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Gnostic Christianity MEGATHREAD

Doesn't limiting God make It less...godly?
 
Doesn't limiting God make It less...godly?

Exactly, God can only do what is logically possible for God to do, for example, God couldnt cease to exist, and exist at the same time, if that were possible, nothing could be true. Its tantamount to philosophical absurdity. Another example in the bible says God cannot lie, meaning that God cannot propose something that is outright not true, and then pass it off as true, this is a violation of logic as it would require an attribute of God to be self contradictory which isnt an attribute that is logically possible for God to possess. The only limitations God has is that God cannot sin, His very existence necessitates this ontologically speaking, but then that isnt a 'limitation' but a measure of His perfection, maximal greatness. God cannot be "not perfect" where as we can, and in fact arent, moreover, we do things every day to prove we arent perfect.

Heres a fun one.. God is omniscient, so what does He think about? Thoughts represent the entertaining of and transition of ideas, discovery, learning ect.. These are not afforded to God because He has all knowledge that can be known, or maximal knowledge. What is the point of learning if you already have maximal knowledge, and doesnt that make learning a limitation? I believe it does, but then humans are limited.

The incomprehensible scope of Gods greatness, in every capacity is beyond the human ability to understand, because it would require us to be equal to God, which is impossible, and we prove this daily with our faults, our lack of knowledge, our inability to cope with things that cannot affect God the way it does us, necessarily.

Kinda the point God makes when He says "My ways are higher than your ways, my thoughts are higher than your thoughts". We try to play like we are gods, but we are riddled with ontological qualities that are antithetical to, and therefore disqualify us from godhood.

We couldnt even know we arent perfect without a standard of perfection, which is God. It truly is amazing to think about and Im so thankful for my existence to even be aware of these fundamental truths, truths that are often overlooked, incidentally, by people with 'lack of knowledge'..
 
What if God isn't perfect? What if God is still working on it, and this Universe is one that God finally managed to achieve such an impeccable equilibrium and balance of elements to allow our tiny little speck to flourish into the Eden that it could potentially be (if humans don't keep fucking it up)? We live in a free will Universe, perhaps God granted us that power or perhaps God just seeded the reaction and let it fly to see how it worked and is intentionally not interfering. Maybe God wants our help to continue sorting it out and discover the same potential that God possesses.
Anyway I don't necessarily see God as a single omnipotent entity. Perhaps there are many levels to this machinery, and our creator(s) are just one level up in the evolutionary scale, just as we are beginning to enter the this stage of creating completely new life in our own image, whether it be biological, synthetic or a hybrid. Our creators may still be seeking their God and levels beyond their current reach, but they have the same basic encoding that all successful life contains, which is an innate desire to create and persevere as life, and I think by fulfilling that creative destiny we become aligned with the ultimate creator consciousness.

I like the ideas of Pantheism, in which God is within all and is the whole of the Universe, and Panpsychism, in which the Universe is consciousness, and God is like a ghost in the machine and the machine is the Universe as an unimaginably immense computer, and God can travel through these etheric wires, shaping and tuning anything along to the way, destruction and creation to maintain balance and inch closer to perfection. Humans, because we do have this power of consciousness, may be able to tap into that greater network and activate ancient wisdom encoded into the fabric, inching towards realizing our highest purpose as divinely-powered counter-entropy agents, eventually creating our own Universes or discovering a higher level Universe outside of our native dimensions.

With all the visible evidence of an intentional creative force because of all the absurdly improbable balances (like sextillion to one if it was left to chaos) it only makes sense that a consciousness had a hand in the orchestration, one that is everlastingly omnipotent and omniscient because it is everywhere and everything, one that is so great that it exists outside of our known Universe, a Universe that birthed our own Universe just as we birth new generations, and we are entangled to it because we came from it. That's what I mean that God may not be singular in that way but as reflections made in Gods image, and the whole of the hologram is within us, (like how there are 33 million Hindu gods, and all are part of one, Brahma) and the more that we come together with our pieces of the puzzle, the more we listen to that subtle signal in the etheric wires to find and fulfill our purposes, the clearer the image of God becomes, and the clearer the channel to God's Source.

I could go on replying to the hypothetical with additional hypothetical but I'm on a phone for now :p
 
which god?
I explained a bit more further in the post, that it could be referring to any number of gods. Initially I was playing to the belief of a singular God, but if there was a singular entity given credit for engineering this Universe, I would be referring to that. Since we don't know for sure, why not consider that it could be any of God's manifestations responsible for the Universe's creation, and likewise for humanity's creation (possibly 2 separate gods)?
 
