removal by precipitation of the calcium salt.

But you wish such correlation via direct spiking and assay attempts for willy pete?
 
Guys, as far as my question regarding HNO3, it WASN'T regarding organic nitration. But a means to prepare copper nitrate, without a contaminating sodium or potassium cation, as the copper is intended for a catalytic purpose. Had been doing it with mixed nitrate salt (NaNO3) and sulfuric, to generate HNO3 in-situ.

But of course, the cleaner, the better, and less farting about with extraneous stuff having to be cleaned after roasting the nitrate to produce copper oxide to convert to CuCl2, recycling the NOx to reclaim my nitrate salt or reclaim it as HNO3, depending on whether or not a solution of sodium bicarbonate is used in the Dreschel bottles (one empty, interposed, to prevent suckback) or H2O alone. That being a secondary consideration based on atom economy and my tendencies to recycle and find new uses for old side products wherever feasible without loss of quality control.

I'm not entirely sure, as to the structure of the catalyst in question, generated by in-situ reduction of CuCl2 in aqueous solution added to isopropanolic sodium borohydride, there is no doubt the system is being utilized, by others, to reduce C3 nitroalkanes to aminoalkanes after borohydride reduction of nitroalkenes to the nitroalkane, with excess NaBH4 to prevent that parasitic (and rather incestuous) Michael addition between substrate nitroaliphatic and it's parent nitroalkene.

The second step has been said to be copper nanoparticles, but to me, it seems an awful lot like the technique used in preparation of binary metal borides, such as Ni2B, in a sort of hybrid version between P1 and P2 type dinickel boride (P1 is more active, prepared in alcoholic media, P2 is less active, using aqueous solution, both via borohydride reduction of a nickel salt, NiCl2 is used by some, but a preferable alternative is to use the acetate in the case of nickel boride. Same processes used to make cobalt boride, so, I can't help but question, whether this is producing copper NPs, as has been said, or if the product is something with a likely stoichiometry of Cu2B.

Either way it is being used by folk for the reduction in question and they are getting their results, proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say.

But, what is driving me up the wall, is not knowing for sure if it's a binary boride, or if it's CuNPs as claimed. Visually, there isn't much to say, save for the reaction, before use for a reduction process, affords a finely divided black product, that forms a slurry if stripped of much solvent, both in the case of nickel boride (I've only ever made P2 nickel boride though, using the acetate salt, and it, too, is a fine black suspension of insoluble particles.

Anybody know if acidification of these binary borides with a non-oxidizing strong acid would, in the case of, after thorough washing to remove remains of borohydride and residues of it's decomposition containing boron, repeated until eventual evaporation of solvent. after decanting most of it off, with no organics to be reduced, afford diborane upon acidification, with transition metal borides, in particular, copper borides? because I've been scratching my head what with sadly, not having a basement with an ICP-MS setup and an electron microscope to take a peek at what is going on in there.

So testing for boron via liberation of diborane seems like a way to go, possibly? (yes, I am aware of it's high toxicity, pyrophoricity, gaseous nature, and if pentaborane has anything to go by, an atrocious stench in even trace quantities, not something I'd undertake without the appropriate great care, on small scales for analysis of boron content in the product, and subsequent deliberate pyrolysis of all exit gases, again, to examine for chemical behaviour as well as neutralizing the threat of diborane itself.
 
Several posts in this thread have been removed.

Novaveritas and Clubcard, please cool it. If you disagree with something someone has posted you can respectfully disagree.
 
Why mine, SJB? I wasn't at all rude to CC, and I don't think it at all unprofessional to point out that one cannot, for example, post a reaction suggestion involving that dinitrophenylhydroxylamine, and then post an MSDS sheet for unsubstituted NH2OH, as aqueous 50% freebase, and claim that they are one and the same in terms of safety, or actions when employed for a reaction.

It is simple scientific fact. One wouldn't claim dinitrophenylhydroxylamine to be the same as say, dinitrophenol, or dinitrophenylhydrazine, would you? and if you did, then how is it not perfectly legitimate to call somebody on it. That isn't abusive, it is pointing out scientific fact for scientific fact.

