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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
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SwimmingIsTheBest
Greenlighter
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Swim is brand new to this website and was just curious about a few things. Apologies if this is in the wrong place, the little panda looking for help has no idea where these wisdoms belong.
First off, swim has done just about everything. Next, swim just relocated and in his new residence has been unable to find MDMA. He found some energy boosters, but is unsure what they are. Swim is currently awaiting Marquis, robadope and other testers to come in. Currently swim is going off of taste and effects. Swim got about 20 rolls, which are clearly not what they are advertised as.
Swim is a long time raver and can tell the difference by taste, look, and effect (generally). What swim has been getting gives him tons of energy, but very little euphoria. Very focused, very awake, no dilated pupils (could be tolerance). Swim says it almost feels like Adderall but definitely not.
Can anyone shed some light on what swim might be getting while swim waits for his testers to come?
First off, swim has done just about everything. Next, swim just relocated and in his new residence has been unable to find MDMA. He found some energy boosters, but is unsure what they are. Swim is currently awaiting Marquis, robadope and other testers to come in. Currently swim is going off of taste and effects. Swim got about 20 rolls, which are clearly not what they are advertised as.
Swim is a long time raver and can tell the difference by taste, look, and effect (generally). What swim has been getting gives him tons of energy, but very little euphoria. Very focused, very awake, no dilated pupils (could be tolerance). Swim says it almost feels like Adderall but definitely not.
Can anyone shed some light on what swim might be getting while swim waits for his testers to come?
Tranced
Bluelight Crew
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- 10,875
Good old swim.
Bluelight does not allow people to SWIM because we know its you and it sounds very silly. I mean, are you suggesting SWIM is actually a panda or is that a figure of speech? Because the former won't exactly stand up in court, although I guess it would definitely give them a decent laugh. Be free of SWIM.
Second of all we don't allow substance ID's, because it's completely impossible to know what you took. You may as well just cherry pick one of the hundreds of drugs with similar effects for all it's worth. That's all anybody else would be doing. Gives you energy and little euphoria, dilates your pupils and makes you focussed and awake? Hello pretty much every stimulant/empathogen ever.
Bluelight does not allow people to SWIM because we know its you and it sounds very silly. I mean, are you suggesting SWIM is actually a panda or is that a figure of speech? Because the former won't exactly stand up in court, although I guess it would definitely give them a decent laugh. Be free of SWIM.
Second of all we don't allow substance ID's, because it's completely impossible to know what you took. You may as well just cherry pick one of the hundreds of drugs with similar effects for all it's worth. That's all anybody else would be doing. Gives you energy and little euphoria, dilates your pupils and makes you focussed and awake? Hello pretty much every stimulant/empathogen ever.
SwimmingIsTheBest
Greenlighter
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No euphoria and no dilation. Tests came in and it just seems to be a mix of random adulterants. Primary (based on color of tests) seems to be amph with maybe a little methylone.
opiatekrzy
Bluelighter
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- Jul 21, 2004
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I'm sure the reason we remember the ecstacy pills back in the day as being highly fucking amazing , is because most of them had amphetamine, or methamphetamine in it, this combo alone is highly synergistic.
Yea god I go back and forth on this so much.. I still think it's down to impurities potentially but after further research I think I may have come up with a new theory haha.
LucidSDreamer briefly mentioned this in one of his last posts but no one seemed to hear. Polymorphism. Research in this field is truly in its infancy but polymorphism can cause a pure substance to vary in bioavailability, storage, crystal formation, and effects!
Here's a ref to a fairly recent study looking at how polymorphism has effected pharmaceuticals. It appears we don't know all that much about polymorphism regarding psychoactive drugs but it seems to most definitely effect how a drug works in our bodies.
Polymorph Impact on the Bioavailability and Stability of Poorly Soluble Drugs
Roberta Censi and Piera Di Martino *
School of Pharmacy, University of Camerino, via S. Agostino, 1, Camerino 62032, Italy
Now next if we look at research studies we see one very recently that investigated to see if there was any polymorphic change to MDMA when under high pressure like that of a ecstasy press. They found no change (seems reasonable) and also state there to only be one known polymorphic form. I'd argue that there is only one known simply due to the fact most pure MDMA used in research is synthesized in roughly the same manner from many of the same companies. I'd also argue that this research is too young to conclude definitively that there is only one.
