What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[G_Chem]

@BlueBull- The benefit is people don't have to wade through almost 50pages just to get to the most relevant and important information... Most people get intimidated and say fuck it. The second thread spurred a lot of new discussion when things were getting stale due to the reasons I just stated. I can understand you guys want to "prune" but there were obvious benefits to having that second thread.

@Glubra- I understand the tartrate salt should be heavier thus requiring more but there's been rumors for years in the chemistry forum communities that say that at least MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl. There may be a reason beyond heavier weight that chemists use this salt.

Citrate is even heavier but there's been quite a few bioassays of MDMA citrate online and it sounds to be quite different from the HCl in a way that most common users wouldn't like. It lasts longer but doesn't hit as hard either, sounds like there may be more MDMA to MDA metabolism going on with the citrate..

Tartrate may be closer to HCl in effect while allowing chemists to make more money off the heavier salt.

Did the guy who took the last stuff have any comments on the experience or not really?

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

@Glubra- I understand the tartrate salt should be heavier thus requiring more but there's been rumors for years in the chemistry forum communities that say that at least MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl. There may be a reason beyond heavier weight that chemists use this salt.

Yes, there could be pharamacodynamic differences because a larger molecules would penetrate into the bloodstream more slowly from the gastrointestinal tract. There could be pharmacokinetic differences too, if the MDMA salt doesn't basify upon absorption into the bloodstream or BBB traversal. Does it ?

Citrate is even heavier but there's been quite a few bioassays of MDMA citrate online and it sounds to be quite different from the HCl in a way that most common users wouldn't like. It lasts longer but doesn't hit as hard either,

The "hitting" is related to the rate of serum concentration increase, so a slower absorbing salt would not "hit hard" and would last longer. The same is true about route of administration, e.g. oral being slower than IV...

Tartrate may be closer to HCl in effect while allowing chemists to make more money off the heavier salt.

Could be.

Did the guy who took the last stuff have any comments on the experience or not really?

Just classical positive feedback all around, which does not provide much info for our purposes. 20min onset with 4h duration and Mydriasis+Trismus.

 

[BlueBull]

@BlueBull- The benefit is people don't have to wade through almost 50pages just to get to the most relevant and important information... Most people get intimidated and say fuck it. The second thread spurred a lot of new discussion when things were getting stale due to the reasons I just stated. I can understand you guys want to "prune" but there were obvious benefits to having that second thread.

I do not agree this second thread generated any extra traffic. Conversation was flowing quite nicely in the original thread right up until the second tread was created. Also whether the user has to read through 50 pages of information in one thread or 50 pages of information in two separate threads, the consequence remains the same, someone that wants to know everything that has been posted needs to read through 50 pages of info in any case. Whether that happens by clicking on page tabs or clicking on links to the following iteration of the thread doesn't matter at all. An added benefit of having one thread is also that you can use the search function to search through all information at once, in stead of having to search multiple threads

Apart from all that, the reason we created thread iterations in the past was not for clarity or to encourage discussion. It was because of technical limitations having to do with the vBulletin software, those limitations are now not there anymore so site wide rule of thumb is to not create thread iterations anymore. This has nothing at all to do with the prune

In any case, I can understand your position but we will have to agree to disagree. I will not reply to this matter any further to let conversation run its course, this is an interesting thread. If you really want to discuss this further, PM me or another mod please

 

[G_Chem]

@Bluebull- Na I'm good agreeing to disagree..

@Glubra- I don't think it does basify but I could be wrong. I do think a fair amount is probably converted to the HCl but I'd bet more than enough stays it's original salt form. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not saying I know 100%.

Ill look around to see if there are any reports on MDMA tartrate but all I have to go on at the moment is a study of impurities and such on ecstasy back in the early 2000's. They found quite a large percentage of their samples (from my poor memory maybe around 30%?) to be the tartrate salt. These pills were produced and confiscated in Asia. To be fair though the large percentage is due to the fact they busted a huge shipment of the same pills, this mdma tartrate was coming from one large scale manufacturer at the time.

I remember reading after the fact of people reminiscing on those pills as being good. That's about it though..

I want something more than good lol. I guess in regards to the last experience you talk about, 160mg is a lot if it was pure HCl. I'd be fucking floored on that.. So probably is weaker by weight as you said.

