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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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Lol.. Yea for some reason it won't turn into a link for me :/ Although to be fair I'm not super savvy with this kinda thing.

And actually Hilo that's one hypothesis we haven't really discussed. It theoretically could be possible though that different safrole sources produce varied product.

When people think safrole they instantly think sassafras.. Well there are other sources of safrole all around the world, various trees and plants which contain it. For instance, Sassafras albidum oil contains around 80% safrole, whereas "Brazilian Sassafras" Ocotea pretiosa is known to be high 90's% safrole. Then there's also "Chinese" or Asian sassafras as well. From my memory the other oils that make up the rest of them do vary from one plant source to the next.

It does make me curious because it's obvious based on the residual odor that some precursor oils are making it through. If the chemist doesn't distill their safrole before using then theoretically there would be variations between them all.

A good example of this is that certain safrole sources also have anethole which is the precursor for PMA/PMMA. I remember one really well known NL presser (QDance maybe?) that put out really good pills but they showed a few mg of PMMA as well. Needless to say despite the nearly non existent amount contained people's reactions were one of fear. Those same pills came out not long after with zero PMMA so they quickly remedied the situation..

Who knows though a little PMMA (I hear it's actually not as bad compared to PMA) or some other substance cpuld be altering effects here..

Interesting to think about especially since the "not so great" product still had a sassy smell. I wonder if it's more than just a safrole Vs not-safrole debate..

-GC
 
Another thing that crossed my mind, that may have been already discussed/easily detectable, was that the route of synthesis produces a product that doesn't digest properly, similar to how certain forms of vitamins pass straight through you. With the not-so-great MDMA I got a nasty stomach cramp, I already sort of had a stomach cramp from the LSD (which I get everytime I take LSD for the first time in a little while), but it made it way worse briefly and never fully went away. It was so bad at one point I almost panicked thinking "oh fuck, this is it, I took some fucked up chemical and I'm gonna die in the hospital having my stomach pumped".

When I told medical I hadn't taken it in exactly a year, something they told me to keep in mind and something they observe, is that your body/brain can react strangely to MDMA if you haven't taken it in a long time. Something to consider when looking at trials involving actual people.
 
Hey Hilopsilo, glad to see you! I hate it that you had a lame experience like that, but I am glad you understand what we have all been chatting about. It is one of those things that just seems impossible until you have experienced it. Your story really demonstrates it well because you had immediate access to upper tier testing on both samples, and you had a group who all experienced the same results. So, it wasn't just you, and it wasn't tolerance either (two of the common counter arguments).

I would LOVE to see the full lab report on both samples. There may be something going on with the "common" precursors that are showing up that is impacting the samples (or the user) more than anyone thinks.

We have not talked about digestion much, but it could be relevant. There is so much evidence being released every day about the significance of the microbiome, the presence of neurotransmitters in the gut etc. If some samples are not making it to the right place in the digestive system to be properly absorbed, that could explain some of the problems people are experiencing.
 
I'm quite new to MDMA. And got fascinated by this thread -- reading the reports from the "old" MDMA and how that should feel in theory. Where I live (middle Europe), there is a lot of the brown/champagne MDMA from the Netherlands. It's nice, but not on the level I read people writing about. Found this quotes from a chemist in this article.

