Phenylpiperidine Opioids - how low can you go?

[Limpet_Chicken]

Clubcard-wouldn't consider making krokodil personally, desomorphine, yes, but not that unholy witch's brew of shite and poison.

But I'd not be doing it from codeine either, but from morphine, via SOCl2 to the chloromorphide then catalytic hydrogenation. Got as far as the chloromorphide in the past (I've a morphine script), but got sidetracked by bioassay, since it proved to be rather unusual, and distinctly non-opioid like in action. At least, not like MOR agonists.

 

[polymath]

Hey, since you are familiar with RFNA, you might answer me a quick question.

While RFNA needs the containers to be vented regularly to dispose of NOx gases that build up due to decomposing N2O4, does WFNA require the same treatment?

Instinct tells me it shouldn't, but always better to find out what can go wrong before it actually does.

Doesn't the color of the liquid HNO₃ just depend on how much has already decomposed to nitrogen oxides?

Edit: Oh, you mean something phosphorus pentoxide dried, containing also N₂O₄, with RFNA. I don't think the material I meant was exactly that, the color can range from yellow to red even in HNO₃ that contains some water as an impurity. I think any nitric acid that's over 60% or so, will need occasional opening of the bottle to prevent pressure build up. When I had to handle that in organic chem lab work, the nitric acid bottle there had a glass cap that would freely pop out in the case of excessive pressure.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I wasn't thinking of using P2O5 as a desiccant, Rather, distillation of a nitrate salt and 98% H2SO4. Or, due to it's being a potential byproduct of thermal decomposition of copper nitrate (intermediate in producing CuCl2, which surprisingly, one can perform some rather nifty reductions in nanoparticulate form, in combination with borohydride, decomposes to give off NOx which IMO, might as well be recycled, I try to recycle as much waste as possible of anything that doesn't fall under the scheme of Na/K/Ca-based salts of worthless counterions like chloride, carbonate, or intractable tars, Although even carbonate and caustic hydroxide wastes can be used to scrub acidic gases or recapture SO2 once generated as a byproduct, or subjected to metallothermic reduction or electrolysis.)

I can't actually remember the second-to-last thing I actually disposed of permanently, and I only remember the last because it was some white P that had been hanging around, too small a quantity to be useful but enough to freak out fire brigade personnel doing occasional inspections of the place (given it's a privately owned lab, they seem to shit their pants about things that don't warrant it, any peroxides, pyrophoric materials (even looking somewhat sideways at a brick of Na, despite being vac-packed in a thick plastic liner after coating with mineral oil, then the inner liner sealed into a second, larger one inflated with inert gas) Not going anywhere until it's opened, a slight streak of peroxide/superoxide on part of it, but that was there from recipt of the Na, hasn't otherwise changed in over a two years), only things that have been gotten rid of otherwise are tars and SiO2/Mg thermite slag.

 

[clubcard]

WFNA & Br2 are 2 reagents that I won't work with. One drop of Br2 left a painful burn that hurt for months, I still have an angry mark. All I know is that many vendors of WFNA add a little HF to protect the storage vessel and that's more than enough to convince me that it isn't my bag. I mean, 70% HNO3 I've used but never had the cause or the wish to work with what add up to terrorist weapons. It's a great way to end up in a stripped cell for a couple of weeks while pointed questions are asked. Unless it's at a remote location, you're still in line for culpable reckless endangerment. If things go wrong and you survive, gross negligence and god forbid manslaughter.

Why the fixation on such vicious reagents? If you MUST have a small sample of 98-100% HNO3 (N2O4 <-> NO2 is in equilibrium based on temperature) then contamination with 02, C or indeed light will quickly MAKE it red. I would look at Russian papers because I think they dehydrate the 70% stuff with a lot of different reagents. Distillation isn't needed. I've successfully substituted things like TiCl4 with trivially simple alternatives like MgSO4. Water of crystallization will abstract H2O from pretty exotic materials. Of course, the classic route IS distillation (H2SO4 abstracts the water perfectly) but that's something for a glove box or at least a fume hood with a scrubber.

I HAVE seen a couple of decent tricks for dealing with less noxious fumes on a large scale e.g. the extractors used in car respray places and DIY fume hoods but the former doesn't provide personal protection and neither provide kinetic containment. If you are pumping out NO2, don't be surprised if it eats the extractor fan blades and activated charcoal is a fantastic material for the infusion of incompatible reagents.

There is a joke used by US journalists that if you want to find a home lab, follow a fire engine.

If you want to get rid of reagents, local authorities will (for a fee) take solvents (but obviously you use solvent management to minimize that) and for the rest, there are people who will take it. I appreciate it isn't free and while Foucault famously said 'visibility is a trap', best practice DOES make you socially acceptable. It doesn't sound like a LOT of stuff but all of those pieces of paper are proof that you are a responsible operator. People seem convinced that people will be looking for tiny amounts of some socially unacceptable material in the waste but that's rubbish. When I see images of dozens of rotting steel drums filled with solvent I'm just as angry as anyone else. If my family and my kids lived next door to some dick had their own Enschede in their garage, it doesn't exactly make me think well of them.

On short HR in this case is finding an alternative. Papers & patents are free and there are about 100 million of them in English so tree the 'cited by' and see what the latest developments are. One focus on progress IS safer alternatives. Nitration has had a lot of attention in the last decade. If you intend to reduce to an amine, just use O-(2,4-dinitrophenyl)hydroxylamine. Facile oxidative amination.

 

[polymath]

I wasn't thinking of using P2O5 as a desiccant, Rather, distillation of a nitrate salt and 98% H2SO4. Or, due to it's being a potential byproduct of thermal decomposition of copper nitrate (intermediate in producing CuCl2, which surprisingly, one can perform some rather nifty reductions in nanoparticulate form, in combination with borohydride, decomposes to give off NOx which IMO, might as well be recycled, I try to recycle as much waste as possible of anything that doesn't fall under the scheme of Na/K/Ca-based salts of worthless counterions like chloride, carbonate, or intractable tars, Although even carbonate and caustic hydroxide wastes can be used to scrub acidic gases or recapture SO2 once generated as a byproduct, or subjected to metallothermic reduction or electrolysis.)

Yeah, on a second thought, drying with P2O5 would produce N2O5 instead of N2O4. I remember a friend making conc. nitric acid with that nitrate distillation in high school.

The nitric acid and bromine were needed in a chemical analysis task as far as I can remember. I had a suspected alkene hydrocarbon and tested this by adding a drop of fuming HNO3 to it in a test tube and seeing it almost shoot out of the tube as expected (actually, HNO3 is used as an oxidizer in some crazy liquid phase rocket fuel). After that I brominated the sample to see what the difference between the boiling points of the original and brominated samples was (this would identify the alkene).

 

[clubcard]

Surely you just use bromine to detect alkenes? If the brown colour disappears, it's because it's brominated the double-bond. For possible multiple alkenes, the MW and thus BP would rise more. Sulfuric acid with add a hydroxyl but nitric acid... My ignorance most likely. I can remember several 19th century chemists who converted alkenes to pseudonitrosite and all of them died. Nitrous acid was the reagent in that case which meant NOx fumes. I don't think anyone used it after that. The -ONO can by hydrolysed and I suppose if the benzylic -OH and the nitroalkane could be reduced in 1-pot it might have been of some use.... but I wouldn't touch it.

I wasn't keen on the methylnitrite Wacker oxidation for the same reason. A 'heady atmosphere' to say the least.