I'll look around when I got a minute, I'm intrigued that the tartrate salt was found from both Canada and the Netherlands.

-GC

 

[Hilopsilo]

Was there any differences in Mydriasis between them ?

Please save 10mg of each kind for future testing and label them appropriately.

Yep, I've got the samples, just been very busy since I got back from our excursion, going to contact the testing people soon.

As far as I could tell/remember, pupils were huge both nights. And like I said, the stuff we had the first night wasn't bad, adulterated or fake by any means, simply that its effects were absolutely DWARFED by the MDMA we had the next night, no contest. I still remember the ~dozen of us laughing in absolute disbelief.

Part of me feels this doesn't really have a lot to do with new versus old, both "kinds" are readily available where I'm from, its just a matter of being unable to reliably tell which is which aside from physical appearance. Thats the only advice my friend who gave it to me had, go for the large scentless clear crystals that react strongly for MDMA, not worth risking getting bummed out by anything else.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I guess in regards to the last experience you talk about, 160mg is a lot if it was pure HCl. I'd be fucking floored on that.. So probably is weaker by weight as you said.

Under the assumption that only MDMA base is psychoactive, the math says to increase the mass dose of the Tartrate salt by +49% relative to the Hydrochloride salt.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Update!

Been a busy month and just got home and around to unpacking my festival gear thats been sitting in the living room.

Good news is I've got a few samples of the not-so-great MDMA that tested as 96%. Upon inspection, its the ground up amber-brown crystals. I emptied the capsules into a baggy and had a sniff, and sure it enough it absolutely reeks of safrole. Bad news is, I cannot find the small sample of magic MDMA that I had set aside, going to ask my friend if he can provide a sample of it since he seems to keep a specimen of every batch he comes across. Working on contacting our regional testing service.

Now I swear that I've had the stinky safrole stuff and its been very good. But, now that I think about it and discuss with my girlfriend (who I always roll with and take the same dose of the same batch), the only other time we had a similar experience from MDMA, where it was that magical, was last summer when we got from a friend of a friend and it was white powder in capsules. We have definitely had amazing experiences with the amber smelly stuff (i think the "96%" stuff we just had was extra not-so-great), but the two experiences with the white pristine crystal stuff certainly do stand out amongst the rest. It's quite possible/likely there is a spectrum.

Something I'd like to emphasize is, and I'm not sure how to explain it and its difficult since I ALWAYS candyflip, but the white crystals potentiated the LSD visuals in a way that the amber-safrole stuff did not. Not only in intensity, and it also just added a VERY specific "look" to everything, theres an image burned into my brain of how the speakers looked from where we were in the crowd (and I know its not just MDA since we tested for that and I've had MDA enough times to easily tell the difference). Everything is suddenly bursting with life and color, my friend described it as "that molly where you look in the mirror at the end of the night and think, god damn I'm a beautiful human being, rather than, oh got I look so fucked up". And I totally agree, I didn't feel extremely intoxicated/"fucked up", just elevated to a new plane of existence (hence me almost thinking I died and went to heaven LOL).

Also, could someone explain to me as concisely as possible what the current consensus on isomers being the culprit here? I'm reading through those early 30's pages that talk about it but am having some trouble understanding what's being said/decided. Sorry I can't be of more help, this shit is just one of those things where I experienced it first hand and feel undying need to understand why.

 

[indigoaura]

These pills were produced and confiscated in Asia. To be fair though the large percentage is due to the fact they busted a huge shipment of the same pills, this mdma tartrate was coming from one large scale manufacturer at the time.

I remember reading after the fact of people reminiscing on those pills as being good. That's about it though..

This reminds me of the rumors that went around back in the early 2000s that the good stuff in our area was coming from the Asian mafia. I heard that from several people who provided top notch supply at that time.

Hilopsilo, you are in a unique position to shed light on this mystery if you can get your hands on that magical sample. If a lab can identify the difference between those two samples, we may be significantly closer to understanding what is going on. Also, if your lab will accept samples from overseas, I could also send in my "sleepy" sample and we could see if it has similar qualities to your unimpressive sample.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Might be old news, but maybe useful: http://countyourculture.com/2011/05/23/mirrored-magic-mdma/

Interestingly, they were not – with racemic MDMA quite literally reporting effects more than the sum of its parts. This was borne out by user reports as well. The S(+)-MDMA may have been more potent by weight at first glance, but alone it was more stimulating and lacked the indescribable “magic” of the full racemic MDMA experience.

