Serotonin Syndrome? Permanent Damage?

[JvovBR]

I have rolled about 6/7 times in my lifetime. In the past 2 months, I rolled 3 times. I hadn't rolled since 2016 before these 3 episodes. On Saturday I took about 3 pills of MDMA and drank about 3 glasses of vodka and Red Bull (I know, very stupid...). On Sunday I felt tired and slow. Pretty much the normal hangover for the day after rolling, I didn't stress it that much. The problem is yesterday (monday) I started feeling very dizzy and weird in the afternoon. I had slept just fine the day before and had eaten decent amounts of food. I do not have a loss of appetite. Then when I tried to go to bed at 1 am of today (tuesday) stuff started getting even weirder. I felt cold, then hot. I sweated a lot. I had shivers. I had random muscle movements. It's bad. When I stand up I feel moderate nausea and everything is just very uncomfortable. It's almost like I have mild panic attacks at times. I can't sleep. When finally almost fall asleep, a random muscle movement or random "body spasm" wakes me up. Am I having serotonin syndrome? I do not have any vision disorders like most people, I don't think. Also, I do not feel any depersonalization. I just feel motion sick and very anxious. I was already a bit anxious before, but now it's unbearable. I'm considering getting prescribed some anti-anxiety meds. I am not rolling ever again, but that doesn't help much since I think I'm never getting cured. Researching this only made me sadder. Tons of people are going through this and many haven't gotten much better. I just hope what I did is not permanent and going away soon, but I doubt it...

 

[Tranced]

Serotonin syndrome is a very serious condition with which you would have experienced acute onset of (very serious) symptoms, not delayed by 2~ days. Same goes for any notion of permanent damage. If you had caused permanent damage/serotonin syndrome, I definitely don't think you would had a fairly timid Sunday with a seemingly normal ecstasy comedown. It is also important to note that serotonin syndrome is usually caused by combining certain drugs with specific serotonin action (i.e SSRI anti-depressents/tramadol/etc), not by taking a seemingly normal dose of MDMA with a few alcoholic drinks and a red bull caffeine drink.

It sounds to me like you are symptom checking. People on this forum who are experiencing medium-long term problems represent a very small demographic of the MDMA consuming population, and have generally found themselves here because there are few other places to discuss such things and bluelight is pretty high ranking on google searches.

The spasms which you experienced when you were falling asleep were hypnagogic jerks, and they are very normal part of falling asleep, but can be exasperated and induced following MDMA consumption and/or bad sleeping patterns/anxiety. They are often accompanied by 'brain zaps' and associated with sleep paralysis, and where MDMA is concerned, they go away after a few days to a week or so. It sounds like you were/are experiencing a normal comedown and freaked yourself out because you didn't know what was going on, and made yourself anxious, further heightened by symptom checking on the internet. In your own words:

It's almost like I have mild panic attacks at times.

It's nothing to worry about, so chill out. Take solace in the fact that you were relatively fine on Sunday. Do some breathing exercises/meditation to avoid any panic attacks, and do something you enjoy to take your mind of things.

This is exactly why 'symptom checking' is often discouraged by medical professionals. There is no reason to draw parallels between what you are experiencing and serotonin syndrome/brain damage, or to assume that two days of normal comedown symptoms mean that you have long term problems, because 2 days is about as close to short term as you can get. If you are thinking like this, then that is perhaps indicative of a naturally worrisome personality, so maybe try to work on your pre-existing relationship with anxiety.

• If people think they have serotonin syndrome, then they should seek medical advice urgently.
• If people think that they have long term damage/brain damage/etc, then they should see a doctor/neurologist.

 

[JvovBR]

Serotonin syndrome is a very serious condition with which you would have experienced acute onset of (very serious) symptoms, not delayed by 2~ days. Same goes for any notion of permanent damage. If you had caused permanent damage/serotonin syndrome, I definitely don't think you would had a fairly timid Sunday with a seemingly normal ecstasy comedown. It is also important to note that serotonin syndrome is usually caused by combining certain drugs with specific serotonin action (i.e SSRI anti-depressents/tramadol/etc), not by taking a seemingly normal dose of MDMA with a few alcoholic drinks and a red bull caffeine drink.