I explained a bit more further in the post, that it could be referring to any number of gods. Initially I was playing to the belief of a singular God, but if there was a singular entity given credit for engineering this Universe, I would be referring to that. Since we don't know for sure, why not consider that it could be any of God's manifestations responsible for the Universe's creation, and likewise for humanity's creation (possibly 2 separate gods)?

Ill explain why I dont consider God as having multiple manifestations. Logically speaking, there cant be belief systems contrasting with one another that can be valid at the same time, at the least, one is correct, the rest are necessarily wrong, this is a principle of logic no one can deny, one of the universal truths reality exists on. My own experiences with Jesus Christ directly, while subjective of course (you arent me, so you only have my testimony to go on, hence the subjective nature of my claim), are impossible for me personally to refute, Jesus Christ is the only living God, the God incarnate of Holy writ, I dont say that like "Maybe its true" or "I could be wrong", I say that as a fact, and that is a fact that I believe will collide with every human being at some point in their existence, either in this life or the next. Your next statement would likely be "Prove it" or "but how do you know if you are correct", but proving God to someone that God has distanced Himself from is impossible, at least from the bibles perspective. God is not my lapdog, and Im not his event coordinator, I am a servant, and if in fact He has distanced or as scripture teaches, hidden Himself from a non believer due to their rejection of Him, or refusal to acknowledge Him, then its necessarily impossible to prove God to that person, that is the biblical position, but its the place I was in as well, I rejected the God of the bible most of my life, never really knowing if He was who He said He was. God isnt falsifiable, which I knew before I gave my life into Christs hands, I guess thats why I was agnostic most of my life. But Christ delivered me, He saved me from my own destructive nature and empowered me, in that my life pulled an immediate 180, I credit Jesus Christ with all of this, and even if someone put a gun to my head, death would be the better option before denying Christ, its that profound. That is a hard thing for someone without my experience, Im no theologian, but after I gave my life in His hands, I set my mind to study, I read my life in scripture over and over, my faults, my sin, why we do the things we do, the depression, the pride we have the circular reasoning that keeps us trapped in addiction, it all makes absolute perfect sense, but none of us need a bible to examine ourselves, we are our own worst enemies, the bible just elaborates why. I cried out to Christ in desperation, He answered.

Being a Christian was quite possibly the furthest notion from my mind for most of my adult life, and Im actually still adjusting, but after 12 years of being married to my wife, having no children, my wife and I prayed, and in two years we were given 3 sons (two of them identical twins). I dont believe in coincidence, and if in theory this was all coincidence, Im truly the luckiest man alive. I credit Christ for the empowerment that led to my ability to kick drugs. Some people kick drugs because they get scared, realizing it could actually end their lives, this is wise, but may not last. I was delivered, and I share my testimony on the matter to help others who want to have an entirely new perspective, one that comes from God Himself, and the generous knowledge and wisdom that comes with it. Knowledge is an accumulation of data, wisdom is the correct application of it, all of us were endowed with an intrinsic knowledge of God, but we typically choose to serve ourselves, the created, rather than God, the creator, as a result, God distances himself from us and we struggle to experience His presence, if at all, leading to unbelief.

I read all of your post, but the reason I asked which god is for a couple reasons. You brought up more than one belief system, and I wanted to know specifically which you were referring to. In both Jewish and Christian theology, God is only referenced as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, there is no evidence to the contrary, so I see why you would ask the question, what if god isnt perfect, but you arent asking about the God of the bible because He isnt defined any other way, so your question is the result of unbelief and scientific inquiry, not that you have experience with mulitple deities, or have information about their ontology. The 'what if' stems from the fact that you do not know if the God of the bible is actually true, so you have doubts. I get that totally, I had the same questions you did, but what Christ did for me, the effect my faith (trust) in Him has had on my life, is undeniable. Im in what I thought was a Christian thread, so I dont feel my statements are out of bounds, and while I respect others right to believe what they choose, I try to offer something to people they can invest in with an equitable return, not simply something you believe in, something you experience and will in fact reshape your entire reality with a joy no drug can match.

Im not a 'great' Christian, Im only learning because this is new to me, and I dont really understand the churches, they often confuse me more than anything, so I rely on prayer and the insights God reveals generously to me, insights available to anyone willing to approach God in humility. Im not a humble man, but I was humbled by my own self destructive nature and I cried out, this is when God answered me, and opened my eyes.