So many things are possible but when you read the small print, 90% of them are ridiculous and a further 5% are not reliable.

Go with what educators go with.

BTW the H3BO3 & Aliquat-336 catalysed O-demethylation of related compounds gives a yield if 98%. BBr3 is a great way to end up in Belmarsh. I put it to you that using really dangerous precursors gives the CPS all manner of options. As for dehydration of HNO3, I would check out magnesium nitrate. I THINK the Russian patents mention it. Of course, Russian patents are often rubbish but it's worth a look.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Actually it's more of a desire to prepare anhydrous HBr, for use in demethylation-esterification of DHC.

And the reason I was asking about the fuming nitric, was that its a lot easier for me to go up to the lab and grab some NaNO3 and H2SO4, distill and dilute to desirable concentration. The sulfuric I have around is 98%, generally, use would be for preparation of soluble salts of otherwises fairly inactive metals, due to its strongly oxidizing powers.

That, and I have what you might call a philosophy, if not universally applied, but usually, its a lot easier to dilute something concentrated than it is to concentrate something diluted.

But in this case, its actually wanting to find out the lower-end figure, where it is less prone to pressure buildup. Currently, mostly for that sort of inorganic nitrate salt formation from transition metals, in this case. copper, en route to CuCl2 via the intermediacy of basic copper carbonate, tried electrolysis of Cu in H2SO4, but either that doesn't work particularly well at the current and voltage (12V car battery charger) or the concentration of acid (98-99%) has a negative effect on formation of CuSO4.

So the most expedient method would, for me personally, with the reagent stock I have on the shelves currently, be thermal pyrolysis of cupric nitrate to the oxide and NO2, catching the NOx driven off in either water, to reform HNO3 from the waste stream, or a caustic alkali solution to regenerate the waste stream as either the same nitrate salt started with, or reformation with another cation with desirable solubility characteristics compared to the starting material, NaNO3 in this case.

Don't take me for the sort of whoreson of a cunt that leaves a toxic desert behind that is fit habitation for scorpions, cockroaches, bacteria and politicians but very little else, or some redneck backwoods bastardized shake-n-bake-er. I just have a very deep interest in chemistry, pharmacology, molecular biology, pretty much most of the sciences actually, and for me to take an interest, the qualification details run less like 'oh how neat, its dangerous' and more like 'what remarkable chemistry or unusual reaction mechanisms, or allotropic modifications etc. are known, and how can they be tweaked and exploited in creative ways.

It just happens to sort of run in a separate, but parallel direction, a bit of a humorous observation more than anything on my part would be that the more useful a chemical reagent or element is, the harder it'll be to prepare it by one's own hand, the more porcine eyes would love to know about transactions, the less likely it is to occur as a native element or common ore in one's locality and the more toxic, less stable and generally more ornery and more of a shit to handle it'll be.

For example, just look at basic supplies like halogenating agents, cheapest and often as not least versatile or narrow in scope or else too broad in reactivity scope, the elements themselves, want something chlorinated, for example then it's a lot SAFER in terms of toxicology working with chlorine gas IF, it were taken to mean the chemist were to be exposed to a roughly equi-toxic level of each, and absorb an amount of either sufficient to cause a similar long-term level of bodily harm, SOCl2 would be the more hazardous option, but given a choice, I'll take the SOCl2 90% of the time, and prefer it over the likes of phosphorus trichloride, tribromide, pentahalides etc as well. Why? preferable to Cl2 because it isn't gaseous, easier to weigh and measure, and it reacts rapidly, liberating HCl and SO2 as potential byproducts. Which unlike the phosphorus halides, means one can use the gaseous nature of the reaction side-products to drive the equilibrium of the halogenation to the right, and, as they say here, in for a penny in for a pound, no solid byproducts to have to strip the product clean of.

Cons? toxic, smelly, corrosive, and harder to obtain than Cl2, although I can buy it easily enough, making it (what a surprise) would be a decent challenge, although not one I'd shirk if I had no other option than purchase or else vac-distillation, potentially fractional distillation of the electrolyte in certain batteries.

Cl2 stinks, it's corrosive, its toxic although not obscenely so, certainly not in an uncontrollable manner unless you happen to be in a WWI/II era trench and on the receiving end of a tens to hundreds of tons of Cl2 being sent en-masse towards your trench, and you happen to be a squaddie not a chemist, and not know what to do about it. Although in gaseous form at least, a lot less liable to cause chemical burns on skin contact, while SOCl2 will do so and badly (this, mind you, was when I was still very much the neophyte, learning the basics, and having no idea that thionyl chloride was even USED in batteries, after running into a demolished building with, of the entire place, just a small section of wall, with a dismembered security system still mounted, which happened to be Li-SOCl2 cells. wasn't of an age when I even had an internet connection IIRC, and was forced to learn solely by means of textbooks and chemical indices, and at the time, certainly couldn't buy SOCl2 with just a quick email and paypal payment to the right people, so the first one being opened, spilled some of the contents onto the steel-spiked leather fingerless gloves I often wear, and promptly started rusting the metal, as it ripped through first the leather, rotting it like the devil's own HF-SbF5/vindaloo post-hangover flatus, and making an unholy mess of the hand underneath.

Took the glove off, and the skin and flesh of my left hand just sloughed right off with it. I've still got the scar there to remind me of it. Yes, I won't try to hide the fact that I have, in my life, made chemical mistakes, some harmful to myself, some not, never hurt anybody else, and take great pains, where a risk factor exists, to work in a way that means iF the worst happens, it happens either to myself only, or if I were fortunate enough to have a lab partner, someone knowing the risks and accepting them with full knowledge of the nature and degree of hazard(s) posed.

Not to people living nearby. Never had a burglar (other than a pig), and I've absolutely no sympathy and will not in the slightest go out of my way to help one if ever one does break in to the lab and raise Cain on their own arse with something that is hanging about. That, is IMO different to an innocent bystander. Break in to an unfamiliar lab with a view to nicking valuables from a home, and find something highly corrosive, lethally toxic, pyrophoric or all of the above instead, then good, makes it less likely they will end up reoffending, or if they do, it'll be someone else's place rather than the one they know has too many containers of things that would like to eat an unsuspecting burglar alive for their liking.

But anyone else, the only person, who goes into the lab, is me, with the exception of occaional official examinations by fire brigade folk (not in the context of fighting a fire, rather, for the first time, to hand out a ring-binder with various official protocols and procedures, safety assessment techniques and what have you, as well a to offer me some free heavy-duty fire blankets, fit some smoke alarms generally around the house for nowt, and, one of the firemen was decent enough to let me have a couple of CO sniffers, one to actually fit near the gas boiler, and the other for use as a portable sniffer for monitoring situations where CO is known to be either a byproduct of something, or is to be used for a purpose, for no charge. )

And when they come, it is by appointment with me, and I'll take them there, and if they have any questions of a nature I'm happy answering, I'll talk with them about various things for a short time, essentially a brief guided tour of the place, along with the obviously required safety guidance in the context of 'that over there is something you look at, but don't think about touching' vs 'feel free to examine it closer if you wish'.

Sure, there are a few rather nasty reagents either on the shelves, in cupboards, or for certain materials, in teflon or other fluoroinert polymer capped and flexible/compressible inner cap seal-fitted glass bottle of a suitable size for keeping a modest quantity in each bottle (I'd sooner, just say something really shitty happened, like my having a non-fatal heart attack, or other 'act of god' as the more religiose would put it, or, more aptly 'shit happens' moment, such as that resulting in the dropping and breaking of a bottle of ICl, as I fall arse over tit, out cold down the stairs, I'd rather have been taking up 100ml 10xover than 1l once, for just such reasons as accidental release.