It sounds to me like you are symptom checking. People on this forum who are experiencing medium-long term problems represent a very small demographic of the MDMA consuming population, and have generally found themselves here because there are few other places to discuss such things and bluelight is pretty high ranking on google searches.

The spasms which you experienced when you were falling asleep were hypnagogic jerks, and they are very normal part of falling asleep, but can be exasperated and induced following MDMA consumption and/or bad sleeping patterns/anxiety. They are often accompanied by 'brain zaps' and associated with sleep paralysis, and where MDMA is concerned, they go away after a few days to a week or so. It sounds like you were/are experiencing a normal comedown and freaked yourself out because you didn't know what was going on, and made yourself anxious, further heightened by symptom checking on the internet. In your own words:



It's nothing to worry about, so chill out. Take solace in the fact that you were relatively fine on Sunday. Do some breathing exercises/meditation to avoid any panic attacks, and do something you enjoy to take your mind of things.

This is exactly why 'symptom checking' is often discouraged by medical professionals. There is no reason to draw parallels between what you are experiencing and serotonin syndrome/brain damage, or to assume that two days of normal comedown symptoms mean that you have long term problems, because 2 days is about as close to short term as you can get. If you are thinking like this, then that is perhaps indicative of a naturally worrisome personality, so maybe try to work on your pre-existing relationship with anxiety.

• If people think they have serotonin syndrome, then they should seek medical advice urgently.
• If people think that they have long term damage/brain damage/etc, then they should see a doctor/neurologist.

I still feel everything I said I did before. I think I'm part of that demographic, unfortunately. I have a constant, fast heart rate. My balance is weird when I stand up, and looking around makes me feel dizzy. I've never felt like this before yesterday.

I couldn't sleep for more than 2h. I woke up now because I drank a lot of water and had to piss, but I can't fall back asleep. I feel exhausted and feel my heart beating at 200 mph. I'm gonna take anti-anxiety meds sometime this week. Do you REALLY think this is at most a week long thing? Don't my symptoms indicate that I have a LTC? I am losing my mind, please enlighten me.

 

[JvovBR]

My concern is not permanent damage or serotonin syndrome anymore. It's simply whether I'll be good in days or weeks like some people - or in years, like those guys at the crazy long multi-part thread. I feel motion sick EVERY TIME I stand up. I can't exercise or do anything because the nausea is very strong. I can't stress that enough. I can't find an explanation to the nausea other than LTC. I'm only 18 and don't roll that much, this is a lot for me to digest and all I want is to feel fine again

 

[Tranced]

I think I'm part of that demographic, unfortunately.

Don't my symptoms indicate that I have a LTC?

I don't understand why you think you have a long term comedown when it's only been three days? Why do you presume it to be long term when it literally isn't?

Here is a synopsis taken from your own post:

Saturday: Took MDMA.
Sunday: tired/slow/pretty much the normal hangover/slept fine/ate decent amounts of food
Monday: dizzy/weird/
Tuesday: tried to go to bed (quite late/1am)/things getting weirder/hot & cold flushes/random muscle movements (i.e hypnagogic jerks)/nausea/uncomfortable feelings/It's almost like I have mild panic attacks at times

I do not have any vision disorders like most people, I don't think. Also, I do not feel any depersonalization. I just feel motion sick and very anxious. I was already a bit anxious before, but now it's unbearable.

I feel exhausted and feel my heart beating at 200 mph.

You are experiencing the typical symptoms of both comedowns and anxiety. By your own admission you already had anxiety. Which is fine, but it is important to be aware of it and not let it rule you. Anxiety is very powerful, and very natural. It is a tool used by the body for keeping people healthy and alive.

Sometimes when people take drugs they feel worse. Generally, abstaining from drug use makes things better. Reading about other peoples bad experiences is not going to make you feel better.

Everybody has googled symptoms and been paralysed by the fear that they have x, y or z condition. It's often not a healthy pursuit. If you have problems, then go and see a doctor - they will almost certainly tell you that this is what happens when you take drugs and that you have anxiety.