I dont get into the arguments or the back in forth I see so many Christians engaging in with people, I dont understand it, they act is if they are somehow morally superior, which Christ teaches against. I could easily write a post as long as this one detailing my own faults. Christ is quoted as saying "These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me'.. The Church, if the bible is true, is at its worst as time progresses and Christ has quite a lot to say about the church and its shortcomings, the cluster we have today called Christianity is in direct contrast to what Christ taught, which is why Christians are doing more harm than good, Im still attacked for my faith in Christ, but not from unbelievers so much, but from the church itself. Its nuts..

Please let me know if you want me to clarify or further expound on something Ive said, and thank you for your time, I know how valuable it is, so having you invest in this dialogue is something Im very thankful for, if not, thats cool too.
 
Christ is righteous I have no doubt, and I believe in the power of Christ consciousness to transform the world for the better. If I have to identify with one of the world's major religions I choose Christianity to remain true to my heritage, baptism and teachings. The thing is though I love entertaining all possibilities because there is so much mystery. That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian, other reasons are the church as a corrupt institution of Man. The whole thing has a murkiness, and I seek clarity. I attended catholic high school and was quickly taught a contextual interpretation of the bible, so I don't take scripture as 100% literal truth. Why didn't the editors of the bible or just lay the word out plain as day to not make any room for interpretation? Why has the modern day bible eliminated some of the most powerful and empowering messages of the original bible? (Gnositicm is my most closely aligned denomination because it seeks to restore these repressed teachings) My answer is because the church did not want the peasants to know the whole story. Keep it simple to keep the masses more easily controlled, keep telling them to give their riches to the church or thou shalt not enter the kingdom of heaven, stuff like that I can go on and on.
But I appreciate your comments, and you are correct, if God is one who is omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent , it is hard to see how God could be any less than perfect.
 
That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian

I think I may have set the wrong precedent for this conversation, and while I do have reservations about the Church, to write it off because it has some bad adherents is tantamount to cheating yourself of the health benefits of going to the gym because there are people there who are out of shape, it just isnt a rational approach. I havent abstained from going to Church, or working with other Christians, rather I try to keep true to teachings of Christ, and while many Christians may be misrepresenting Christ, I take that as an opportunity to share with them what Christ has done in my life in hopes they turn from bankrupt doctrinal views, or bickering over who has the best translation of the bible, it simply isnt the crux of the problem, yet they make it out that way.

Im not really on board with Gnosticism as a sect or belief system, as I find it antithetical to Christs teachings. Spiritual enlightenment, or having the 'mind of Christ', as it is written, is only attainable from a place of humility, perhaps one of mans greatest struggles and that only happens with the help of God, we simply cannot do it on our own. We think very highly of ourselves which clouds our ability to see Gods glory, and this leads to pride, something more in common with satan, who attempted to exalt himself above God , which can and does lead to a false sense of elitism concerning knowledge. My understanding of knowledge is that in fact does begin with a proper observation of God, and the disparity between God and man.. Once we recognize that we in fact are not God, or equivalent to God, or that no matter what we do we can never be God, then we start demonstrating to God that we understand our place as the beings He so lovingly created. Empty your cup so that God can fill it, watch what happens as a result. In newage philosophy, a great deception in my opinion, we are told that you should empty yourself in meditation, push everything out of your mind, think of nothing, and focus all your energy on the self, this is a deception of great demonic influence, and will likely lead to self delusion at best, and demonic possession, though unwittingly, at worst.

If you are deceived, how could you know you were deceived? This is knowledge.

Its not about what texts or translation of the bible you adhere to, what 'hidden texts' or documents you think bring enlightenment, this is the backwards approach to gaining knowledge. I found this out when I gave my life to Christ and the answers I sought came from prayer. It makes sense that the Church was initially formed without access to bibles, they had direct insight from God via His Spirit, something that is overwhelmingly missing in the Church today, but not entirely. What keeps people from knowledge of God, or access to the unfathomable wisdom He so generously gives freely is sin against God. The early church didnt rely on texts, they simply werent in mass production at the time, they prayed, and God filled them with knowledge, but they were humble. They knew this so resolutely that they died for these principles.

Tozer wrote that idolatry is in essence the 'incorrect view of God', to which I couldnt agree more. As men we have made ourselves into idols, we offer gifts to ourselves, the drugs are just another form of self worship and ritualistic behavior, and we are stuck in that behavior because we are at odds with God, and when we need help we wonder why He isnt right there.