Better to have your eggs in multiple baskets, so if one breaks, then the fallout is lesser in severity and range, is the thinking behind that.

And the ONLY things that come even close to 'rotting drums of solvents' are a pair of perfectly healthy end-user size jugs of high-boiling, low flammability stoddard solvent, tucked away in a little wooden 'porch' in the back garden, to keep them out of the way. Crap for extraction purposes, but if a high boiling aliphatic nonpolar is needed, for something like a decarboxylation, or most often, for keeping some alkali or alkaline earth metal under whilst cutting the needed quantity into pieces suitable for the needs of the reaction being performed.

And one glass setup, from a distillation done a fair time ago, that is still outside because I've been unable to un-stick the seized joints, after performing a distillation of some iodine monochloride, prepared by simple comproportion of solid I2 with dry Cl2 in equimolar proportions, after the Cl2 is first led through a drying tube.

What I didn't count on was the formation of a small amount of the trichloride, from the spent Cl2 generator, SLOOOOOWLY off-gassing residual Cl2, and a few grams of residual unconverted iodine in the column used to pack the I2 in, converting to ICl first, infiltrating the teflon-lined joints (ICl is absolute murder on most greases and lubricants, although some silicones will survive it, and can be used to cover the teflon layer, but those aside, and somewhat volatile as the one I have is, it doesn't hang around for as long after application as it took for the ICl to infiltrate into the gap between joints, then undergo chlorination to ICl3. That's still there, set up, and sealed, clamped in place, so that the only way, short of the uncontrollable 'shit happens', the metal parts of the portable benchtop drawing a lightening bolt etc., is for human interaction, if that ICl3 is to go anywhere without my doing, it'll be someone who shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Preventing myself being a cause of harm, is of course the responsible and appropriate course of action, but I cannot hold myself responsible if some random shit actively seeks out something, fucks with it and suffers as a result.

I don't like people dumping noxious wastes either, any more than you do.

Yes, there are materials such as alkyl and acyl halides, haloalkenes, strong acids and bases, pyrophoric materials (WP for example, which I don't seek out 'because it looks neat, its glow in the dark pyrophoric poison' etc., but because it is useful, but happens to be hazardous.), and the likes of Hg (II) salts, pyrophoric hydride reducing agents such as LAH, and potent, toxic oxidizers like chromyl chloride, or the interhalogens (although I make a point of in the latter case, avoiding the fluorinated species, due to their extreme potential for carnage.

As for your applying that 'because it's hazardous' line of thought to HNO3, actually it was primarily from a point of view of 'what is the highest practical concentration not needing a really tight schedule of venting, just lest I forget one such appointment with such a task'

And in terms of waste management, I'll dispose of things as they must be disposed of, if I need them gone. But I also operate with 'waste nowt, want for nowt' and 'one man's trash is another man's treasure' as watchwords. I like to, where possible, follow principles used in industrial scale plant tech, where waste streams are considered and a use is found for them, if not directly recyclable to the feedstock. One man's trash, same man's treasure for something else he has in mind, basically.

And I sure as shit don't dump my permanent waste materials, the irredeemable that is fit only for consignment to the appropos mode of garbage disposal for the material in question, it really is quite rare that I have much to get rid of to begin with, at least, to actually, permanently eliminate from my presence, because I'm both an enthusiastic recycler and a tight fisted bastard with his wallet who'd rather not pay for what he already has, if only he thinks with foresight and creativity beforehand.

Hg wastes, there is very little produced to begin with, I don't like soluble Hg compounds much, and I have a particular loathing for Al/Hg amalgam reductions or red-ams The feeling, from every opportunity I've ever had to evaluate it, is entirely mutual. I hate it, it hates me, my HgCl2 is content to stay in it's multiple-bagged tight sealed factory-supplied bottle in a dark cupboard and never see the light of day, whilst I'm just as content to let it.

Pb...only loss is in terms of vapour when using a molten metal bath with solder or just Pb to impart a greater heating to something than a hotplate will, or for a longer period than using a gas torch would be practical for, and I only occasionally need my molten metal bath.

Arsenicals-very, very uncommon for me to be performing any arsenic chemistry. And if I do come in to any, I'm not about to let it escape, both for it's toxicity profile, and for the fact that I'll want to hang on to it.

Sb-never done anything with it, unless you include it in some of the solders used in that metal bath.

Probably the toxic metal waste produced in greatest quantities, would be chromium, as Cr(VI), from the chromic acid baths used to deal with recalcitrant polymerized glorp, that, gets used until spent in terms of oxidizing capacity, then consigned to waste tanks specifically earmarked for storing spent chromic acid, when one gets filled, it'll be recycled, after first pyrolyzing any organic debris. Most probably, taking advantage of the fact that concentrated H2SO4 is mixed with the concentrated chromium waste, adding NaCl, and refluxing, distilling in vacuo to convert the waste to CrO2Cl2, and allow it a rebirth to serve once more, rather than find itself headed for an ignominious ending as toxic waste being sent for disposal.

There's quite a lot of it, needing demijohns to contain it all, obviously sealed until required, to prevent the concentrated H2SO4 allowing the chromic wash to become unacceptably hydrated, and need more effort to dry it before going for it's reincarnation as chromyl chloride, given it's water sensitive nature, and the great affinity for H2O exhibited by highly concentrated H2SO4, it's hygroscopic nature being unwelcome in a process involving searing hot 98-99% sulfuric, mixed with oxidizing chromium species at reflux temperature with respect to CrO2Cl2, during synthesis, to be performed immediately prior to distillation and portioning it out into suitable bottles (no, it's not something new to me either, I've handled chromyl chloride before, never had to ship it anywhere or have it shipped to me, since it's always been a matter of distillation of a mixture of dry chromate/dichromate, an alkali metal chloride, typically NaCl given it's ubiquitous and dirt cheap status, and the most concentrated sulfuric available without deliberately adding additional SO3 to produce oleum.

IMO, if someone is both practically capable of handling reagents such as Br2, ICl, ICl3, BrCl,, the feistier hydride reducing agents, CrO2Cl2, phosphorous halides, SOCl2, etc. and comfortable in their ability to do so responsibly (when of course, one has actually put in the effort required to know what 'responsible' entails with respect to any given substance), then I don't see why fuming HNO3 is to be viewed as somehow extra-specially hazardous, comparatively speaking.

I should think that for example, a distillation of white phosphorus, from red P under inert gas flow pushing the vapor stream into a deep column of ice-cold H2O, or synthesis and distillation of CrO2Cl2 or iodine monochloride would all be considerably more hazardous if approached without the requisite care and attention to detail, compared to HNO3, or even N2O4/N2O5.

