• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

  • Neuroscience & Pharmacology Discussion Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Recent Journal Articles Chemistry Mega-Thread
    FREE Chemistry Databases! Self-Education Guide

Help! Partner's friend about to die from alcoholism. Last chance to help them.

C

clubcard

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
1,483
Hi,
A friend of my partner is a binge drinker. She has tried and failed to escape her dependence and addiction but time is running out and so are options. I know from personal experience as well as data provided by clients that only this drug (without being able to test barbiturates) is left. It really did totally stop the cravings. Now, I'm sure you have read details of pyeyzolam & QH-II-66 but I have none to offer and am not qualified or experienced enough to prescribe medications. I have an idea and I would like some help and feedback. I promise you now that anyone who can help me today will always know that I owe them a favour and my word is my bond. So....

-Clomethiazole is now only used in an in-patient setting because mixed with other CNS depressants, it is awfully toxic.
-If a single dose is provided once a day it will provide 6-8 hours relief from the cravings (and physical harm).
-I cannot find the affinity data on clomethiazole. I really need to know and to be able to explain to this persons doctor WHY I am suggesting the idea.
-I know that the oxazole homologue was made but while the Eunoia Disc has the patent (US 3401172), it has no clinical research data. Does anyone have data on that?
-I am going to suggest supervised consumption with a concomitant dose of an alcohol dehydrogenase inhibitor.
-There are several possible 'add on' medications such as naltrexone, nalmefene or other agent to blunt euphoria but then 2 drugs is already a risk.
-We now all know that all of the good and all of the bad (apart from feeling hungry) is mediated by the α5β1 sub-unit of the GABAa receptors and it is the RATIO of modulation between the 4 diazepam-sensitive sub-units that is responsible for the subjective effects. Should I tell the doctor this? If so, how? I do not wish to talk down to them but neither should or will I talk up to them.
-Are there viable alternatives available in the BNF? If so what? If what, why?
-Apart from 'Strong Vitamin B complex', is there anything else to minimize damage?
-If people believe I am wrong, will you please tell me? Tell me why because I am ALWAYS happy to be corrected but gainsaying is beneath me (but it has never happened here so it's me overthinking things).
-Has anyone else been through such an experience? What data and advice can you give?
-It took me 6 months for the cravings to subside and then I was depressed for a good 2 years. No SSRI helped and at the time the doctor was unwilling to give me chloripramine.
-Is there a specific drug or class of drugs that help with post-acute withdrawal syndrome?
-Is there anything else you have experienced, know or know of I should look into?
-Please provide references if you can find them? If you have a .PDF of a useful paper, can you upload or rewrite in your own words the important bit? My periodical having is costing me 25% of my income as it is so spending ?300 and then discovering only one paper, the ?18 one is of value.
-Have I missed anything.

I would just like to thank you all in advance. A special thanks to all of those people who have already helped me, I love the people here. This really is the last chance. They will be dead in 4-6 months if we cannot find an answer. If it all goes well I can submit a paper to The Lancet (and obviously Lifeline, Michael Linnell, Russell Newcombe (Dr. Nuke), Nick and DDN) so you might want to think about an alias. I use an anagram of my name. If you look at the credits in a lot of Lifeline (Now Linnell Communications) booklets, yes, that one is me - you WILL know the one. Of course, a lot of you DO know who I am, but no full names on the boards, please, employers do search the web and this would not be a good place to show up.
 
Unfortunately we're not a medical advice board here, any discussion on this is going to be purely speculative.

If said person is unwilling to stop binge drinking there is not a lot that you can do, prescribing substitute medications could increase the risk of problems if she were to go out drinking while heavily intoxicated on e.g. BZDs or clomethiazole. And even stuff like Antabuse will eventually wear off and people can refuse to take it.

The first and most important thing is to get the person in question to buy into their own treatment so to speak, if they are willing and able to get better then there are a host of medications available to help, but the most important thing is simple avoidance of alcohol for a long, long time.

Vitamin B complex will help as will an enriched diet/environment.
 