It is very within the realm of possibility that illicitly produced MDMA can form different polymorphs. And knowing now that these polymorphs can vary in potency and effect...
That ladies and gentlemen is how you get 99.9% pure MDMA to vary from one batch to another.
Speaking of I've been "experimenting" this year with different batches of MDMA (i.e. taking notes) and I actually came across a batch that consistently produced experiences which last 6-8hrs (in all subjects including myself who tried it). I also came across a batch that hit very very hard but lasted tops 3hrs. (All reagent tested only.) Had a girl I barely knew telling me I was her soulmate after 3words with her.. It fascinates me that it can vary so much, but with all of the other variables (impurities, set n setting, etc) I suppose it's not a shocker.
-GC
LucidSDreamer briefly mentioned this in one of his last posts but no one seemed to hear. Polymorphism. Research in this field is truly in its infancy but polymorphism can cause a pure substance to vary in bioavailability, storage, crystal formation, and effects!
Here's a ref to a fairly recent study looking at how polymorphism has effected pharmaceuticals. It appears we don't know all that much about polymorphism regarding psychoactive drugs but it seems to most definitely effect how a drug works in our bodies.
Polymorph Impact on the Bioavailability and Stability of Poorly Soluble Drugs
Roberta Censi and Piera Di Martino *
School of Pharmacy, University of Camerino, via S. Agostino, 1, Camerino 62032, Italy
Now next if we look at research studies we see one very recently that investigated to see if there was any polymorphic change to MDMA when under high pressure like that of a ecstasy press. They found no change (seems reasonable) and also state there to only be one known polymorphic form. I'd argue that there is only one known simply due to the fact most pure MDMA used in research is synthesized in roughly the same manner from many of the same companies. I'd also argue that this research is too young to conclude definitively that there is only one.
It is very within the realm of possibility that illicitly produced MDMA can form different polymorphs. And knowing now that these polymorphs can vary in potency and effect...
That ladies and gentlemen is how you get 99.9% pure MDMA to vary from one batch to another.
Speaking of I've been "experimenting" this year with different batches of MDMA (i.e. taking notes) and I actually came across a batch that consistently produced experiences which last 6-8hrs (in all subjects including myself who tried it). I also came across a batch that hit very very hard but lasted tops 3hrs. (All reagent tested only.) Had a girl I barely knew telling me I was her soulmate after 3words with her.. It fascinates me that it can vary so much, but with all of the other variables (impurities, set n setting, etc) I suppose it's not a shocker.
-GC
Good MDMA is definitely out there. I had my personal stash tested last year as it's the best I've ever gotten my hands on and it was about 97% with some small amounts of analogs or metabolites like MDA. Takes a little effort but easily worth while to just get good shit
Foreigner
Bluelighter
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- Mar 18, 2009
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- 8,304
This. I raved in the 90's for a long time and the pills were very speedy. Ironically the first time I tried pure MDMA powder in capsule form was in 2003. Although I enjoyed it, I was a bit disappointed because it didn't give me that staying power that the rave MDMA of the 90's had. I'm in Canada, btw.
In 2014 I had the chance to try a small batch of pure MDMA that was of limited supply. It tested positive for containing MDMA and I trust the source. It was the best MDMA high I ever experienced. No more of it available though
Oh yea there is definitely good MDMA out there, I've only come across two batches I think over the years that were "meh" although I've just been lucky too. Where I live it's abundant I've never bought product that tested as bunk so I'm grateful.
The thing about ecstasy in the 90's though (especially the early 90's) is that there wasn't a lot of amphetamines mixed in when looking at analysis of pills back then. In fact a good majority contained MDxx only although there was definitely more MDEA and MDA in certain areas. The even more fucked up thing is that the average pill was in the 75-100mg range.. For instance the white doves that people claimed could take only half a pill and be rolling steady for 6hrs was MDMA and never that large of a dose.