Are all privately owned labs ideal or suitable for such ? no, and neither are plenty of home chemists, or (ick!) cooks who don't really give a fuck beyond how much yield and how quickly he can knock out a kilo of meth, regardless of whether he's dumping drums full of Al/Hg slops in the bloody woods (yes, someone actually admitted to this on a chemistry forum I frequent, and I was one of the first to rip the shit out of him for it and make sure he knew exactly WHY he was being taken to task for his behaviour, and what he could do to avoid it, or even avoid the creation of such waste to begin with. Same with the last sonofawhore to admit dumping industrial size drums of post Al/Hg slime by burying them in the woods, one of the first to dogpile the bastard and give him the bollocking of a lifetime. If I caught someone doing THAT in meatspace...christ, I don't know exactly what I'd do, but more than likely it would involve being forced to drink the contents of their acidic Al/Hg after digging their own grave. And I'm not speaking metaphorically either. I'd have not the slightest problem in extirpating such a pestilential creature as that. The one of the two I'm thinking of, he seems to want to better himself, but the other one, he just came up with a riposte to the general theme of 'well it works, it's cheap and I can just chuck the slops out in the hundreds of gallons wherever there is somewhere to dig a hole in some woods out of sight, so go fuck yourself you arrogant prick'

That, IMO is quite beyond redemption, and deserving of being slowly roasted in their own juiced, basted in their own toxic waste, after, quite literally, being chained to a tree; made to dig a grave, before having their toxic waste force-fed to them, and left to die slowly and miserably for their sins, and thereafter being kicked into their self-dug grave, ideally shrink-wrapped in something like a paste of Zn and S8 first to bind as much Hg as possible liberated by their rotting carcass, to make as much of the contamination end with their execution as practical.

 

[polymath]

As a side note, I'd like to mention that when doing acid-base extractions with ordinary nonpolar solvents, I tend to add some table salt to the water solution in addition to the NaOH. A solution with higher ionic strength is better at driving freebase alkaloids to the nonpolar phase. Added NaCl seems to also help when you're making chlorine gas by adding acid to a hypochlorite solution (this is just Le Chatelier's principle in practice).

And to Neithman about the effectiveness of codeine, I'm right now high as fuck from taking a mere 150 mg:s of codeine phosphate hemihydrate after having none for a few days. But I have to admit that there's a sedative antihistamine in my system too, at a dose enough to almost saturate the H1 receptors. Of course if someone's used to smoking or injecting stronger opioids, they're not gonna get a lot out of codeine. The effect of an opium extract with morphine differs from codeine only in the duration of effect in my experience, and also in that it causes more urinary retention.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Salting out, you mean? quite familiar with it, often used for separating isopropanolic solutions of something from hydroisopropanolic media, and such like, saturate the shit out of the aqueous phase, supersaturate at moderate heat, judiciously as to what the extracted principle may tolerate thermally speaking, with NaCl, and tap off the iPA once it separates, with a big glass syringe at first followed by the typical sep funnel.

(glass syringes...SUCH a useful and handy tool for any chemist to have in his or her arsenal of lab glass. The kind with no plunger seal of organic material at all save perhaps teflon in some, but mine are just all borosilicate glass, barrel, plunger, the works, save only the calibration of volume loading on the outside. Got sizes from 5 and 10ml all the way up to 120ml, but one can in practice, actually hold another 60-80ml liquid ju st taking advantage of the deadspace where calibration markings end, if need be. I love the buggers, since being nothing but borosilicate glass, no rubber or plastic polymers to attack, and as such able to withstand use for dispensing hot, concentrated solutions of chemicals and/or solvents that would turn any plastic rig into a pile of semiliquefied goop, or else freeze the plunger seal to the barrel for good, unless sheer brute force is applied, which would
cause contents so ruinous as to inflict the damage done in the first place to suddenly give out, resultant in a forceful jet of the contents.

Not a nice prospect if it happens to be something like concentrated H2SO4, HNO3, HClO4, WP dissolved in anything, anything potentially noxious dissolved in DMSO, etc. comes suddenly, unpredictably, uncontrollably rocketing out like a gunshot, splattering everywhere given the ghost of a chance.

Polymath, I'm at a point way beyond the use of codeine for anything but the manipulations and schemings of art and artifice, with the one exception of my making my signature manhattan-project EtOEt-depthcharge cocktail, with the specific brand of codeine linctus as a layer at the bottom of the highball glass, after first mixing in a couple of drops of chloroform, since it used to be in there as either flavour or preservative in that care+ codeine linctus, but now it's not there anymore, and the chloroform was the key to bridging the sweetness of the syrup, the lashings of fresh-squeezed lime and lemon juice, the terpenes from the grated lime zest, with the bite of the vodka and the slightly oilier mouthfeel of the diethyl ether compared to EtOH.

Only a drop or two, mixed in thoroughly with the linctus layer, with one to two further drops from a pipette added to the vodka used to make the middle part, the tesco lime soda/good vodka like stoli, or russian standard, grey goose fr.ex, then shaken to shit to help the flavour disperse throughout, even when diluted by the lime soda, which has to be tesco own brand cheap stuff. It just works that way, don't ask me why, because I haven't a clue, it just DOES, because it feels like it for all I know, but work, it does

(that is, shaking the vodka and the couple of drops CHCl3 SEPARATELY, with an ice cube or two to aid mixing, BEFORE mixing with the soda, and pouring gently over the back of a tablespoon just above the CHCl3-reflavoured linctus layer, at the glass wall, to form a bilayer of linctus with the vodka-soda on top, and the depth charge with EtOEt, iced, with a load of citrus juice plus the zest from the lime used to make the lime bits of the lock gate contraption I came up with to hold the depth charge bit in place as the first point of contact.

The re-addition of CHCl3 to the care+ linctus is mandatory, and its very, very helpful in getting the flavour of the vodka and lime layer to bridge with the linctus and with the freshly squeezed lime juice/ether-bomb. Obviously the vodka and lime soda bit has to be made separately, if adding chloroform to it too, only use a LITTLE bit of CHCl3, as it isn't the healthiest compound to swallow, but it isn't so bad that it is intolerable to consume the occasional manhattan project as a treat, not easy to overdo it to begin with though either, given that codeine linctus of ANY sort is difficult now to find, despite being OTC, only one in a large number of pharmacies might stock it in a couple of towns, maybe 2, possibly three in a city perhaps, and even then, there is more than one brand, the other here in the UK being a vile synthetic orange, which tastes just like a particularly foul antibiotic liquid preparation I had forced on me once (even without the severe allergy to penicillins I have making me more miserable than the dental abscess from a broken tooth after accidentally running full tilt, teeth first into a schoolfriend's forehead at my first special ed school whilst having a kickabout with a ball, when we ran into each other and he headbutted me full force by accident, whilst I bit him in the headbutt, again accidentally and running as fast as I could go, snapping the front tooth and leaving it split in half diagonally, half in my face and the other half embedded in the schoolfriend's skull.)

Surprised that neither of us were injured worse than we were, KO'ed, or with a broken nose/cracked skull, with greater damage than a sharp spike made out of half a front tooth embedded in it. The antibiotic stuff I had used on me originally has the same foul synthetic orange plague-stench of the other available codeine linctus, with the only third codeine linctus option being terpin and codeine, which contains terpin hydrate and white pine oil, and tastes disgusting even without modification, like being made to chew and consume a pine wood fence, which had sweated out much resin over a short time, retaining a lot of the essential oil volatile fraction, a tiny bit more codeine per ml than the typical codeine linctus of either brand, but not much more, and it really is foulness distilled. As if an isocyanide and the cheese-creatures from the abyss of, if it shared the qualities of warmth, depth and valid use to humanity, would be theresa may's cunt; were to have inbred babies, which shat on each other, died and rotted half in and half out of a shallow pool of warm, stagnant nonmobile water for most of the warm summer months, distilled in vacuo to an essence and after isolation, given a liberal spritz of cacodyl.

 

[Neithman]

As a side note, I'd like to mention that when doing acid-base extractions with ordinary nonpolar solvents, I tend to add some table salt to the water solution in addition to the NaOH. A solution with higher ionic strength is better at driving freebase alkaloids to the nonpolar phase. Added NaCl seems to also help when you're making chlorine gas by adding acid to a hypochlorite solution (this is just Le Chatelier's principle in practice).