In Hardison?s experience, clandestine MDMA manufacture always begins with high-vacuum/low-temperature-distilled safrole oil, preferably from China. ?You can get it from India ? lots of places, probably,? Hardison says. ?But Chinese manufacturers, at least some of them, will ship it out mislabeled,? since safrole is on the international watch list for drug-precursor chemicals. ?Just tell them you have somecustom problems, and they?ll label it as something else so you don?t hit the watch list.?
Purely distilled safrole oil makes the best MDMA. According to Hardison, the best underground chemists distill their safrole again after they get it from the supplier, ?just to make sure you know what you?re working with.? He learned the technique from the legendary psychedelic chemist Alexander Shulgin, who mentioned it in his book PiHKAL. When I ask him why raw safrole is found in some blends of underground molly, Hardison is quick with the answer: ?They ran out of tinfoil in the aluminum amalgam stage; the reaction didn?t complete. Sometimes people will say that the molly is ?sassy?, like it has that sassafras smell, like that?s a good thing.?
As it turns out, it?s not a good thing.
Hardison is describing the waxy, brownish molly powder I had seen in the gelcaps on Mike?s desk. ?People don?t use the right thickness of aluminum foil in the amalgam stage, or they run out,? he says. ?That?s why you?ll see that brown molly out there. If you fully complete the reaction, there is no safrole left, so the molly will be odorless.?
 
G_Chem, thanks for making this version II thread. Do you think that Glubra's raman testing of samples with the 2,3-MDP2P glycidate result should go in the initial post?

Also, seems like we are now seeing that smell is not a trustworthy indicator of quality. At the end of the last thread, it was seeming like the slightly colored crystals with the safrole smell were better than the totally white crystals with no smell. Now, however, we are seeing examples of the opposite.

And Hilopsilo, when I have had the sub-par product, I have stomach issues as well. Usually, I don't have problems until the comedown though, and it lasts for almost a week. Definitely does something to my digestion that the better product does not do.
 
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^^^Thanks man! I completely agree those should be in too I just have been super busy and I have to skim the pages to find em, hopefully next weekend I can edit in more.

As for your second point I've thought about that as well. A few things... First Hilo has had many amazing experiences on safrole smelly MDMA too, it sounds like this batch at the festival had a safrole smell to it but still appeared different from the stuff he had in the past. I'm guessing that while this particular batch was made from safrole it still likely had an impurity which effected the experience negatively.

Honestly from your comments Indigo as well as what I've gathered from Hilos post, I wonder if there was MDp2pol was in that batch..

The other thing I wanted to say, is that I think it's possible to actually get tolerant to particular batches. When I grab MDMA I usually grab a few grams so I can become familiar with it. I notice if I use from one batch too often I become tolerant and find it better to switch it up once in awhile for that reason. I've read about this elsewhere too, with people getting tolerant to certain Ecstasy batches.

-GC
 
Recently one of my acquaintances gave me a new sample of the Dutch tan "MDMA" powder to test.
I analyzed it with Raman spectroscopy and XRF and the result was a very pure 3,4-MDMA Tartrate. Also later, I tested the enantiomer ratio on the better machine and determined it to be 42/58 (R/S), which does not surprise me because Tartaric acid is often sold in non-racemic form.

He has consumed 160mg and reported very positive classic experience with full Mydriasis and without any bothersome comedown.
 
I have some Molls I'm going to freebase and recrystallize out of solvent to see if it helps. Just some cleanup work. My crystals are tan, but I hope to get them sugar white when I'm done. I think the impurities definitely interfere with this drug. The best rolls I've had are always on white to off-white powder. If there's a noticeable difference, I'll post about it.

-Lab Rat
 
What is the Consensus then? I don't think MDMA any different its just not sacred like it was when I was growing up its cheap and abused now.
 
freesolo123 said:
What is the Consensus then? I don't think MDMA any different its just not sacred like it was when I was growing up its cheap and abused now.
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There is no consensus yet due to insufficient correlation between analytic results ans subjective experiences.
My recent test does not contribute much to solving this mystery because it did not uncover any problems with that particular sample. My other tests did - however nothing consistent.

Please read carefully the first post of this thread before you allege "abuse" ...or tolerance buildup as an implicit conclusion of this.
 
G_Chem said:
^^^Thanks man! I completely agree those should be in too I just have been super busy and I have to skim the pages to find em, hopefully next weekend I can edit in more.

As for your second point I've thought about that as well. A few things... First Hilo has had many amazing experiences on safrole smelly MDMA too, it sounds like this batch at the festival had a safrole smell to it but still appeared different from the stuff he had in the past. I'm guessing that while this particular batch was made from safrole it still likely had an impurity which effected the experience negatively.

