Can MDMA permanently damage your brain?

[Nucci37]

I was abusing mdma once a week for 8 weeks. My initial dose each time was between 200mg and 300mg, i would usually redose with another 200mg. One time I used it 2 days in a row and used a gram throughout the night the second day. What i want to know is can mdma change my brain permanently? becuase I am now sober for 5 months and still dont feel the same as I used to. I have alot of social anxiety around people, even my friends and family.

 

[Tranced]

I think it's important to note that having social anxiety does not indicate brain damage, and that a lot of people have underlying social anxiety (or the correct conditions for it to manifest), and come to realise as such during their teens/early twenties (or perhaps later), when they are more likely to be taking ecstasy. Furthermore, MDMA may be an empathogen, but it also has very powerful introspective psychedelic tendencies (hence the days of MDMA therapy/MAPS research etc).

You almost certainly do not have brain damage from MDMA, you are quite simply living the human experience. Overcoming fear and anxiety is a huge part of it.

 

[augustaB]

Neurotoxicity of mdma is a matter of discussion. When used safely, i.e. recovery times between rolls of at least 2 weeks, doses limited to max 180 mg, only one redose an hour after the first, etc. The likelihood of neurotoxicity is very low. But sustained high dose usage at frequent intervals is thought to be likely to greatly increase the possibility of damage.

 

[LawyerLife]

I am going to disagree and say that there most definitely is damage, and it's long lasting. Whether it's permanent is hard to answer. But I have no question that it does fry your brain big time when you do it frequently and/or do a super big dose

 

[catoblepas]

I've known friends who have taken so much MDMA that their cognitive functioning is seriously and permanently impaired.

As a teacher, I've spoken to numerous students who abused MDMA, and it's clear from their speech patterns, critical thinking ability, and writing prowess that irreversible damage has been done to various parts of their brain.

I cannot say how much is too much, but I can say that this powerful substance will most definitely harm you if not used reverently and sporadically.

 

[catoblepas]

Absolutely agree with augustaB.

Simple rule: Don't take too much. Enjoy the magic of a reasonable dose. Space out your rolls at least two weeks, preferably a month. Treat it like a sacrament, which it is.

 

[Swim15]

No one can tell you 100% definitively without before and after brain scans so any opinions are speculation.

However based on the research we have available from humans and animals, I think it's extremely safe to say that there will absolutely be damage after that frequency and dose pattern. 200-300mg would be on the high end of "safe," not to mention redoses or using a gram in a night (seriously what the fuck if you had real MDMA).

Per the research we have in humans, it takes roughly 3-7 months for things to go back to normal after one roll. Hitting it again repeatedly well within that time frame, especially at the doses you were using, will almost certainly cause some damage. How much is also something that is just speculation.

 

[Nambo]

Some people can use mdma without incident and others like myself can fry their brain on the stuff. You really need to take utmost care when playing with something as toxic as mdma can be. Regular users like to make out it's this benign substance which it really isn't.

 

[BlueBull]

I am going to disagree and say that there most definitely is damage, and it's long lasting. Whether it's permanent is hard to answer. But I have no question that it does fry your brain big time when you do it frequently and/or do a super big dose

As said before, having side-effects does not equal neurotoxic damage or a "fried brain" as you call it. It can have side-effects, some long lasting, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that there's a million other things, far more likely than neurotoxic damage, that can cause serious side-effects. It doesn't even have to be physical, any drug can trigger mental disorders that have very strange symptoms that feel very physical and serious. Past research has shown that even in (insanely) high and repeated doses, MDMA does not reliably produce markers of neurotoxic damage

This is an interesting read. Here they injected rats with 10-20mg/kg (!!) over a period of time and didn't reliably find markers of neurotoxic damage:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-006-0322-6

 

[LawyerLife]

Human brains are far more developed and advanced than rat brains. I hope that the camp that advocates that there is no permanent damage is right. But from personal experience I believe that it is.