And to Neithman about the effectiveness of codeine, I'm right now high as fuck from taking a mere 150 mg:s of codeine phosphate hemihydrate after having none for a few days. But I have to admit that there's a sedative antihistamine in my system too, at a dose enough to almost saturate the H1 receptors. Of course if someone's used to smoking or injecting stronger opioids, they're not gonna get a lot out of codeine. The effect of an opium extract with morphine differs from codeine only in the duration of effect in my experience, and also in that it causes more urinary retention.

Yeah in the early days i used to get a medium buzz out of codeine,tho i always hated the amount of histamine release.
But now being on 600-800 mg of oral morphine a day,i dont get shit out of codeine.
I would love to synthezise me some dipropionylmorphine which limpet_chicken always talks about.
I stocked up some some morphine 200 mg capsules,powdered them and now have about 30 grams of morphine powder.
A few months ago i cooked up about 5 grams of morphine in order to destroy the extendet release and removed some of the binders and wax.
Didnt know how long morphine can be stored in water before it degrades,so i consumed in a matter of days and it clearly had a much quicker onset and a shorter duration.

Does anybody know how long morphine can be stored in water or additives that can slow down or stop degration?

 

[clubcard]

HBr in water demethylates DHC with a 98% yield....

I tell a lie - 97% using H3BO3 as 'rate accelerant'. Plain C will do if Aliquat-336 is used.

 

[sekio]

Yes, but HBr in acetic forms dihydroheroin directly in less time, plus it's way easier to work up... keep adding MeOH and rotovapping off MeBr/AcOMe.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Clubcard-can you personally vouch for observation of the aqueous demethylation of DHC to dihydromorphine? if so, it would be interesting, since I've sampled the 6-AcO-monoester, but never dihydromorphine itself. And damned if I could bring myself to cleave the ester of such a tasty, prime opioidergic specimen. The use of the anhydrous acid and GAA can facilitate the esterification as well as dealkylation.

One thing I've been longing to put to the test, is substitution of glacial propionic acid for GAA, same theme, anhydrous HBr in glacial propionic acid. Mainly because I've already sampled a series of ester derivatives of morphine, of lesser known use, the benzoyl ester, the n-butyroyl ester (ick...that one will be fun for people unused to confining horrid fumes. The acid anhydride is a truly filthy little monster, that if chemistry were to possess a gestalt sentience as a field, and creativity of it's own, would just have to be a sickly lurid green colour, the sort of hue that would conjure in the minds eye of men, the shades of vomited, congealing bile, perhaps t(a)inted with a fair bit of the color of earwax, and a habit of slowly burping up slow, languid bubbles of corpse-gas, slithering down the sides of an opened bottle like the putrescence from a bursting corpse, and the sickly, corrosive clouds that would have been known to the unfortunate military victims of chlorine gas attacks in the era of trench warfare, slowly oozing it's corrupted way forward with gibbering, foetid glee), obviously, have sampled plenty of the diacetyl ester way too many folk know and love, although I've never been nearly as enamoured of H as I am towards morphine itself, for whatever reasons, it has it's good points and it's let downs, but IMO the cons outweigh the pros, not really counting as much of an improvement to my taste in opioids. The n-butryic diester of morphine again, it seemed quite plain, the duration dropping immediately back down with the extension of the ester chain from C3 to C4, along with the stupendous rush of the C3 diester and potency again backed down.

C3 seems to offer a unique sweet spot as far as acyl esters are concerned, of morphine, the dipropionate ester really jumps in term of IV rush, even more so than morphine, much more than heroin (street or otherwise), the duration also anomalously spikes to easily two or three times that of diamorphine or morphine, of course, excellent analgesic for those actually in pain (my joints hate me, I hate them right back, along with the trochanteric bursitis in both hips that my altered walking gait has brought on and the nerve damage inflicted by the surgeon's blade whilst intending to fix the knee, and remove some splintered bone fragments that had been until then, free to do as they saw fit, to float about and get stabby, along with causing my knee to lock, or to collapse suddenly with no predictable pattern or warning. Some also irritating the patellar tendon, causing tendinitis, and generally making quite a bastard of themselves), I'm on morphine as main rx'd pain med, meant to be oral, but given insufficient to use it thus after switching to morphine from XR OC80s twice daily, and now using a combination of IM morphine and lower-dose IR oxycodone, the latter scripted at 80mg/d in the form of 10mg capsules for breakthrough and fine tuning of the day as requirements present themselves; but it was a mixed blessing, I converted to the more desirable morphine, but just my luck to have to explain the very concept of differences in routes of administration affecting the bioavailability of a drug, and even BA itself. So they pretty much assumed and left me with what would just about work, when injected, assuming it would also do the same thing when swallowed as an XR formulation.

Way, the, fuck, to, go; doctor. And to persistently ignore it being pointed out and explained in the most simplistic, yet accurate terms that the individual told me he could understand when explained to him, that no, an oral dose of morphine ends up with about 75% of it being chewed up in the liver and spat out screaming, with the remainder acting. And that weight potency itself is less, significantly,than oxycodone. Did they make the adjustments necessary?

No, did they fuck. Just got more suspicious and judgemental for the part of most of the GPs at the surgery, never mind that a simple and polite explanation of the biology of morphine metabolism and that of oxycodone, per os, was provided and the disparity pointed out.

Only ended up with what is now a just about sustainable total dose of pain medication with the oxy put together with the morphine, the latter having to be delivered by the spike, back-stabbing double edged sword that it is so (in)famous for being to the soul of a man who will pick up the point, and for a fair while, it wasn't sustainable, and modifications HAD to be assayed and the cream of the crop sown and reaped, for both quality and quantity, it turned out to be the dipropionyl ester, with it's anomalous peaking in multiple modalities, E.g weight potency compared to C1 shortening or C1 incremental lengthening with a straight chain acyl ester, the n-butyroyl diester, both dropped precipitously off in every respect, with DPM taking up a sweet spot perhaps akin in opioid chemistry to the island of stability for transactinide isotopes, in the realm of nuclear physics.)

Nothing terrible about di-n-butyroylmorphine compared to diacetylmorphine, pretty similarly bland, cannon fodder opioid material basically, increased potency vs unsubstituted morphine itself as expected, bit nothing like that sharp spike at C3-disubstitution. I have not yet tried the obvious interesting experiment of instead of n-butyric ester, using isobutyric diester, as a probe to try and determine whether a branched chain has any influence on the potency, etc.

It'll have to bee done when time and resources permit, of course, on a test scale of a few doses, IV, SC, and IM.

Still, of any morphine derivative that has ever come under my inspection, dipropionylmorphine is the outstander, outlier, bastion of unusual characteristics compared to it's immediate neighbors, with only alpha-chloromorphide proving to be deserving as yet of such a thorough evaluation, although in the latter case, that was precisely because it behaved so utterly unlike a MOR agonist at all in-vivo, with the weird purely cerebral psychostimulant effects without peripheral stimulation, as well as, in MOR agonist WD, a mild attenuation on it's own but nowhere near cessation of the unpleasantries of opiate withdrawal. But seeming modulatory effects if another, weak opioid, such as a CWE of DHC or codeine were used, or codeine syrup as an emergency, potentiating, but without the MOR agonist, just this weird cerebral...speeding up of thought processes, not excessively racing as with too much amphetamine or the like, no cardio push noted, but side effects did indeed prove to be the factor which limited the dosage, although the weight used at maximal dose, I no longer have the notes from, after a HD failure.