In general, R(-)-MDMA appears to produce psychedelic effects and has a longer duration relative to the more stimulating effects of S(+)-MDMA. MDMA is an incredibly unique compound, where each stereoisomer has a distinct and centrally active mode of action. Unlike other compounds where one stereoisomer is more potent or responsible for the majority of effects, each stereoisomer of MDMA contributes to produce a full and complex experience.

So, I'm gonna out on a limb here and say the crappy stuff is heavily S-MDMA, for whatever reason, is now flooding the market (which may be the real mystery here). The potentiation of my visuals, longer lasting effects, and less ampy-stimmy effects from the magic MDMA seems to line up with the description R-MDMA.

Sorry if thats old news and y'all have moved on to figuring out why S-MDMA is everywhere rather than what the problem with it is.

The same problem still exists regardless, how can the consumer reliably tell the difference before they eat the damn stuff.

EDIT: So reading back it seems you all don't think the isomer distribution would have enough of an effect. Although I do like this explanation as its semi-documented and scientific.

^^Thing is it doesn't HAVE to be the isomers. It could be, but it could also be impurities, polymorphs, we just don't really know.. People thought an R-heavy batch would be the culprit for years, Glubra showed that at least at (62% R, 37% S) the effects seemed perfectly satisfactory. Maybe if it reached 90/10 R/S then it'd start to get problematic but I'm still unsure if it's causing what we're seeing.

-GC

See just from reading, I was thinking the opposite, as the article described S-MDMA as "more stimulating and lacked the indescribable magic of the full racemic MDMA experience", which pretty much lines up with my experience exactly. It described S-MDMA as more stimulating, but I think people confuse stimmy/ampy with energy. Stimulants like amphetamine or cocaine do not give me energy to dance, they make me stare at a wall wide eyed talking a mile a minute. Again, just from reading, but it sounds like the magic comes from the R. I had 1000x the energy with the magic MDMA, but it was stimulated feeling, it was almost a psychedelic energy, I was so happy and the music sounded so good flailing like a maniac was the only option.

The come-up of the not-so-great MDMA was certainly more intense than the magic mdma, it was almost more intense than the roll that followed. I could see shulgin noting his patients extreme come-up from the S-MDMA and interpreting that as increased potency. But thats back in just guessing territory. The magic mdma certainly still had a big come-up, but it wasn't that extreme fight or flight shit.

 

[Glubrahnum]

So, I'm gonna out on a limb here and say the crappy stuff is heavily S-MDMA, for whatever reason, is now flooding the market (which may be the real mystery here).

The enantiomer theory has been discussed in this thread many times.
The general takeaway from these discussions is that it is very wasteful economically to make non-racemic product.
Also, chemically it is not easy to make a non-racemic MDMA base, but it is easy to make a non-racemic salt from the racemic base by using a chiral acid during the salting process ( such as the L-Tartaric acid ). Such process is very wasteful, though, because the chiral acid will preferably form a salt with only one enantiomer of the base ...while the other one goes down the drain.

The same problem still exists regardless, how can the consumer reliably tell the difference before they eat the damn stuff.

If you want to test the chirality of the substance at home, you can do it by passing a polarized light through the substance to be tested and observing it through another polarizer (e.g. polarized sunglasses).
Watch these videos to see how this is done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhU-nNiAgtI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3qNc8lUdMU

For testing the intrinsic chirality of S-MDMA use a long glass tube (with glass end caps!) filled with saturated MDMA water solution without the magnet or electromagnet. The light will be rotated by the chiral substance even without the magnetic field present.

P.S.
Compare the behavior of saturated water solution of Fructose with the behavior of pure deionized water to get the feel of the effect. Use ONLY deionized water for making these solutions and cleaning the glass tube !!!
For best effects use 2 thin identical glass tubes parallel to each other - one filled with deionized water and the other filled with a saturated solution of the substance to be tested.