Seek the Lord while He may be found, this is what is written. It is also written that if you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, but if that is true, then conversely, through sin against God, you are forcing God to distance himself from you, these are fundamental truths you can make an equitable investment in.

My approach to counteracting bad knowledge isnt to finger point, or tell someone they are wrong, but rather explain why God is right, the rest comes on its own. Truth ultimately needs no defenders, it is the end of all of us, something we all will confront sooner or later.

True knowledge, or 'gnosticism' begins with humility and a reverence for God, He will sort out the rest from my experience. Our wisdom is foolishness with God, which is why we should seek His knowledge, and His wisdom, and be content with what Hes willing to impart, ever so graciously I might add.

Hope that makes sense.
 
I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.
 
I can tell you are passionate and devoted, you make a lot of points that would make for a great real-time exchange (seriously, send me a PM and we will talk if you would like). I also sense a darkness in Gnosticism. i read from a distance but do not practice. Their respect for the ways of Lucifer for instance as you mentioned is troublesome.
Humility is very important for spiritual growth, that I agree, but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness.
Your comments on meditation are curious...and made me think, and sure I guess it is possible that emptying ones thoughts in meditation can open a channel to unwanted spirits, bit it can also open channels for healing spirits- its all about tuning in my verbiage. I had a mantra-ish message that came to me spontaneously,
'empty your heart
In this stillness you will find clarity'
I don't believe it came from a spirit of ill intention
It helped me clear up deep emotional tangles, see things a little more objectively, and unify my channels (again in my verbiage).
I do believe there are spirits that work through humans when those doors are open, and it may not be as simple as a black and white, dark and light sides...I believe that is a gross oversimplification.
More reponse later...
 
I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.

You may actually be right about that, my experience with gnostics is limited, I must admit.. If you guys have any recommended resources that you could point me towards to give me a better understanding of what you believe, id be grateful :)
 
but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness.

This might clear up my belief on 'Christ consciousness'.. Because there is a context where I absolutely agree on Christ consciousness, just not from a metaphysical new age perspective.. I forget the name of the books, David someone or other, who teaches on levels of consciousness, with the pinnacle of consciousness being "Christ consciousness" But Jesus will give you that simply by asking, no need to jump through metaphysical hoops.

1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Having the mind of Christ is the empowerment through the Spirit of God Himself, the Holy Spirit, or "The Spirit of Christ"

Rom_8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.


I hope I am in keeping with the context with this thread but I certainly dont want to derail it, so If you want I can definitely go with a more private venue via pm if youd like :)
 
But Jesus will give you that simply by asking, no need to jump through metaphysical hoops.

How so? From pondering your whole reply for a few minutes + my own beliefs I fail to see any which in which Christ Consciousness can be achieved simply from asking Jesus for it to be so. If that was the case, why have we not seen a massive amount of awakened and Christ embodying individuals in the most fervent of Christian cultures in the past 2,000 years?


I understand the scripture you've quoted, but fail to see how it makes any point as to man achieving the same. It simply talks of the process and being of holding such a consciousness.
 
How so? From pondering your whole reply for a few minutes + my own beliefs I fail to see any which in which Christ Consciousness can be achieved simply from asking Jesus for it to be so. If that was the case, why have we not seen a massive amount of awakened and Christ embodying individuals in the most fervent of Christian cultures in the past 2,000 years?


I understand the scripture you've quoted, but fail to see how it makes any point as to man achieving the same. It simply talks of the process and being of holding such a consciousness.

Only Christ Himself has the full measure of the Spirit, we are imparted with what God is willing to impart but we can never achieve Christhood, He is perfect and we are not, in fact we are imperfected by our sin against a perfect God. If I could quantify it, it has to do with submission, sacrifice, humility and the denial of the self. As far as the last 2000 years are concerned, I'd say there were millions, possibly billions of men of God who had been given His Spirit, this is salvation. To what degree God works in a person has more to do with how much a person is willing to deny themselves. Christ as the "image of the invisible God" came to teach us, and his teachings are best summed up as 'The denial of the self in favor of observance of the one and only living God'.