A single dose of chlormethiazole won't protect them all day, and it can wear off during the night. I take the stuff for seizure prophylaxis and response. Lasts about 5-6 hours post dosing, acts very rapidly. Typically alcohol detox uses higher doses by far than a single dose per day, BNF states for chlormethiazole, using the 192mg capsules, for alcohol withdrawal specifically:

Initially 2-4 capsules per os, to be repeated in several hours if needed, 9-12 capsules daily in 3/4 divided doses, for day 1, 6-8 capsules daily day 2 as 3-4 divided doses, day 3- 4 to 6 in 3-4 divided doses, followed by GRADUAL reduction of dose over recommended max 9 days, source-BNF.

Also chlormethiazole IS an alcohol dehydrogenase inhibitor. I'd have expected it to be shitcanned due to its barbiturate-like nature if not for that specific quality making it ideally suitable for alcoholic detox. Bear in mind they CAN'T drink on the stuff, or it'll be a lot less than 4-6 months before they drop dead. Watch them, make sure someone does at least and also, suggest IM thiamine (vitamin B1) supplements, as alcoholics usually have a shit diet, and its prone to leaving people low on thiamine. So aggressive thiamine replacement can help prevent korsakoff's, and also Wernicke encephalopathy, the earlier this is done the better.
 
check into iboga alkaloids. they work better for opiates, but they got rid of my desire to drink as well.
 
Well, it's working so far. They are getting pickups of clomethiazole syrup. If it stops the cravings for 8 hours then it is of benefit. It isn't my preferred answer, but better than anything else. When someone drinks to engage with a void, the cravings aren't just physical but they get enough so they have just started having it delivered - so the doctor must have decided that it is kill or cure and this doctor has lost 3 people this year already... so is open to ideas from people with related but by no means sufficient education to design a regime for that 1 person. Rats & mice yes, humans a little, people as individuals, none.
 
clubcard said:
Well, it's working so far. They are getting pickups of clomethiazole syrup. If it stops the cravings for 8 hours then it is of benefit. It isn't my preferred answer, but better than anything else. When someone drinks to engage with a void, the cravings aren't just physical but they get enough so they have just started having it delivered - so the doctor must have decided that it is kill or cure and this doctor has lost 3 people this year already... so is open to ideas from people with related but by no means sufficient education to design a regime for that 1 person. Rats & mice yes, humans a little, people as individuals, none.
Click to expand...
why cant she go the normal stationary way of clomethiazole dosing,supervised 24/7 by doctors,why does she have to have this extra treatment with clomethiazole pickups?sounds very very fishy to me,sounds to me she needs to find a way where she can skip the clomethiazole to drink alcohol.
I also dont get why you would support this extremely dangerous and and also unnessecary decision clubcard.
For me its sounds much more safe and intelligent if she would stay at a detox facillity with 24/7 supervision
 
Don't forget sci-hub too, for papers mate, its a paywall-cracking tool, you just plug the DOI in, click a button and boom, done, you got your paper.

Sci-hub.tw :) Good to use it even if you don't have to, as well, to send a message to the publishing houses that what they do is unacceptable, ripping people off like they do, the cunts. A LOT of people with legit access use sci-hub regardless apparently; because hitting them in the pocket is the only language those bastards understand.

Glad the chlormethiazole is working for your family member clubcard, its good to hear. And something good about it in my experience (although my dose is just 3x/192mg/d not including extras needed as seizure rescue packs which can mean double that or more if I have a really bad day with seizures) is that I have experienced no physical dependency even despite taking it daily for years. Never had the liquid, whats it like? does it have the same strong smell and taste that chlormethiazole base does?

The tolerance thing might not apply to allowing tolerance to lower without taper of course, tapering is by far the sensible thing to do, just make sure they don't drink on the stuff, if you want them to live. But it is good stuff. And a lot better for someone than pickling their liver with alcohol.
 
Neithman said:
why cant she go the normal stationary way of clomethiazole dosing,supervised 24/7 by doctors,why does she have to have this extra treatment with clomethiazole pickups?sounds very very fishy to me,sounds to me she needs to find a way where she can skip the clomethiazole to drink alcohol.
I also dont get why you would support this extremely dangerous and and also unnessecary decision clubcard.
For me its sounds much more safe and intelligent if she would stay at a detox facillity with 24/7 supervision
Click to expand...