 

[Hilopsilo]

The enantiomer theory has been discussed in this thread many times.
The general takeaway from these discussions is that it is very wasteful economically to make non-racemic product.
Also, chemically it is not easy to make a non-racemic MDMA base, but it is easy to make a non-racemic salt from the racemic base by using a chiral acid during the salting process ( such as the L-Tartaric acid ). Such process is very wasteful, though, because the chiral acid will preferably form a salt with only one enantiomer of the base ...while the other one goes down the drain.



If you want to test the chirality of the substance at home, you can do it by passing a polarized light through the substance to be tested and observing it through another polarizer (e.g. polarized sunglasses).
Watch these videos to see how this is done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhU-nNiAgtI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3qNc8lUdMU

For testing the intrinsic chirality of S-MDMA use a long glass tube (with glass end caps!) filled with saturated MDMA water solution without the magnet or electromagnet. The light will be rotated by the chiral substance even without the magnetic field present.

P.S.
Compare the behavior of saturated water solution of Fructose with the behavior of pure deionized water to get the feel of the effect. Use ONLY deionized water for making these solutions and cleaning the glass tube !!!
For best effects use 2 thin identical glass tubes parallel to each other - one filled with deionized water and the other filled with a saturated solution of the substance to be tested.

Thanks for the information, could you tell what the leading theory in this thread is? Obviously there is no conclusion, but it's hard for me to tell what the current leads are amongst so many suggestions being thrown out. Is it that 2,3MDMA is being produced?

 

[psy997]

Thanks for the information, could you tell what the leading theory in this thread is? Obviously there is no conclusion, but it's hard for me to tell what the current leads are amongst so many suggestions being thrown out. Is it that 2,3MDMA is being produced?

Read from around pages 20-25. There's multiple posts listing the various leading theories.

 

[indigoaura]

I feel like a broken record here...but we need concrete data to determine what is going on. We need samples, user reports, and advanced lab testing. If we could just find a lab that would accept our samples and test for all of these variables (isomer ratios, salts, impurities etc.) then we could start to compile data.

I don't know how I feel about the isomers at this point. The "non-magic" sample that I have does not feel stimulating. It is definitely a sit still, feel cold, don't talk, don't dance kind of vibe. Music sounds normal. Sounds are actually kind of annoying.

Here is a story about this sample. I was at a concert. It was my favorite band. I was at the front of the crowd and had taken 200 mg of this stuff. This should all combine to create a great experience. Favorite band, front row, MDMA etc. But, all I could focus on were the annoying sounds and behaviors of those in the audience around me. I was completely agitated. I felt like fighting people. I could not get into the music at all, and did not enjoy the experience. Now that I think about it, I can recall two experiences like this.

For me, it doesn't feel stimulating at all.

 

[psy997]

It's not an isomer issue IMO. Maybe to a small degree, but my money's on contaminants and similar.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Thanks for the information, could you tell what the leading theory in this thread is? Obviously there is no conclusion, but it's hard for me to tell what the current leads are amongst so many suggestions being thrown out. Is it that 2,3MDMA is being produced?

I have never detected 2,3-MDMA but I have detected a precursor 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate.

Some years ago the precursors and manufacturing methods have evolved. G_Chem has a good grip on the history of manufacturing changes and precursors.

Like indigoaura wrote, we need concrete data to determine what is going on. We need samples, user reports, and advanced lab testing. The lab has to be capable of testing for enantiomer & isomer ratios, salts, impurities and crystalline polymorphs. Only then we could begin to have more than theories.

I don't have access to many samples and good user reports but I can do Raman spectrosopy (usually without the ability to resolve enantiomers).
I wish the user reports on this forum always contained detailed info about pupil dilation (mydriasis).

I have noticed that the "mongy" Molly does not produce much mydriasis.

The knee-jerk response of serous chemists to the claim of existence of bad Molly is user's tolerance.
This attitude hampers serious research, however I have disproved that on Page 21 with an experiment on several virgin users who have never used MDMA nor antidepressants nor cocaine nor any other stimulants.

 

[Hilopsilo]

I feel like a broken record here...but we need concrete data to determine what is going on. We need samples, user reports, and advanced lab testing. If we could just find a lab that would accept our samples and test for all of these variables (isomer ratios, salts, impurities etc.) then we could start to compile data.