 

[BlueBull]

I am not saying that there is no permanent symptoms or that there can be no permanent side-effects. I am saying that, given the current data, brain damage is highly unlikely. Consider that there are a vast number of other more likely explanations for the side-effects you see in people. If you're interested read a bit of research and form your own opinion. I am more debating what you are saying because you provide no basis other than personal experience for your claims than because I disagree with them

If we are talking from personal experience anyways, I'll tell you this: someone that is very close to me had a very very bad experience with spacecake about a year ago. It was pretty intense. She has been suffering from about 75% of the symptoms you commonly see on this forum as MDMA side-effects: severe derealization, panic attacks, tremors, brain fog, pins & needles, heart palpitations, flashbacks, mood swings, severe anxiety, visual distortions, hyper-awareness, in the beginning even brain zaps... She has been having these symptoms for a year, which is long enough for members on here to say "I think this is going to be permanent". So should I, based on that, say that weed is probably neurotoxic? No, the weed triggered a dormant panic disorder which is giving her all these symptoms. She has had these for about a year now and only recently is showing signs of improvement. But still there is no part of me that thinks "damn, she probably fried her brain". The mind is a very powerful thing and will fuck you up physically when it is in serious distress. The reason she is now showing signs of improvement? She has accepted that it is all a product of her mind and that it is not permanent. Instantly, improvement.

Brain damage does not heal, the damage really is permanent, yet so many people on here that supposedly fried their brain report feeling better with time and because of them getting on with their lives, worrying less about it. I'm not saying every case is like this but I am saying that a lot of them are. And I'm also saying that going around telling people that, without any basis, MDMA can cause brain damage, will make people start worrying, which is exactly what is causing their symptoms in the first place, worrying and panic

 

[Inds]

Bluebull, our body converts 10% of MDMA into MDA and MDA is proven to be neurotoxic.

 

[BlueBull]

Bluebull, our body converts 10% of MDMA into MDA and MDA is proven to be neurotoxic.

I am not debating whether or not MDMA or MDA can be neurotoxic, I am debating whether or not the most common problems with MDMA heard about in this forum are due to neurotoxicity. Caffeïne, nicotine, alcohol,... all have been proven to be neurotoxic, usually if you take very high doses over a very long timespan. But that does not mean side-effects are per se a product of neurotoxicity, that just means all these substances have the potential of being neurotoxic. I think the occurence of real neurotoxic damage producing noticeable symptoms with MDMA is low, if not extremely low, if not even almost impossible

 

[Tranced]

I am not saying that there is no permanent symptoms or that there can be no permanent side-effects. I am saying that, given the current data, brain damage is highly unlikely. Consider that there are a vast number of other more likely explanations for the side-effects you see in people. If you're interested read a bit of research and form your own opinion. I am more debating what you are saying because you provide no basis other than personal experience for your claims than because I disagree with them

If we are talking from personal experience anyways, I'll tell you this: someone that is very close to me had a very very bad experience with spacecake about a year ago. It was pretty intense. She has been suffering from about 75% of the symptoms you commonly see on this forum as MDMA side-effects: severe derealization, panic attacks, tremors, brain fog, pins & needles, heart palpitations, flashbacks, mood swings, severe anxiety, visual distortions, hyper-awareness, in the beginning even brain zaps... She has been having these symptoms for a year, which is long enough for members on here to say "I think this is going to be permanent". So should I, based on that, say that weed is probably neurotoxic? No, the weed triggered a dormant panic disorder which is giving her all these symptoms. She has had these for about a year now and only recently is showing signs of improvement. But still there is no part of me that thinks "damn, she probably fried her brain". The mind is a very powerful thing and will fuck you up physically when it is in serious distress. The reason she is now showing signs of improvement? She has accepted that it is all a product of her mind and that it is not permanent. Instantly, improvement.

Brain damage does not heal, the damage really is permanent, yet so many people on here that supposedly fried their brain report feeling better with time and because of them getting on with their lives, worrying less about it. I'm not saying every case is like this but I am saying that a lot of them are. And I'm also saying that going around telling people that, without any basis, MDMA can cause brain damage, will make people start worrying, which is exactly what is causing their symptoms in the first place, worrying and panic

Yip, exactly this.