But the limiting factor on escalation of alpha-chloromorphide dosage, proved to be clonus in the distal extremities, myoclonic type twitches of the hands, froarms, as well as lower legs and ankles especially. Since I have seizures, some of them being of the atonic type, but the others, are myoclonic, or one moving into the other, typically myoclonic for a shortish duration before paralysis ensues, with some conscious awareness of the environment, although sensory perception is extremely skewed and warped during a seizure of the atonic type for me.

So, I've become both vigilant for the signs of either type about to slip the leash and go raise Cain, and, at least able to note down prognostic signs before a full blown attack that needs immediate termination with chlormethiazole, often with the help of my old man to physically put a few capsules in my mouth, if I've either gone fully atonic, or in the myoclonic phase or isolated type and twitching too badly, too often to have any hope of reaching out for the bottle I always keep close at hand, much less opening the child-proof cap, taking 2-4 capsules out and getting them from hand to mouth instead of throwing them at something or someone or dropping them, and of course, being unable to close the bottle myself.

And the top tier dosage of the alpha-chloromorphide, prepared via SOCl2 chlorination of morphine sulfate, by slow dropwise addition of a solution of thionyl chloride in ice-cold anhydrous acetone, made immediately prior to use, into a well-stirred similarly cooled flask containing the morphine sulfate in the same media, followed by a methanol quench of SOCl2 surplus to requirements if any there bee, vac distillation off of solvents, recrystallization, ensuring the PH balance was right, adjusting with dilute HCl and dilute sodium bicarbonate if needed, it definitely felt as if, were I to have pushed the dose any higher, it would have triggered a seizure, and of that, I have as little doubt, as I have that a chunk of sodium metal, thrown into water, ends up giving off copious hydrogen gas, ending up ultimately as NaOH, with plenty of skittering about the surface of the water and repeated explosions and pops bathed in the yellowy-orange of the sodium D-line when the flames begin.

I have to wonder, given the nature of the beastie, if it might be a DOR agonist ligand, since some, but not all of the delta OR agonists show convulsant side effects in excessive dosage, whilst profoundly potentiating the action of MOR agonist analgesia. The other candidate mode of action would be that of an antagonist at strychnine-sensitive glycine receptors, the potential pharmacophore for such ligands lurking, as it does within certain of the morphinans spawned from our sweet, langourous Papaver friend, in the guise of thebaine. And possibly oripavine.


Strychnine has, to my understanding, and reading of certain books in my scientific library which go back to the late 17th century AD, been used in controlled, very small quantities as a psychic energizer and stimulant. Although of course, the consequences of an overdose would be of the direst and most awful nature, and being I'm already taking antiseizure medication (the chlormethiazole, both as prophylactic and active response med), I don't particularly harbour any great enthusiasm or desire to procure any strychnine to compare alpha-chloromorphide to low doses. A guy with known seizure issues willfully consuming an infamous convulsant poison doesn't strike me as the best thought out plan in the universe.

I have no ambitions to bend my spine over backwards far enough to suck my own dick, donald 'narcissistic ambulant scrotal teratoma autofallatio dilletante' trump style.

Really, that isn't a look that would look good on me, foaming at the mouth, eyeballs rolling into the back of my skull as I stuff my head up my own rectal sphincter, bent backwards until my spine breaks, assuming I don't first choke on my own colon, definitely not stylish, attractive, or befitting a man of the autie species.

I'm all for exploring unusual drugs, but bioassaying outright poisons isn't an area of my admittedly deep interest in toxicology I have. If poisoned somehow accidentally, or by an animal, then for sure, I will eagerly (whilst being treated in as quick and appropriate a manner as possible of course) take note of things such as the time course, the subjective sensations, the external effects, any aftereffects, since if I am going to be miserable and feeling sorry for myself after, fr.ex being given a nip by a momma Latroectus spider who'd just given birth to two egg sacks, and was for once, far from her typical placid 'run and hide and try to pretend I'm not here if I can't see you, you can't see me either' approach to vibration, such as that of fingers delivering post-laying cricket snacks to my wee lady's very maternity bedside, and going for me defensively, to somewhat of my shock, knowing just HOW non-confrontational Latros are as a family, even that, accidentally provoked bite, my fault of course, not her's, surprised me a lot even after laying her egg sacs, when feeding my sadly, and truly abhorrent way of being murdered to a spiderling, death of my girl and her young, after the pigfilth raided my place on a blatantly trumped up, false premises warrant just to gain entry and inflict what damage to lab equipment they could to spite me, and that time even MICROWAVING my wee girl and her children, both the mother brown widow and all her babies in the one egg sack which had had time to hatch, and the other one destroyed the same way, as yet unborn.

Butchered, MURDERED in cold blood and hatred of that which does not appear to conform to typical society, law breakrer or not, and certainly despising an autie who just has too much of a far, FAR too deeply-rooted and inherent bent towards the siren song of the scientific arts to even contemplate allowing such bullies and thugs to deprive him of the lab he loves so much, his life's work and personal, utterly private sanctum sanctorum, Even it's twice being utterly destroyed, that just raised his blood to boiling point and hardened his resolve, dedication and determination that it must rise once more phoenix-like from the ashes of it's own death, to rise, in greater glory and sophistication than ever the previous incarnations were, in either of the twofold cases of total destruction, blatantly illegally, being charged with no crime whatsoever. The filth ought to know better than to try and take from a Kanner's autie, his personal most treasured creation and possessions in all the world, that are fuelled by speshul interest-backed devotion and dedication, and a true labor of love. Break even a single piece of glass out of malice, on the part of some porcine excrement made flesh, and his own rule is to of course buy a replacement piece of the kit , but to buy another two, and hell, every malign blow ever struck against my precious, priceless personal temple-shrine to his inner spazz, free to feel even more at home, just sitting there to read journal articles and books, as a general polymath, but one with a particular predilection for nothing less than the sheer innate biological all-consuming desire to personally claw every fragment of knowledge and discovery from the most basic way to cook a bowl of porridge and flavour it to personal perfection, to literally, byte by byte, personally encoding each and every single possible bit, byte, Qubit, spin- or/and valleytronic possible piece of information-devouring processes and the information in existence, as if addicted to mainlining technology-knowledge as if shooting up the distilled and salted essence of knowledge and technology itself, every single possible thing to be known in the physical universe, and any other universe that might form a greater multiverse, although at the same time that ABSOLUTE possession of every single piece of knowable data in any form of existence ever, would be a nightmare worse than death, for it would mean the prolonged life span through technological means for a long long time, and at the same time, if actually knowing EVERYTHING, it would bear with it, IMO, the curse of knowing that, and knowing that there is thus, not a single drop more knowledge that is there to be learned and known fix of discovery, creativity and research bearing fruit of further knowledge cannot bee, for all, a factual singularity, in effect, would take root, and there would never again, in a long eternity, be a single discovery left to make.

To know all, and to know one knows all...that, whilst at once, that to be strived for, is only so in the knowledge that it would be impractical to accomplish the goal. For having done so, the journey must perforce end, and the knowledge-junkie autie that I am, would know there'd never be another fix in existence, and a fate worse than death, indeed, a kind of living, soul-destroying death, in the absolute and secure total comprehension that another jolt and euphoric fix of a discovery anew, or creative process spawned by oneself had been made that can be made, and that which at the base level, codifies my very being, has been reduced to a state never to know such bone-deep ecstatic delight again, upon harvesting another juicy piece of knowledge.