Instead of reading about other peoples long term drug problems, learn about ways to mitigate and control your own anxiety.

My concern is not permanent damage or serotonin syndrome anymore. It's simply whether I'll be good in days or weeks like some people - or in years, like those guys at the crazy long multi-part thread. I feel motion sick EVERY TIME I stand up. I can't exercise or do anything because the nausea is very strong. I can't stress that enough. I can't find an explanation to the nausea other than LTC. I'm only 18 and don't roll that much, this is a lot for me to digest and all I want is to feel fine again

Millions of people take MDMA, and only a handful post in that thread. At this point, you are statistically unlikely to have any 'long term comedown' like you are reading about. Everything indicates that you are experiencing anxiety and panic attacks. Blindly that this will take years to get over will not help. Tackling the problem head first will. By the way, there are numerous reasons for feeling nausea, including, again, anxiety. Does any of this sound familiar? Symptoms of anxiety.

For the record, I have never ever heard of the LTC outside of bluelight, and I've been taking MDMA for many years (and met a lot of people doing so). I have however experienced what sounds pretty much identical to the LTC. The first time it was triggered when I smoked weed excessively at 16-17 back in 2002. The second time was when I developed severely debilitating anxiety/depression at university in 2012. It included anxiety/depression/apathy/lethargy/fatigue/mild hppd/de-realisation/etc. I got better. Most people I know who have experienced severe anxiety came out of it as healthier people with a more balanced and positive attitude towards life/anxiety/their own minds/etc.

Believe in your ability to do so, and proactively work on your anxiety.

For starters, meditation/breathing exercises can slow your heart rate, practically instantly. Look up some youtube videos; they will guide you through the process in a very succinct manner.

 

[JvovBR]

The thing is my anxiety has always been tapping my foot at most. Never like this. I never had panic attacks. But I think I understand your point. You mean the drug might have made it worse and when I freak out about it, it makes the anxiety (and all other symptoms) even worse. I just wish I could sleep. I wake up every hour or so. I'm exhausted and I can't meditate now to sleep later. I need to sleep now...

 

[JvovBR]

I don't understand why you think you have a long term comedown when it's only been three days? Why do you presume it to be long term when it literally isn't?

Here is a synopsis taken from your own post:

Saturday: Took MDMA.
Sunday: tired/slow/pretty much the normal hangover/slept fine/ate decent amounts of food
Monday: dizzy/weird/
Tuesday: tried to go to bed (quite late/1am)/things getting weirder/hot & cold flushes/random muscle movements (i.e hypnagogic jerks)/nausea/uncomfortable feelings/It's almost like I have mild panic attacks at times





You are experiencing the typical symptoms of both comedowns and anxiety. By your own admission you already had anxiety. Which is fine, but it is important to be aware of it and not let it rule you. Anxiety is very powerful, and very natural. It is a tool used by the body for keeping people healthy and alive.

Sometimes when people take drugs they feel worse. Generally, abstaining from drug use makes things better. Reading about other peoples bad experiences is not going to make you feel better.

Everybody has googled symptoms and been paralysed by the fear that they have x, y or z condition. It's often not a healthy pursuit. If you have problems, then go and see a doctor - they will almost certainly tell you that this is what happens when you take drugs and that you have anxiety.

Instead of reading about other peoples long term drug problems, learn about ways to mitigate and control your own anxiety.



Millions of people take MDMA, and only a handful post in that thread. At this point, you are statistically unlikely to have any 'long term comedown' like you are reading about. Everything indicates that you are experiencing anxiety and panic attacks. Blindly that this will take years to get over will not help. Tackling the problem head first will. By the way, there are numerous reasons for feeling nausea, including, again, anxiety. Does any of this sound familiar? Symptoms of anxiety.

For the record, I have never ever heard of the LTC outside of bluelight, and I've been taking MDMA for many years (and met a lot of people doing so). I have however experienced what sounds pretty much identical to the LTC. The first time it was triggered when I smoked weed excessively at 16-17 back in 2002. The second time was when I developed severely debilitating anxiety/depression at university in 2012. It included anxiety/depression/apathy/lethargy/fatigue/mild hppd/de-realisation/etc. I got better. Most people I know who have experienced severe anxiety came out of it as healthier people with a more balanced and positive attitude towards life/anxiety/their own minds/etc.