Terms such as 'brain damage' are used a lot around here, and often in an ambiguous fashion. For example with regard to the original post in this thread, social anxiety is in no way indicative of brain damage and to assume that it is would require a serious leap of faith. Social anxiety is a perfectly normal aspect of being human, and a lot of people have social anxiety to varying degrees. The brain is constantly responding and changing to various factors on both a mental and physical level, but it does not mean that it is necessarily 'damaged' just because it is not working how you think it should be (mental stress is actually clearly an important evolutionary advantage).

If you genuinely think you have brain damage, then go and see a doctor, but bare in mind that assuming that having social anxiety means that you have brain damage is probably mostly indicative of a serious underlying anxiety disorder.

 

[augustaB]

Well frankly judging from the horror tales that are published here I would guess that in the majority of cases mdma is not involved but Some Other Substance.
As BlueBull says all kinds of underlying disorders may emerge under the influence of drugs.
In my own case I took something alleged to be LSD in 1967 and had a terrible experience, partly because a person suffering from DTs joined the party.
It took me two years to recover a modicum of balance and I only started to recover completely after taking mdma in 2003

 

[Swim15]

Symptoms can never be correlated to stuff like brain damage...you could have no symptoms at all or you could have some but generall stuff that you "feel" are not indicative of brain damage or not.

From the amount of data we have in humans and animals, I don't know how anyone could look at that kind of use and say that it isn't highly likely brain damage was done regardless of symptoms or compete lackthereof.

 

[socrilus]

Even if its not brain damage--

What about the theories that the hypothalamus is not getting the right input from other regions and thus messing up hormones or other things and that this reverses with time and healthy living or treatment?

Technically, all psychological disorders have biological things going on as well.

All I have to say is this:

http://jeffreydachmd.com/clomid-for-men-with-low-testosterone/

Good news is that that guy made a full recovery. Low T can cause social anxiety but you would have to go to a physician for testing.

 

[Scrofula]

Of course drugs change your brain forever.
So do meeting new people and having new experiences. Brains are pretty Buddhist or old Greek or something about rivers setting foot twice.

And it's not too unusual with drugs to do some reflection the next day. Or every day. That tends to cause some anxiety, or withdrawal anxiety causes reflection, which just never seems to be relaxing somehow.
Or the usual anxiety you had before now has a focus to latch on to and feed. Especially if it has something to do with your mind and not so much your brain.

I mean, one thing to get a bit overheated at the club and lose a few million brain cells, right? Another to feel like your mind is working . . . differently. But it's just what happens when you think about thinking for too long. Worse is when that overloads completely and you get a panic attack, trying not to "feel" the gears in your brain turning.

It might help to realize this happens after all kinds of life events. People say similar things ("I feel distant from my husband now" "I just don't understand the Kardashians anymore") after nasty car accidents. If they heard they had a concussion, then the head trauma (actual damage) can become a focus. Or a single bad encounter with weed despite thousands of good ones before it. (I think heavy MDMA use for two months counts as a life experience, with that psychedelic angle it has on things). It's a perspective shift, not brain damage. Just another post to compare before/after, before the next one, when your plane crashes.

And if we said your 5-HT-4q receptors were permanently omnipolarized by 7mV in a subsection of medial right ventricular subglomule, you'd just be stuck with it anyway.

 

[Scrofula]

Low T can cause social anxiety but you would have to go to a physician for testing.

You do not have low Testosterone. I suppose all women everywhere are socially anxious. And children.

Nothing they sell OTC will work to increase it, which would cause strokes and hair everywhere, and be quickly shut from lawsuits over miscarriages.

You will FEEL less socially anxious when you start punching people, though.

 

[socrilus]

You do not have low Testosterone. I suppose all women everywhere are socially anxious. And children.

Nothing they sell OTC will work to increase it, which would cause strokes and hair everywhere, and be quickly shut from lawsuits over miscarriages.

You will FEEL less socially anxious when you start punching people, though.

Not sure why you targeted me when i just pointed out an article for non brain damage theories through a case study.

I swear like cotcha has said on this board there is a middle ground. The LTC is not all in somebodys head nor is it damage.

And that argument about women and T levels and social anxiety makes no sense. Women have different brains entirely and a different physiology obviously. And for the record women do exhibit higher rates of anxiety or depression issues in general with one of the theories (among others like more susceptible to sexual trauma, etc) being hormonal differences....