*shudders*....the path, would essentially end in a singularity. The journey at a forced end, never to feel the sweet, delicious rush of learning a thing ever again in what would undoubtedly be a massively prolonged lifespan due to technological innovations. Its an odd thought, to know that it is a mercy that one cannot accomplish that which life itself drives them to seek. The journey being just as innately, fundamentally vital as the discoveries themselves, and that marrow-deep insatiable HUNGERING, to be sated without possibility ever to know again the psychological lust for imperative continual knowledge-acquisition....that is a grim thought that has, literally, given me some of my most chilling nightmares, in the past.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Sekio-thought the process was selective for the most part for the 6-monoacyl dihydromorphine esters?

 

[sekio]

This is certainly a cool thread. Limpet and Clubcard Write A Book On Opioids.

The literature would tell you that, but a birdy told me ~2mL of the commercial HBr in acetic added to a solution of ~0.4 g/mL codeine in acetic acid, cooked at 80-100C for 2 hours (exclusion of moisture with a drying tube , and an efficient condenser, is fine, there is no need to run the reaction in a pressure vessel, although you can if you like), makes a mixture of 6-acetoxy-DHM and 3,6-diacetoxy-DHM. I don't know what salt form but it's very likely the HBr. Presumably in an aqueous basic workup the 3' position hydrolyses fast enough that you isolate the 6-acetoxy compound exclusively, but if you go the "easy way" and simply remove all volatiles you are left with effectively anywhere from 4:1 6-acetoxy-dihydromorphine to dihydroheroin hydrobromide, to 1:2, depending on various mystical factors I will not elaborate on here. And if you wish you can always add a step where you just add maybe 0.7eq Ac₂O and reheat after doing the acetylation-demethylation, it just makes for more shit to evaporate. But that whole reaction makes sense that it would not be selective, compare the synthesis of "black tar heroin" - cook the shit out of opium in acetic acid and you produce at least some heroin. Certainly not near quant yield though. It's just a simple acid catalysed acetylation. And as 6-aco-dhm is effectively the active pharmacological element when you ingest dihydroheroin I never saw the need to convert the mixture entirely to one or the other. A binary mixture is fine too.

The reaction with HBr in water runs nicely to completion but requires elevated temperatures (boiling HBr >120C vs ~90C), long reaction times, and also repeated extractions of the aqueous phase at a specific pH to recover the DHM. The advantage of switching to acetic acid or some other solvent is the conjugate acidity of water is no longer a limiting factor in how effectively acidic the HBr can be. And yeah, the substitution of propionic acid, butyric acid, etc. would be "obvious to those skilled in the art".

Does anybody know how long morphine can be stored in water or additives that can slow down or stop degration?

Presumably if you store it in degassed water, it's stable for many years. One reference says aqueous morphine solutions are OK for at least 3 months, and that oxygen and excessively low or high pH are the main factors to avoid. Another study investigated morphine sulfate stored in plastic syringes, and came up with a "shelf life" of 20 weeks (4.6 months) when stored without preservative and 33 weeks (7.7 months) with preservative. One more study says you can freeze and microwave the solution in polypropylene or polyolefin (LDPE, HDPE) plastics with no loss of efficacy for at least 2 months.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Heh Sekio. Well I couldn't do that without the inspiration of the real sound, decent guy who taught me the demethylation-esterification process in question.


Although, I actually was contemplating, earlier today, that long hence, later in life, what an idea it might be to write a book of my memoirs, from barely out of diapers self-taught mushroom hunter teaching himself to read with a mycology textbook, through The Hive days, earning a set of wings, and going from the thrill of first producing a tiny sample of white phosphorus and distilling it, from the red allotrope culled, over a long time, from match striker pads, not to make meth, but for the sheer child's delight in mastery of it's fascinating allotropic change, and ownership of a lump of one's very own cold fire, crafted by that child's own hand, to accidental belching up of acrolein from the sink drains flushed (NEVER something that'd go down the drain now obviously, but take into account, I was very young, and had no teacher but books and experiment plus creativity and speshul-interest determination and drive, without even a real science education in my first special ed school, none, and realizing that even though I was naturally bent that way, I HAD to provide for my own chemistry and biology education and go hawking scrap metal plundered from derelict buildings and flower bouquets off the back of a bike one moment, to surgery on truck batteries and car batteries the next, removing the lead, the sulfuric, the lead sulfate and PbO2 content and refilling with saturated salt water and common dirt, carefully resealing them so as to reclaim the good bits, then sell emptied, worthless husks on to the scrap merchants. Not honorable, I know, but back then, as a little kiddo, I decided ripping them off on metal sales with added dirt and rocks, and lead cast around bricks and stones was worth that, because it was done knowing I HAD no other option for a scientific education, and that if I didn't do it, including paying for it, and having otherwise, had I not provided for funding off my own exertions and business endeavors, a mere one measly UK pound a week.

Which obviously isn't going to keep a preteen chemistry and biology knowledge-junkie in concentrated H2SO4, alkali metals, alkyl halides and the like.

Which, in my youth, as still, such things are as indispensable and vital resources, as food and drink are, or the oxygen I breathe. I'd lose it, totally, and go quite insane without the lab. I put it down to being autie as hell, but it is my life's work, even though I've had to rebuild, after wrongful porcine raids twice, from scratch, but as a bigger, better, more well equipped and stocked incarnation, that also serves not just as my canvas for creative expression, but somewhere I can retreat, just to be at total peace and contentment, in my own personal private sanctuary, that I KNOW that no other, will enter and disturb me, and where I can simply go either to create, to experiment, to get that addiction to knowledge as a polymath well-stocked with repeat shots of knowledge earned right to the jugular, metaphorically speaking, as that is one place I have never, ever injected, save when in hospital with a PICC line fitted once, which just needed connecting to a rig loaded with morphine or prope and a plunger depressed. I've never used a needle there, and never will either. The line was there, so it got used for other purposes the hospital had not got in mind when in private and unobserved but otherwise, I speak, strictly metaphorically.

Or, sometimes, I'll go to the lab, and just sit at the bench, to read my latest journal printouts of interest enough to commit to paper copy, or my books on science, peruse my copy of The Genus Claviceps, or books on the medical practices and techniques of the 17th century physician, just because I like to be there, surrounded by the glassware that I've built up over the years since the horrendous, unforgivable porcine destruction in entirety of my pride and joy, now rebuilt better than ever, just sat there reading among the 10-liter four neck RBFs, the Kipp gas generator, the tanks of spent chromic acid, the still pots and vacuum pumps and god only knows what custom bits and pieces in operation in the background, the microwave, and all the rest, with the reagent shelves stocked to bursting, in many cases with reagents prepared by personal effort until success and satisfactory yields were had, and the end products purified via repeated redistillation (fr.ex CrO2Cl2, ICl, Br2, purrty nuggets of elemental silicon prepared by metallothermic reduction 'just because I can, and at the time, hadn't as of then the ownership of some pieces of elemental Si, wrought by the hands of an admittedly lifelong tech-addict, but a craftsman and artist at heart, that just got served with that specific set of interests inbuilt as foremost amongst the delights of being a polymath)

One day, I think I actually will write up my memoirs as a book, once I'm far too aged to be worth arresting and shutting down, not just a book on opioids though, but more the life account of a kanner's chem/biohacker, botanist, mycophilic mycophage determined to try eating pretty much every findable species of non-endangered esculent fungal life that I ever come across in my many expeditions through the forests, up the mountains, over the meadows and pastures bagging various tasty Hygrocybe and Hygrophorus and Camaryllophyllus pratensis (meadow waxcap, a particularly tasty species, big buggers, grow all over where my now dearly departed fraternal side grandparents used to live up in yorkshire, and which I'd bring back after a long walk, as a wee kid, to set the table with a day-glow multicolour feast for both the palatte and the eyes, what with the vivid colours of the waxcaps)

So much accumulated experience, through, pretty much self direction and reading, and practical experiments, as well as much accumulated woods-lore that I'd hate to die or become more obscure because I neglected to pass it on, like how to turn the fly amanita, always listed as poison, into both food, medicine and cooking/table condiments that will turn a roast beef joint or slab of fillet steak from great meal to something if people knew how good it was the way I cook it with a fly agaric and peppery boletus-featuring multi-ingredient red meat spice powder, you'd get people fighting wars and plundering nations just to get the stuff.