Which I reserve the right to call someone on points thereof, if such arise. In fact if I see them, I refuse point blank not to.

Where I see scientific disingenuous statements made, it is nothing less than something I swear eternal hostility against. I am for knowledge, and for scientific truth. And that, is not going to change. Not a molozonide-in-hell's-deepest-magma-lake's chance.
 
If you prefer, I am more than willing to undertake the experiment, myself, to verify. Such as spiking eugenol samples with white phosphorus, which I can prepare with little difficulty, from the 2kg reagent grade (sigma) RP, and treating with the OTC concentrations of H2O2 I can find quickly, 3,6,9 and possibly 12% aqueous H2O2, although it is stabilized with phenacetin and phosphoric acid, the last of course would need removal by precipitation of the calcium salt.

But you wish such correlation via direct spiking and assay attempts for willy pete?

I appreciate the thought but I have to write it up for Michael. We don't have this problem yet (FF) but obviously we have the booklets ready.
 
I guess most of the stuff has already been covered.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/645148-Codeine-Freebase-Extraction-and-Caffeine-Removal

BTW it looks like PI3 is important. It will -OH ---> I the 6 position AND possibly add across the 7,8 double bond. I suspect the 'expert sample' that had NO desomorphine & NO 6-methyldesomorphine was made without P. Still not safe but the 6-deoxymorphine isn't in the MoDA. The C-ring isn't open to hydroxylation which is where the longer T1/2 comes from.

But whatever - the RP/WP/BP looks like the poison. Apart from oxidation with H2O2, I can't see anything else to reduce damage.

While Br2 in water adds across alkene, I2 needs TCM or TCM apparently and PI3 is often mentioned so it looks like you need the P. Well good. We won't be seeing much P outside Russia.

I might add that the methylbromide salt is reduced to the N-methyl when larger moieties are present (except for very specific reactions) so don't look for N-PE. On the other hand, 6-I to 6-N3 looks possible but azides aren't fun and we don't know how toxic that stuff is. Better nalmefene......
 
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Well of the three, it has to be WP.

RP isn't toxic, and black phosphorus requires either extreme pressure while being heated, or else protocols with addition of certain metal salts to dispense with the high pressure requirement. It's unreactive, AFAIK insoluble in everything, and similar to graphite, not toxic and not likely to form either, unless one deliberately targets synthesis. The other allotropes, scarlet, phosphorus is the only one I could see forming. I have heard, some time ago that red P has a slight solubility in PBr3, and recrystallization of red phosphorus from PBr3 has been used, as well as the typical route involving light exposure to CS2 solution of WP. Violet needs careful thermal zoning in a sealed container, for a long time, high temperatures, or else being recrystallized via heating a sample of phosphorus from molten lead, slowly cooling it, dissolving the Pb away using nitric acid and finally boiling in conc. HCl.

Wonder if RP has any degree of solubility in PI3? so POSSIBLY, if so, Schlenk's phosphorus allotrope could form. No idea if scarlet phosphorus is toxic.

Of the others, vitreous grey phosphorus is prepared from specific crystal structure formations of WP, and the recently discovered blue phosphorus is similar to black P, although when pure at least, has a quite wide bandgap as a semiconductor. Typically prepared via molecular beam epitaxy. So I don't see it turning up either.

You DEFINITELY do not want azide groups in an opioid. Jesus no. There do exist some research ligands with azide moieties on a morphinan opioid skeleton, they are used as irreversible, covalent-binding ligands. That would end up literally destroying each and every MOR in the brain. Just imagine the sheer horror of TOTAL inactivation of MORs, until new ones grow in their place.

Azides in drugs, like hydrazine moieties or isocyanato functionalities, need to be avoided unless one wants to prepare a covalent ligand.