I don't know how I feel about the isomers at this point. The "non-magic" sample that I have does not feel stimulating. It is definitely a sit still, feel cold, don't talk, don't dance kind of vibe. Music sounds normal. Sounds are actually kind of annoying.

Here is a story about this sample. I was at a concert. It was my favorite band. I was at the front of the crowd and had taken 200 mg of this stuff. This should all combine to create a great experience. Favorite band, front row, MDMA etc. But, all I could focus on were the annoying sounds and behaviors of those in the audience around me. I was completely agitated. I felt like fighting people. I could not get into the music at all, and did not enjoy the experience. Now that I think about it, I can recall two experiences like this.

For me, it doesn't feel stimulating at all.

I imagine everyone has already brainstormed every possible organization that could help? I emailed maps and ecstasy, giving them some brief background and asking if they'd be interested in my two samples. Still working on finding out how to contact the more local testing organization.

An update: Talked to C today, and he told me that the bag labeled "OG MDMA" he had acquired maybe 3 or 4 months prior, so it has to still be around. He labeled it OG just to tell it apart from other stuff.

I did some window shopping, and to my surprise I saw hardly any MDMA that has the same appearance as the magic MDMA. Most of it (probably 95 % ) was tan/champagne/purple/grey/brown or even black that is a dusty looking crystal/rock mound, what I imagine is what is described as recrystallized to look bigger. However, I did come across some that was that clear/white solid crystals, and interestingly enough the descriptions touched on this. One mentioned that it was not the "Dutch Dirt" everyone else has, the other referred to other stuff as "crappy Checkpoint MDMA", whatever the fuck that means. Overall, I saw a lot of "calling out" of dutch stuff as being crappy, attempts to distance themselves from that.

The magic stuff, before we crushed it all down to a fine white powder, were these brilliant clear solid crystals.

 

[Specified]

Well I haven't touched MDMA in over two years and have got some stuff from Amsterdam coming in so we shall see how it is.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Ecstasydata emailed me back, sort of the response I was expecting;

"[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Thanks for your email. Very interesting topic(s).[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]To answer main question: probably not. If you have access to a GC/MS, [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]then you can confirm that what you have is MDMA. Our lab can certainly [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]attempt to confirm your analysis and look for other GC bumps.[/FONT]


[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]As you probably already know, there is ample documentation that the [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]stereoisomers of the entire class (from ephedrine, to amphetamine, to [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]the rest of the molecules of this general size and shape) have clearly [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]differentiable effects in human and animal models. Including Alexander [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Shulgin's workups from decades ago.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]But few, if any, commercial producers of MDMA ever bother making [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]anything but racemic product because there's no reason to do so. There [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]are boutique and individual chemists who do produce stereo-pure R or S [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]MDMA because it's interesting, but virtually no labs bother to do the [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]stereo isolation necessary. What's the point? It would be costly and [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]would likely yield results of no additional value.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]It is more likely, of course, that some other factors are to blame for [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]your experiences, set, setting, some other minor drug added, etc. There [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]are a thousand explanations that all fit the data you describe that do [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]not require the MDMA be any different. Small differences in dose [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal](accompanied by differences in set & setting )is the easiest explanation [/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I am extremely aware how deeply unsatisfying any answer like that is.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I spent several years working on trying to get an LSD analysis project [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]started to try to account for the differences in people's experiences [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]from different 'batches' of LSD. It was a remarkable failure, mostly [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]because it was/is approximately impossible to get approval for the [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]expertise level and quantity of analysis necessary to yield clear [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]results and those who have the expertise are either unwilling to do so [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]without proper approval or already work in the deep underground and want [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]nothing to do with published papers demonstrating their expertise :][/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]But, who knows.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]So, we can take a look ($100 per sample), but you're probably looking [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]for an academic research project on a different planet or timeline. How [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]are you at jumping history timelines and wormholing info between them?[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]:][/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]earth"[/FONT]

 

[psy997]

At least they have a sense of humor, they I would hope they'd have more hope if they read this thread. Did you share this thread with them?

 

[Goodwalt]

Very disappointing response, but to be honest I wasn't expecting much from them. Maybe we have better luck with the people analyzing samples at Zurich.