Poison? inedible? some of the things that go into that custom spice mixture are always listed as such, including some of both, but sicken it does not, but gratify the palate and the stomach it sure does.

And with fly agaric specifically, I've cultivated a relationship, so to speak, working with it, to use it as medicine, as well as food and condiment/spice and flavour enhancer. that includes knowledge gained through experience over a lifetime so far applying it in various different ways, from aforementioned steak spice ingredient, to a tea which will ward off the discomfort otherwise to be induced by a several mile trek in a howling winter snowstorm blizzard, wearing nothing from the waist up but a leather jacket left unzipped, bare chested, and feeling not one iota of discomfort. Obviously no protection against physical hypothermia, but my tea recipe, with Amanita muscaria as a keystone ingredient, grants both immense stamina, and the ability to just shrug off what would sent most people, even wrapped up in thick gloves and multiple layers of heavy coats shivering back indoors, without even taking notice of the existence of the cold.

Things like that, and how to prepare various native or established/naturalized plants and fungi for medicinal use, of obscure self inventions that I know of, appear in no book I ever have read. I'd just hate for a lifetime of obsessively, addictedly harvested and cultivated knowledge to die with me when the reaper eventually comes to claim me.

I just instinctively find the destruction, the loss of, or even worse, deliberate withholding or restricting access of knowledge to be, what to me, is one of the few truely existing actual literal heresies and abominable sins. It truly feels EVIL, to withhold knowledge for selfish purposes. Makes my skin crawl and me feel physically sickened; when that knowledge could be granted to others who would seek it. To bestow discoveries I've slaved for, so that others could read, and go 'ah-hah, so THATs how you pull XYZ off' then go do so if they desire without days, weeks, months or even years of experimenting and slaving over a self-appointed task before finally managing to carve out a route to success.
,
I just...well..it is instinctual in me, always has been, and it's a thirst that can never be sated, and of course, over a lifetime, eventually will amount to a polymath's wet dream set in print or ebook.

 

[clubcard]

Yes, but HBr in acetic forms dihydroheroin directly in less time, plus it's way easier to work up... keep adding MeOH and rotovapping off MeBr/AcOMe.

Is 5 hours too long? H3BO3 does the magic.

What kind of production-line are you thinking of?

I tried it on a 5g batch and the GC-MS & NMR were clean. A small amount of N-demethylation was the only side-product. It was for an EMCDDA thing so I was 'mag demonstreren'.

There are far more elegant routes to ester formation and specifically ones avoiding List 1 precursors. I was also under the impression 'dihydro diacetylmorphine' was slower acting then H and no more portent than dihydromrphine. Slower acting than DHM hydrochloride in fact. The guys in New Zealand have a LOT of experience in this fields so I talk to them. Forming a methyl ether @ 6 is their chosen route.

I'm not about to copy out my lab-book CC the whole experiment and I've handed out a whole stack of links people can tree. The point is - BBr3 is a damned stupid choice. Just because that was the latest thing in 1954 doesn't mean it's the latest thing in 2011. Just look on Reaxys - that shouldn't take long. Every single facet is written up and I KNOW I've sent the links to people here who are bitching.


I can only presume people are purely interested in the theory because anyone planning to make drugs on a publicly viewable on-line space are going to be looked at very closely. If I write something here, it's because I'm not intending to break the law.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

The HBr/GAA route on DHC does produce an EXCELLENT product. Far, far superior to morphine, to H, and with a most monstrous whallop of an IV rush, it left me physically staggering, holding on to furniture and lurching about after 300mg IV 6-AcO-DHM.

Never had dihydromorphine itself though. But the rush from IV, it lasted a weirdly prolonged time. POSSIBLY due to my having been on memantine at the time (and I love my memantine alright, very nice mixed in with IV prope for example in a sort of memantine/prope dope version of a speedball minus amphetamines or coke or 3-fluorophenmetrazine in there, just 100-200mg memantine and as much prope as floats your boat tolerance wise), but about 3/4 hour, off that shot.

Staggering around like an etorphine-darted giraffe before it goes down, conscious, just..rushing so HARD, and so long, I've never felt anything like it from any other opioid. Even prope. Now, I really want to try the 6-monopropionyl ester of dihydromorphine something fierce, on it's own and mixed with 100-200mg memantine in the same rig. Because if DHM follows morphia in having that anomalous sweet spot at a C3 carboxylic acid ester, for the 6-monoester of DHM, that'll be a rush to blow even the most die-hard, hard to satisfy exotic opiophile chronic pain patient with a cunt of a tolerance and one hell of a picky, finnicky personal set of tastes for what is 'just right' to scratch that itch in just the right spot with a scratcher of just the right sensory texture in the hand.....

That'd even satisfy my tastes, going from the 6-AcO-DHM/memantineball.

And that workup is nice, just as long as one takes into account the fact methyl bromide is to be evolved, and to proceed accordingly, adding MeOH and vac stripping the MeOAc away, pretty elegant IMO, I like it, as for the product, one shot of that stuff will blow your ears out of your arse ring CC. And if mixed with memantine like described, you won't ever forget it.

I can only imagine, not yet having tasted the 6-propionyl-DHM version, that it would be perfection in a morphinan opioid w/IV memantine. Although I've yet to sample desomorphine mind you. Or desomorphine/memantine.

Now theres an idea....

 

[polymath]

I can only presume people are purely interested in the theory because anyone planning to make drugs on a publicly viewable on-line space are going to be looked at very closely. If I write something here, it's because I'm not intending to break the law.

Well, as far as I know, I haven't been able to leave my home for 2 years without cops or numerous informants of cops following me around every fucking time... And they're reading this discussion right now (Hi, guys!).

 

[clubcard]

Well, as far as I know, I haven't been able to leave my home for 2 years without cops or numerous informants of cops following me around every fucking time... And they're reading this discussion right now (Hi, guys!).

Quite.

They don't have to bother physically following when people leave such a wonderfully complete digital trail for them to follow. In a world overflowing with totally uncontrolled material, who in their right mind goes straight for stuff clearly covered by the MoDA? Lacks imagination. People seem to have a romantic view of smurfing. Getting a LWB transit and driving a bunch of dolies around and about is a great way to be highly visible and those kinds of people will swap a possession of class A charge for a name. Madness. I'm pretty well versed in the NZ scene and it's like a waiting-list to get the knock.

As it is, I'm just about prepared to confirm traces of WP using something legal with an aryl-methyl ether to see if H2O2 will remove it, but that's as close as I will get. Legal items of commerce is the place to be.