The reason so many Christians are struggling is because they refuse to deny themselves, this is a hard thing, but submission to God draws Him near and the power He gives can help us to overcome our self destructive nature. Our physical spiritual interface is the very flesh we are occupying, but that flesh is corrupt, and if left unchecked would gratify every aspect of its nature, which is in fundamental opposition to God. We know right from wrong, but like ink being dropped one drop at a time into a glass of water, we slowly become deluded, polluted by our sin, until finally God has distanced Himself so far from us that we fall into deception, we start crafting ideas about ourselves but those ideas we are crafting are nonsense, we are just playing with our imaginations until our spiritual interface, or our flesh, wears out. Then we will see our creator, our Lord, Christ Jesus, who is God. A God who's glory face to face will expose our every flaw, our every sin, and we will be judged. To not be covered by the blood of the atonement will result in God necessarily acting in accordance with His nature, which is to destroy that which is in opposition to Him, Christ refers to this as hell, something that wasn't specifically revealed until His incarnation and later described through His ministry.

The Glory of God is ultimately incomprehensible to man because we have no ability to attain it, there is only one God, every other entity is necessarily not God. Satan was blinded by his own self worship, being the highest created being, he carries the highest curse of damnation and consequently has the most hate of any entity for God.

Of the gifts God imparts, which serve His purpose and belong to Him alone, mine is knowledge, and my role in the Church is to share that within the body of Christ, for Gods glory, not mine, as it's completely useless to someone without the Spirit of God. You are already shaking your head while reading this because its likely foolishness to you. I'm still a man, I am limited and I can never have the full measure of the Spirit like Christ, but then I'm not Christ, so I'm not expecting that, nor would I dare think I could achieve it, that is blasphemous to even suggest, and I should probably go into prayer over the mere mention of such blasphemy, I truly am a wicked creature, but the Lord has saved me from my own self. We literally are our own worst enemies, and if that doesn't suffice, there are plenty adversaries of the spiritual variety who are lining up to help us with our destruction, of which, lucifer is chief, you know him as satan, the great deceiver, who has tricked mankind into following the lusts of the flesh and deceives men into thinking they can also, like himself, achieve Godhood.

All the new age self centered nonsense that is so pervasive in the world, is chief among those deceptions, yet its taking off like wildfire in a world of self worship. This is very sad...
 
https://www.amazon.com/Not-His-Image-Gnostic-Ecology/dp/193149892X

I don't have the space to reply as I quite honestly disagree with almost everything you've written there. Our flesh is not corrupt, attachment to it is. Christ was not perfect, and we will never be either, he was human. He was the son of God only in that he aligned his consciousness with that of the Creator, and thus lost himself. But not through denial of his divinity. Jesus was not special, he was only successful. Any of us may be as well. The idea that we are imperfect because we are imperfect is the greatest lie propagated by the false god of mainstream Christianity. The ideal of perfection creates a perpetual and neverending cycle of failing/falling because humans cannot achieve it.

You limit yourself if you tell yourself you will never be like Christ. Did he not himself say that you too can know the kingdom of Heaven? Why then would you put him on a pedestal of perfection and unattainability? That goes directly against his word. The reason is that you've listened to this bullshit that perfection is attainable, and until you attain it, you are in some way wrong or less divine than Christ or the Creator. That is the biggest lie ever told.

I apologize for being unable to continue but I quite frankly thought this was a much different conversation than it is.
 
Its not that Christians cant be like Christ, Christianity teaches quite the opposite, "Put on Christ", or "Imitate Christ" are a few quotes that come to mind. But it would appear the disparity here comes from who we believe Christ was, for you, He was just some other human based on what I am getting from you, for me, He is God incarnate, our Creator in human form, the avatar or interface of the invisible living God, made flesh to sacrifice Himself for the sins of mankind, that we might have everlasting life, true life, not in this life, but the next. Ill be physically dead soon, this is of no concern to me because it simply isnt relevant to my existence, its just flesh.

The disparity in who we think Christ is means we would both be defending two different people, rather than discussing a single person, I simply do not know who the Christ you believe in is, He certainly isnt the one who communicates to me, and I do not worship this man you regard as christ, the only commonality between us is that we use a name that is identical for two different character descriptions. Its no different than two people name Tom, same name, different people, the conversation might be the very definition of futility.

Further discussion on the subject is pointless, Id have to die before I give up the truth of who Christ is, my life is just not that important, its who God is that is important to me.

No need to apologize btw, I respect your right to believe whatever you want.
 
Isa_9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every oneto his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
 
Why is Christianity ignoring and even hiding the only worthy Jesus and the teachings of his way?

Jesus couldnt be more thorough about why with this very topic, He quite literally explains the failure of Christianity, but He himself doesnt identify these people as real believing Christians, its a title they carry only, its what the new testament is about, Paul himself warns of falling from true saving grace, getting caught up in false christs, of the which there are many people are deluded with.

"These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" -Jesus Christ, our Lord
 
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