Believe in your ability to do so, and proactively work on your anxiety.

For starters, meditation/breathing exercises can slow your heart rate, practically instantly. Look up some youtube videos; they will guide you through the process in a very succinct manner.

How big do you think are the chances it is LTC?

 

[JvovBR]

Another thing is that nausea isn't a symptom of anxiety. It's a symptom of panic attacks, which I don't have all the time, while I do have nausea all the time. Do you think anti-anxiety medication would help? It should, if it's anxiety. Then why people at the LTC thread don't get better when they take it?

 

[Tranced]

The thing is my anxiety has always been tapping my foot at most. Never like this. I never had panic attacks.

I was the same. Everybody whoever develops anxiety is the same. It lurks in the background, then it rears its ugly head and engulfs you.

You mean the drug might have made it worse and when I freak out about it, it makes the anxiety (and all other symptoms) even worse.

Exactly.

I'm exhausted and I can't meditate now to sleep later. I need to sleep now...

Meditation will help you sleep. If you can calm your mind and free it from thoughts and worrying, then you should be able to sleep a lot sooner. The alternative is lying there worrying unable to sleep. Alternatively a benzo could help, or some sleeping tablets containing something like diphenhydramine. I've even had success with inducing sleep using chamomile tea.

How big do you think are the chances it is LTC?

Slim; why would it be? Nobody even knows what 'LTC' is, but either way, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that you have it. That's not to say that your anxiety will so easily and readily dissipate on its own accord. It might, but that's largely down to you.

Another thing is that nausea isn't a symptom of anxiety. It's a symptom of panic attacks, which I don't have all the time, while I do have nausea all the time. Do you think anti-anxiety medication would help? It should, if it's anxiety. Then why people at the LTC thread don't get better when they take it?

Of course it is, and panic attacks are anxiety. Mate, I get nausea from eating bread or consuming too much lactose. It is such a common ailment, especially in times of physical/mental stress etc!

Then why people at the LTC thread don't get better when they take it?

I've got no idea. Which medications in particular? People are different, and medications are different. A lot OTC/prescribed medication can be quite ineffective. The more powerful anti-anxiety medications are also the ones most likely to cause a myriad of their own problems, including addiction.

 

[JvovBR]

I took Rivotril. All my anxiety is gone. I'm gonna keep taking it for 3 weeks as per recommendation and hope I'll be a 100% cured. The only thing I still have is the nausea and I have NO IDEA how to get rid of it. Suggestions? I tried medidating. Didn't help much.

 

[JvovBR]

I was the same. Everybody whoever develops anxiety is the same. It lurks in the background, then it rears its ugly head and engulfs you.



Exactly.



Meditation will help you sleep. If you can calm your mind and free it from thoughts and worrying, then you should be able to sleep a lot sooner. The alternative is lying there worrying unable to sleep. Alternatively a benzo could help, or some sleeping tablets containing something like diphenhydramine. I've even had success with inducing sleep using chamomile tea.


Slim; why would it be? Nobody even knows what 'LTC' is, but either way, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that you have it. That's not to say that your anxiety will so easily and readily dissipate on its own accord. It might, but that's largely down to you.



Of course it is, and panic attacks are anxiety. Mate, I get nausea from eating bread or consuming too much lactose. It is such a common ailment, especially in times of physical/mental stress etc!



I've got no idea. Which medications in particular? People are different, and medications are different. A lot OTC/prescribed medication can be quite ineffective. The more powerful anti-anxiety medications are also the ones most likely to cause a myriad of their own problems, including addiction.

Now taking Citalopram and Clonazepam. Let's hope for the best. Cheers!

 

[Tranced]

^Why are you taking citalopram? Were you already scripted citalopram prior to the MDMA at the weekend?

 

[JvovBR]

^Why are you taking citalopram? Were you already scripted citalopram prior to the MDMA at the weekend?