So how in the hell did people roll that long on dosages sub 100mg?? (Like 50-75mg). The only answer I can see is that during the early 90's when MDMA was becoming in high demand illicit manufacturers used a reaction which at the time was the best they really had for producing large batches at a time. (Leuckart which is easily scaleable and at the time easy to obtain precursors.) The downside to this synthetic route is its sloppy in ways and produces a product that is likely to contain impurities. Looking at the few refs I could find it seems the leuckart was popular in the 90's but started to fade out in use towards the late 90's and by early 2000's other routes were being implemented. This correlates well with people's supposed belief the ecstasy changed around then which numerous threads have touched on here.
I once theorized the impurity DMMDA (which is found in mdma synthesized in this way) could be the culprit but thanks to Kayman that was ruled out for the most part. (EDIT: It has since been determined me and him were talking about two different "DMMDA's" so the theory still stands.) There are other active impurities present though and some of them have research to show they are active in ranges near that of MDMA on certain receptor sites. (The ref I'm thinking of only checked 12 known MDMA impurities and found a few fairly active ones so there's gotta be more out there.)
Not sure how the MDMA was different back then but based on dosages people took and effects felt it's obvious something might have changed.
I'm curious if anyone who used to take MDMA back in the early 90's ever came across "pure" MDMA? One thing I also find interesting is how back then people claimed they couldn't make that large of crystals (or any crystals at all, mostly powder up until the past 10yrs or so) yet we see monster shards these days... Questions, questions..
-GC
The thing about ecstasy in the 90's though (especially the early 90's) is that there wasn't a lot of amphetamines mixed in when looking at analysis of pills back then. In fact a good majority contained MDxx only although there was definitely more MDEA and MDA in certain areas. The even more fucked up thing is that the average pill was in the 75-100mg range.. For instance the white doves that people claimed could take only half a pill and be rolling steady for 6hrs was MDMA and never that large of a dose.
So how in the hell did people roll that long on dosages sub 100mg?? (Like 50-75mg). The only answer I can see is that during the early 90's when MDMA was becoming in high demand illicit manufacturers used a reaction which at the time was the best they really had for producing large batches at a time. (Leuckart which is easily scaleable and at the time easy to obtain precursors.) The downside to this synthetic route is its sloppy in ways and produces a product that is likely to contain impurities. Looking at the few refs I could find it seems the leuckart was popular in the 90's but started to fade out in use towards the late 90's and by early 2000's other routes were being implemented. This correlates well with people's supposed belief the ecstasy changed around then which numerous threads have touched on here.
I once theorized the impurity DMMDA (which is found in mdma synthesized in this way) could be the culprit but thanks to Kayman that was ruled out for the most part. (EDIT: It has since been determined me and him were talking about two different "DMMDA's" so the theory still stands.) There are other active impurities present though and some of them have research to show they are active in ranges near that of MDMA on certain receptor sites. (The ref I'm thinking of only checked 12 known MDMA impurities and found a few fairly active ones so there's gotta be more out there.)
Not sure how the MDMA was different back then but based on dosages people took and effects felt it's obvious something might have changed.
I'm curious if anyone who used to take MDMA back in the early 90's ever came across "pure" MDMA? One thing I also find interesting is how back then people claimed they couldn't make that large of crystals (or any crystals at all, mostly powder up until the past 10yrs or so) yet we see monster shards these days... Questions, questions..
-GC
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R-MDMA is reported to require a higher dose, but lasts much longer than both S- and RS-MDMA.
It doesn't release much D at all but does release NE, perhaps explaining the cracked out anxious after effects without any of the feel good dopamine.
I've just read through the entire thread and wanted to add my own anecdotal report, as someone in their late 20s who didnt experience mdma until the late 2000s, and so I'm not clouded by nostalgia for the "good old days" in any way. I don't have any chem knowledge so these are just my observations, trying my best to be objective.
I'm in Cali and have experience with MDMA powder from BC Canada, NL, took pills and powder in Berlin, as well as a fair amount of experience since 2009 with methylone, mephedrone, 4-fa, 6-apb, 5-mapb, and mescaline. I space out my MDMA rolls to a few times a year so I havent yet experienced "losing the magic" from fucked serotonin receptors, tolerance, or just becoming accustomed to the effects.