And they are most unsuitable for use in humans for any possible reason bar torture of a truly despised, loathed worst enemy, hated above and beyond the vilest child molester on the face of the planet. Just the thought of a saturating inactivation of MORs is a grim image.
 
The total irreversible inactivation of mu/delta poioid receptors is probably already doable. Just say "naloxazone".
 
Its irreversible but not permanent.
As soon as the receptors are recycled they are able to the bonded by mu agonists again.
But i read about a russian method for opioid addiction that is supposed to permanently alter your opioid receptors in such a way that when you relapse you got a almost 100% chance to overdose and die.
 
^^^ yo! was it you who mentioned 1-propionyl-4-cinnamyl piperazine (AP-237) a mu selective OP, sometime ago in one of the NPD thread?..I forgot which one.. apparently some vendors(chinese??) were reading your postings: the 2-methyl-analog (2-Methyl-AP-237) is now article of commerce on opioid RC markets..I am not sure where they put the methyl on the piperazine or how good that compound is..(or bad in the sense how potent ie lethal it is !!.. (fck man! what kind of shit they will come up with for a quick buck??) .. buy anyway kind of interesting to see BL compounds ending up on the market!!
 
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^^^ yo! was it you who mentioned 1-propionyl-4-cinnamyl piperazine (AP-237) a mu selective OP, sometime ago in one of the NPD thread?..I forgot which one.. apparently some vendors(chinese??) were reading your postings: the 2-methyl-analog (2-Methyl-AP-237) is now article of commerce on opioid RC markets..I am not sure where they put the methyl on the piperazine or how good that compound is..(or bad in the sense how potent ie lethal it is !!.. (fck man! what kind of shit they will come up with for a quick buck??) .. buy anyway kind of interesting to see BL compounds ending up on the market!!

Not the first time this happens. The idea for methiopropamine also came from here, I think. There was some discussion years ago about the problem that we're doing "free consulting work" for RC vendors by putting our ideas here. I hope they don't take something like my idea of methylphenidate with nitrogen replaced by selenium and start selling it without any knowledge about its toxicity...
 
The idea for methiopropamine also came from here, I think.

It really doesn't take a genius to figure that replacing phenyl with thiophene will result in a compound with analogous activity; bioisosteres are covered in med chemistry. Besides, "thiopropamine" aka 1-(thiophen-2-yl)-propan-2-amine or thiophenylisopropylamine was known as a stimulant analog of amphetamine back in 1941. Adding a N-methyl is a pretty logical extension.

we're doing "free consulting work" for RC vendors by putting our ideas here.
Patents tend to be more useful. Anybody can doodle a structure but providing a working recipe to make it is another thing. See also, all the *INACA series cannabinoids, shamelessly stolen from some big pharma's patent disclosures.
 
^^^ yo! was it you who mentioned 1-propionyl-4-cinnamyl piperazine (AP-237) a mu selective OP, sometime ago in one of the NPD thread?..I forgot which one.. apparently some vendors(chinese??) were reading your postings: the 2-methyl-analog (2-Methyl-AP-237) is now article of commerce on opioid RC markets..I am not sure where they put the methyl on the piperazine or how good that compound is..(or bad in the sense how potent ie lethal it is !!.. (fck man! what kind of shit they will come up with for a quick buck??) .. buy anyway kind of interesting to see BL compounds ending up on the market!!

Alternatively, a Chinese chemist may have thought to take what was (is?) a fairly-commonly-used pharmaceutical opioid in China and add a methyl to it. But you never know, the idea may have come from here!
 
Sad to say AP-237 isn't fun. It was trialled in the US for substitution therapy. It didn't work. The potent bridged derivatives are interesting but a lot of work but in-between are functionalized AP-237 derivatives with methyl & cis-dimethyl moieties on the piperazine ring. I got a sample of AP-237 and friends who used said it made them feel worse. It just made me feel sick.