No, the doctor will not give enough clomethiazole for them to mix with alcohol and kill themselves. Clomethiazole isn't used on an in-patient basis and it's only because the local HR team actually agreed with the idea that they get even this much. I am well aware it is NOT a good option - but it is the LAST option.
 
Here in Germany its actually only used in an in-Patient Setting f?r alcohol detox only
 
Neithman said:
Here in Germany its actually only used in an in-Patient Setting f?r alcohol detox only
Click to expand...

I do beg your pardon, i meant in-patient. Thank you for the correction.

Limpet_Chicken - Thank you for that link. It won't last long so download EVERYTHING. The Eunoia Disc just fits onto a DVD and I've pointed you at several articles from it. I believe Erowid also have a copy (since it has their entire database as 1 subdirectory!) and although they have a somewhat chequered past (Casey H told me they basically fingered him and that guy making it in a silo in the US), they always seem friendly. Just be aware that you don't want the disc to lead to anyone who might have some pot in the house or other stupid legal situations.
 
If you need sci-hub links, I'm happy to keep uploading them as I know them. The creator of sci-hub, she has had takedown notices from court cases. She lost the case that Elsevier brought against her, but she doesn't give a shit really, and for every host she has had taken down, several more seem to spring up in their place. She has brought 'comtempt of court' to a fine art form in fact.

And erowid fingered Hardison? what the fuck? you serious? what in bloody hell's own teeth?
 
Yep - they were in trouble so they threw the chemists to the wolves. I even TOLD C to make the (S,S)-2,4-dimethyl azetidine analogue!

My constant mantra is 'keep it legal' and it works.... but 'carry a toothbrush' as Hugo Ter Brake advised me. BTW - HTB is THE guy to get if things look bad. Rudi Fortson is also amazing. At least C ONLY got 20, not life...... Rudi talked to the judge. C is amazing. He's sat in a class A prison and rang me every day through a severe depression I was fighting. A guy who is sat in a cell but is concerned for YOUR well-being should not have been in prison. I cannot speak too highly of the man. Did anyone see the 'Free Casey' blotters?

OT he has pared down the MDMA synth amazingly. Give me a bucket, that is all I need.
 
Last edited:
No, I never did. I don't really have street contacts. Which, RCs aside these days (all my contacts from back in the day I've lost touch with), like 1p-LSD etc. then I'd have to go all the way through culturing ergot. Do have some sclerotia for a start point though and can always get more in season :)

So, what exactly happened with erowid? it was actually them responsible? that is absolutely disgusting if its true, I'd lose all respect for them if they've done such a fucking cuntish thing as that. Thats ruining people's lives, and being complicit in the very thing they claim to fight against. Fucking hypocritical, lying shiteating bastard sons of cunts.

As far as keeping it legal...can't, here, really, not with the bitch May usurping power. 'everything that isn't nicotine, caffeine or alcohol' is rather inclusive. Here, you've just got to say 'fuck this shit' and make sure you don't get caught. As far as a toothbrush...well they do make good cleaning implements for smaller flasks and for scrubbing ground glass joints. And I have wondered about whether or not those ultrasonic toothbrushes of the electric kind and whether they could be used for sonication of solutions, with a metal probe attached to the end, for things like catalytic applications, or for activating magnesium for grignards.
 
Limpet_Chicken said:
No, I never did. I don't really have street contacts. Which, RCs aside these days (all my contacts from back in the day I've lost touch with), like 1p-LSD etc. then I'd have to go all the way through culturing ergot. Do have some sclerotia for a start point though and can always get more in season :)

So, what exactly happened with erowid? it was actually them responsible? that is absolutely disgusting if its true, I'd lose all respect for them if they've done such a fucking cuntish thing as that. Thats ruining people's lives, and being complicit in the very thing they claim to fight against. Fucking hypocritical, lying shiteating bastard sons of cunts.