No. I understand that if I had taken Citalopram WITH MDMA it'd be disastrous, but that's not the case. Now after taking those two meds I feel 80% better. Just a little dizzy, but provably because of all the Clonazepam. I believe I'll be completely recovered by the end of the week. Thanks!

 

[JvovBR]

My Doctor (a psychiatrist that works with my dad - an orthopedic surgeon) told me to take it because of the panic attacks. I trust him more than the internet and I do feel much better after consuming it.

 

[someguyoz]

I still feel everything I said I did before. I think I'm part of that demographic, unfortunately. I have a constant, fast heart rate. My balance is weird when I stand up, and looking around makes me feel dizzy. I've never felt like this before yesterday.

I couldn't sleep for more than 2h. I woke up now because I drank a lot of water and had to piss, but I can't fall back asleep. I feel exhausted and feel my heart beating at 200 mph. I'm gonna take anti-anxiety meds sometime this week. Do you REALLY think this is at most a week long thing? Don't my symptoms indicate that I have a LTC? I am losing my mind, please enlighten me.

Anxiety will produce all these symptoms. I have PTSD and suffered with depression/anxiety for more than 20 years, my heart rate was 125bpm even when asleep (blood pressure 200/110 at one point and it felt as though my heart was bursting out of my chest) and did not go under 100bpm for 10 years. This was due to several very traumatic events, no drugs were involved. Do you realise your own body produces chemicals under stress which can cause exactly the sensations you are experiencing? High anxiety levels causes blood to drain from the extremities to where it is needed to power your heart for the fight/fight reaction and you will quite easily become light-headed and dizzy.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Like other said it's not SS and your just on a comedown after over use - catastrophising like saying something is permanent with zero evidence will only make you anxious - it's one of the basic ways the anxious can prolong things

 

[Tranced]

My Doctor (a psychiatrist that works with my dad - an orthopedic surgeon) told me to take it because of the panic attacks. I trust him more than the internet and I do feel much better after consuming it.

Just a little tip/reminder that it's good practice to arm yourself with knowledge and question everyone, even if they're your fathers colleague/a psychiatrist/authority figure.

I'm 100% certain that the reason you feel better is because of the clonazepam. Clonazepam is an incredibly powerful substance for dimishing/eliminating anxiety. IME it takes about 1-2 hours to kick in, but then pretty much completely eradicates anxiety (depending on dose, of course) for about 24 hours+. This supports the idea that your problems were/are anxiety related.

Citalopram is an anti-depressent in the SSRI class and can take weeks to a month to start taking effect. These things (SSRI's) employ a long term dosing regime, and their effectiveness is often disputed. If you're expecting to come off everything in three weeks, the citalopram might not have even taken effect by then, and you have to taper off anyway due to withdrawals.

Doctors hand out SSRI's like sweets, and as such I've known numerous people to take citalopram. Whilst it apparently does work for some people, I am personally yet to meet a single person who has considered it to be effective in mitigating their anxiety/depression. I watched a girlfriend come off the stuff and it really wasn't pretty; I honestly think this stuff set her back years, and was the route of a lot of her problems. I can still remember the crying and panic attacks the few times her script ran out over the holidays.

So yeah, just bare in mind that starting long term treatment of SSRI's because you're 3-4 days into an MDMA comedown is pretty heavy duty stuff. I actually consider it pretty eager and reckless on behalf of the medical professional.

You're worried about a single MDMA experience causing you long term serotonin problems (again, there is no evidence to support this), yet you're cool with taking medication which directly regulates serotonin, sometimes to detrimental effect, and can actually severely exasperate depression/anxiety.

You are in a situation in which a problem which may well resolve itself within a day or two could lead to you doing the anti-depressant runaround for years. I can understand using something fast acting and short term, i.e clonazepam (although I would strongly advise caution), but I think it's a little soon to be jumping in and committing yourself to anti-depressents. I actually find it incredible that you have been scripted anti-depressents with such speed and efficiency. How soon after seeing a doctor did you receive the script? Did you get some kind of extensive assessment?