Methiopropamine was first mentioned in a 1946 paper but AFAIK it was some guys on Russian Hyperlab that actually tried it first. I believe mephedrone came from RH as well but Ezekiel Golan AKA 'Dr. Zee' claims the credit. But then he claimed the credit for Benzo Fury and that was from a patent! Let's just say that Dr. Dave now knows about 'Pace', Zee's alcohol alternative so watch this space. Stealing of someone who CAN make a legal response will be interesting.
 
I didnt know that compound is used in China and was trialled in the US. Kind of curious what the Chinese are up to! Bridged piperazine? are you talking about azaprocin type? For sure that one and the trimethyl piperazine derivatives aint gonna be cheap to synthesize.. but do they actually work? they don't look like any OP chemotype afaik

As for methiopromine, yeah it is obvious thiophen is a straightforward bioisosteric replacement of a phenyl (if the aim go around the law, no need for trolling BL.. not rocket science really..
 
I'm always amazed by the made do and mend atmosphere around Russian chemists. They acetylate morphine using aspirin. I like that - no need of schedule 1 reagents.

ANYONE know if Russian Hyperlab is backed up somewhere? It's a gold mine of practical methodology.
 
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I believe mephedrone came from RH as well but Ezekiel Golan AKA 'Dr. Zee' claims the credit. But then he claimed the credit for Benzo Fury and that was from a patent! Let's just say that Dr. Dave now knows about 'Pace', Zee's alcohol alternative so watch this space. Stealing of someone who CAN make a legal response will be interesting.

Funny, "Pace" just showed up on the Canadian national news yesterday. Golan and Nutt published a paper together in 2017, but it looks like the patents for use of MEAI as a treatment for binge drinking are only Golan's. Did he do this behind Nutt's back?
 
Funny, "Pace" just showed up on the Canadian national news yesterday. Golan and Nutt published a paper together in 2017, but it looks like the patents for use of MEAI as a treatment for binge drinking are only Golan's. Did he do this behind Nutt's back?

Yes he did it behind Nutt's back and since Dr. Dave is a close friend of professor Nutt, I have every expectation of Perdue's legal team demanding a decent slice of the profits. In fact, they may wait until the company is doing REALLY well before issuing a legal cease and desist. It's cheaper to give away 50% of the profits rather than not having the product on the market for YEARS. If Pace IS a success, Dave can close them down and offer the rights to someone else. Ezekiel Golan has literally NO understanding of medicinal chemistry. I talked to him once (and loathed him). I talked about ADME, LogP & pKa and he said 'I don't look at those when I design a drug'. Safe to say that he's never invented anything novel EVER and is just a con-man. He's a very GOOD con-man, I might add... but a med. chemist will smell the BS in seconds....
 
The n-butyroylcinnamylpiperazine one,can't be THAT pricy to synthesize can it? for an industrial plant process point of view, not for someone like me wanting to investigate it on the scale of 10s to 100s of grams? they use cinnamaldehyde in graffiti remover sprays for example,and cinnamon itself, if one were to go back to basics and prepare the alkyl halide personally, it is such a common spice, and cassia is an alternative source, it would hardly break the bank compared to the sales of an opioid agonist, especially when it is already known and has been put through human testing.

This Golan git, he sounds loathsome. WHATTACUNT, I think I'd end up asking him to cook me some meth, providing all the reagents for a P2P based route (since even the worst redneck can do a Nagai with just a cake baking style prop sheet, while not difficult at least it takes multiple steps to make one's P2P (well one step if using acidic iron and FeCl3 on P2NP, the latter being made in 15 minutes in the microwave oven, classic Knoevanagel style, nitro and benz, nuke, cool, nuke, cool, nuke, cool until irradiation time is passed, freeze-precipitation, re-ex and there you go) hell, I'd even put out some borohydride, and say make amphetamine itself using nowt but Fe, GAA or HCl (his choice), FeCl3, and borohydride plus whatever solvents he might choose from my arsenal, save for acetonitrile as I prefer to hang on to that and use it for when it must be used specifically, or at least a polar aprotic must needs be used, MeCN being the lowest boiling one, not needing the time under high vacuum to strip it that DMSO or DMF do)
 
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