Honestly from your comments Indigo as well as what I've gathered from Hilos post, I wonder if there was MDp2pol was in that batch..

The other thing I wanted to say, is that I think it's possible to actually get tolerant to particular batches. When I grab MDMA I usually grab a few grams so I can become familiar with it. I notice if I use from one batch too often I become tolerant and find it better to switch it up once in awhile for that reason. I've read about this elsewhere too, with people getting tolerant to certain Ecstasy batches.

-GC
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So to clarify, I barely got a whiff of the full bag of the not-so-great stuff. It smelled of safrole certainly, as did it test as ~96% pure MDMA, but it wasn't that overwhelming smell of safrole from the amber crystals that literally gives me butterflies (there was a time not too long ago where that kind was plentiful, and it was fantastic stuff). Even fake MDMA I've come across has had strange, fragrant, herbal smells. It's tricky to go by, but sometimes when you know you know.

freesolo123 said:
What is the Consensus then? I don't think MDMA any different its just not sacred like it was when I was growing up its cheap and abused now.
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Well the confounding part of all of this is that MDMA that tests as perfectly good MDMA is very much not providing the desired/expected effects, even testing with state of the art technology and methods. I didn't believe any of the crap people were talking about in this thread until i experienced what I posted about at the beginning of this thread.

For me its undeniable that there is something going on since on day 1 the 100mg of ~96% MDMA did not provide the desired effects, yet on day 2, AFTER I had already rolled in day 1 mind you, 100mg of a different kind of MDMA that also tested in the high 90th percentile blew my shit out of the water. For some it may be a loss of magic due to abuse or whatever, but I've only ever taken 100mg for the last ~9 years since I started rolling and never had any loss of "magic". Mind you I weighed all of these myself, 100mg on the dot.

An update though, since the event I've spoken with my group that took the same MDMA each day as I did, and we all seem to be on the same page about it; crazy, inexplicable difference in effects. Pretty confused, but also thankful we have access to the good stuff.
 
Hilopsilo said:
For me its undeniable that there is something going on since on day 1 the 100mg of ~96% MDMA did not provide the desired effects, yet on day 2, AFTER I had already rolled in day 1 mind you, 100mg of a different kind of MDMA that also tested in the high 90th percentile blew my shit out of the water. For some it may be a loss of magic due to abuse or whatever, but I've only ever taken 100mg for the last ~9 years since I started rolling and never had any loss of "magic". Mind you I weighed all of these myself, 100mg on the dot.
An update though, since the event I've spoken with my group that took the same MDMA each day as I did, and we all seem to be on the same page about it; crazy, inexplicable difference in effects. Pretty confused, but also thankful we have access to the good stuff.
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Was there any differences in Mydriasis between them ?

Please save 10mg of each kind for future testing and label them appropriately.
 
Very long thread.

Again I am no chemist to bear with me.

The Q-dance and Iron crosses being the best of the "new" pills 2011 approx. Apparently the price of MDMA dropped soon after than and has dropped a lot since then. This price drop has been reflected on the pill prices too in NL.

Apparently somewhere along the line there was a new method for them to produce MDMA and it allowed twice the amount to be made. Customs did not know of said method.
Apparently** being the main word. I believe this to be true as the price more than halved in those few years.

Also there is a book called "pills of god" and ebook. I am not sure how much of it you would believe but to spoil it for some there was a chinese plant that had shit loads (enough to supply the world with MDMA) of MDP2P which was on a watched chemical list. This dutch guy had a way to chance the chemical structure of the MDP2P to export it and then a way to change it back to MDP2P afterwards.

Could this be part of what has messed it up?
 