As far as keeping it legal...can't, here, really, not with the bitch May usurping power. 'everything that isn't nicotine, caffeine or alcohol' is rather inclusive. Here, you've just got to say 'fuck this shit' and make sure you don't get caught. As far as a toothbrush...well they do make good cleaning implements for smaller flasks and for scrubbing ground glass joints. And I have wondered about whether or not those ultrasonic toothbrushes of the electric kind and whether they could be used for sonication of solutions, with a metal probe attached to the end, for things like catalytic applications, or for activating magnesium for grignards.
Click to expand...

what do you mean with erowid being responsible?responsible for what?would interest me
 
Clubcard, with respect to the doctors not giving out enough chlormethiazole for them to kill themselves in combination with alcohol, thats rubbish.

IIRC when keith moon from the band The Who died, whilst he'd swallowed a whole fucking load of the things, (30+ caps) on autopsy it was found only 5 or 6 had opened and released their contents. Which means he must have died pretty, rapidly too, IMO, as in collapsed and DOA rapidly because I take the capsule type and they open pretty quickly, if I don't wash them down with a (non-alcoholic) drink so as I get to taste the stuff while it goes down and feel the burn in the back of my throat, then opening before they even get to the stomach isn't uncommon at all). Keith moon apparently took 32 of the things, but only 6 had released the contents, and he was doubtless already sauced. If your relative takes up dynamiting toilets, then you really should check him into an in-patient clinic... (I'm not taking the piss out of your loved one, keith moon had a major thing for blowing up toilets apparently)

The stuff really, REALLY doesn't play well with alcohol. I've heard tell of people, hardened alcoholics on it, necking a couple of miniatures and ending up green around the gills, on the floor. I HAVE drunk alcohol on the stuff, but I never drink much, and it really potentiates alcohol massively, even a small amount of alcohol ends up hitting like a ten ton truck. Thats off a couple of shots and 2-3x192mg caps. Even that, I don't recommend anybody actually try, its not unlikely to land someone in hospital if they aren't used to the chlormethiazole. I don't worry too much myself, but thats because I'm not really much of a drinker, and I've been taking chlormethiazole for a long time)

So you really do need to supervise your family member, or have someone there to make sure they don't drink. Its not so sensitive that anyone is going to pass out or get sick from washing their mouth out with alcoholic mouthwash, but it really takes very little alcohol. And don't think just because of the amount of chlormethiazole they are scripted, that they can't end up dead if they screwed up with it, that neglects to take the alcohol into consideration, and the extent of the potentiation. There's both the alcohol dehydrogenase inhibition to take into account, plus the fact that chlormethiazole can more or less be thought of as a non-glutamatergic barbiturate. (barbs are also AMPAr negative allosteric modulators)

As for erowid, I was referring to what clubcard said, about them getting in some sort of legal trouble and dropping Casey Hardison, the acid chem legend in it, throwing the authorities a sacrificial lamb to get out of hot water.
 
I don't think they ever took plasma samples so just what he consumed remains unknown. Agreed, witnesses say he only had a couple of glasses of wine and they recovered the capsules from his stomach BUT he could have taken a handful - nobody ever worked out how many there SHOULD have been left and how many their were actually left. I did consider that and many other cases of negative outcomes and so did the GP. It isn't my province to prescribe and the GP & local HR team worked out the treatment regime. I just pointed out that 1 option was left.

From what I can see, they are about to suffer hepatic failure so this is classed as palliative or salvage therapy. I don't know which term is appropriate.

If a qualified MD would like to chip in, I would certainly be interested as to their opinion. I've kept them anonymous even from people who know us so I believe I have stayed within the moral obligations expected from HR workers. I've written a lot of HR stuff over the decades but with Z-drugs and now G-drugs (HR naming - no my own), it seems people are prepared to take any and all psychoactives. Doctors are still happy to provide Z-drugs to the alcohol dependence which is just as hazardous as clomethiazole when mixed.
 
I'm not saying its a bad idea, just pointing out that chlormethiazole isn't just your average depressant when it comes to causing trouble with alcohol.

I can't see Z-drugs being anything like as harmful with alcohol as chlormethiazole, Z-drugs are, for all intents and purposes, crap.
Also what are G-drugs? I'm presuming they don't mean sarin, soman and friends :p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top