@Hilo- Yea I remember all my friends getting sass one time that looked really impure but smelled somewhat of sassafras. It tested legit too. They all took it and said it worked but didn't seem like typical MDA effects. When I eventually got around to trying it I tasted the tiniest bit and immediately spit it out. The taste was nothing like the bitterness of MDXX. People must be diligent cuz the fakes can be well done at times. This was like 5yrs ago though and pretty sure someone was whipping up fake sass with 5-Meo-mipt or some shit like that around then.

@Glubra- So glad to see you again man!! Thanks for another analysis. Super interesting that tartrate seems to be the more common salt these days. This doesn't majorly surprise me as this salt has been fairly common as far back as the early 2000's.. I've done reading that says MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl but why that is has been speculated on.

This good mdma coming from the Dutch also doesn't surprise me as we've seen an increase in positive reports coming from Europe again. I get the impression chemists are changing the way they do things, possibly based on our conversations.

Hope to hear more analysis in the future as with each one we understand the problem a little more.

-GC
 
Since this only creates confusion with people replying in both threads and it provides no benefit I have merged these threads again. Please do not create thread versions on your own. If this is needed, one of the mods will create a second thread and archive the first one. However this is very rare as we have stopped merging threads that run longer than 25 pages, the reason we did this in the past was technical but it is not needed anymore
 
G_Chem said:
@Glubra- So glad to see you again man!! Thanks for another analysis.
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I was not gone - it's vacation season.

G_Chem said:
Super interesting that tartrate seems to be the more common salt these days. This doesn't majorly surprise me as this salt has been fairly common as far back as the early 2000's.. I've done reading that says MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl but why that is has been speculated on.
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MDMA Tartrate is more massive than MDMA Hydrochloride, so more money per gram can be charged for it.
If they had gone for the Citrate, then it would weigh even more...
 
JG0007 said:
Very long thread.

Again I am no chemist to bear with me.

The Q-dance and Iron crosses being the best of the "new" pills 2011 approx. Apparently the price of MDMA dropped soon after than and has dropped a lot since then. This price drop has been reflected on the pill prices too in NL.

Apparently somewhere along the line there was a new method for them to produce MDMA and it allowed twice the amount to be made. Customs did not know of said method.
Apparently** being the main word. I believe this to be true as the price more than halved in those few years.

Also there is a book called "pills of god" and ebook. I am not sure how much of it you would believe but to spoil it for some there was a chinese plant that had shit loads (enough to supply the world with MDMA) of MDP2P which was on a watched chemical list. This dutch guy had a way to chance the chemical structure of the MDP2P to export it and then a way to change it back to MDP2P afterwards.

Could this be part of what has messed it up?
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Totally Agree the Qdance is the last close to real mdma easly obtainedi have tried ever since , The other purist Mdma i tried in 2001 was bec of a danish friend with some really strong connections he is a millionaire after lol i remember it was 80 % Pure ! after testing im a guy who took 2 grams of good ( 50 %) mdma ( thats good to me ) in a jumpy day thanks to my severe adhd lol my body is some how really effecient at metabolizing all uppers along side ketamine and here and there coke , but let me tell you 500mg of that 80 % MDMA alone took me to a breakthrough and didnt even think about taking a cup of coffe a week after the roll lol ( proves real psycedelic benefit ) no self induced harm or needing more / craveeffect . which concludes that the sttuuf sold today is pure Garbage compared to the psycedelic effects i got from the reall stuff not even worth buying nowadays in my honest opinion unless you have mighty connection s
 
I don't know if this is significant or if anyone else experiences this, but the stuff that I call 'proper' MDMA always gives my vision a lovely golden yellow hue. Everything just glows in this colour. The sub par stuff never does that.
 
Goodwalt said:
Then why wouldn't they? Citric acid is really easy to obtain, they would have made so much more money.
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I would venture it is due to the lack of creativity or an MDMA Citrate sample did not make its way to me yet.

Also, Citrate samples might have been submitted to other labs, but these labs do not list the salt type in their results so we have no indication of it, besides the need for higher doses.
 
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