The mdma powder I got from BC was brown and smelled strongly of anise before I purified it using anhydrous acetone. It's now white powder and tests absolutely textbook for MDMA on 5 reagents and gives a relaible, incredibly blissful, euphoric, eyes rolling into the back of your head maybe even moaning and wanting to tell anyone around you about your childhood and how you love them, the things you're usually afraid to say, "this is how I wish I was all the time," lucid, horny, basically a perfect feeling at 125mg. The comedown is a comedown, but it's not dysphoric like a cathinone or high dose amp.. more like, oh I'm slowly losing that beautiful feeling I had before, but I still feel good. The next day afterglow is really nice like others have described. In some ways this reminds me of the day after 4-fa, where you still have some energy and general good vibes from the night before until late in the afternoon when you start to feel tired and the poor sleep from the night before catches up with you. With my dosage and responsible usage (only a few times a year and I do load up on the proper antioxidants) I actually don't experience a "suicide tuesday" or anything like it in the days following, but I think everyone's neurochemistry is different so this probably isn't universal even for good mdma. Also, pure mdma does drain serotonin so even with the best, racemic mix some more sensitive people are likely to experience a little depression after use - some might even have what they would describe as a "shitty" comedown on good mdma if they don't know how to calmly accept the gradual ascent to baseline, so I'm not sure this is the best subjective measure of purity or isomer ratio.
The mdma powder I got from NL was grey and didn't smell of safrole. Tested positive for mdma on my reagents. I didn't purify it so it requires a higher dose around 200mg or more. Mongy, people think it's MDA, low energy "couch lock," slightly psychedelic, not really good party material but still fun for a night at home. People aren't enthusiastic to try it again and would rather use K or even just plain speed at a party, which says a lot. Uncomfortable, with a body load getting closer to mescaline. I like psychedelics though so I don't mind, but this is definitely not one for the club. Really no dopamine pleasure to keep you positive out socializing.
The MDMA I had in berlin was fucking perfect, just like the BC MDMA. That was probably an outlier though since I got it from a drug nerd at an underground party. Set and setting do play a role in some ways (beautiful women around, a beautiful Berlin summer day, everyone feeling free), but you can't fake that dopamine and serotonin push. This is just to say that there is (or was, 6 years ago) good stuff in Eurpoe
5-MAPB with dex-amphetamine in the mix gives results very close to the BC pure MDMA (feels good as fuck), but none of the other research chems I've tried are anywhere close. So I don't think NL is pumping out cathinones or APBs because the difference is pretty damn obvious. 6-APB is like an intermediate of MDMA and mescaline. 5 + 6-apb in combo doesn't have the dopamine stimulation and clarity of mdma, and feels a bit more toxic on the body.
Not really related to the current conversation, but I agree with what someone said earlier in the thread and would like to repeat it: if any of you heads who love the empathy, lucidity, sexuality, and body high of mdma want to try something new, please do look into mescaline. You can buy peruvian torch directly from Peru, and just simmer it into a tea or if you want to minimize the disgusting taste and body load of the other alkaloids do a basic extraction (the instructions are easily found via google). The rolling, euphorc body high can rival MDMA, with a lovely psychedelic but lucid psychoanalytic headspace. The perfect drug for a night of therapy, either alone or with someone you love. Just a tip for those who have "lost" the mdma magic!
I'm in Cali and have experience with MDMA powder from BC Canada, NL, took pills and powder in Berlin, as well as a fair amount of experience since 2009 with methylone, mephedrone, 4-fa, 6-apb, 5-mapb, and mescaline. I space out my MDMA rolls to a few times a year so I havent yet experienced "losing the magic" from fucked serotonin receptors, tolerance, or just becoming accustomed to the effects.
The mdma powder I got from BC was brown and smelled strongly of anise before I purified it using anhydrous acetone. It's now white powder and tests absolutely textbook for MDMA on 5 reagents and gives a relaible, incredibly blissful, euphoric, eyes rolling into the back of your head maybe even moaning and wanting to tell anyone around you about your childhood and how you love them, the things you're usually afraid to say, "this is how I wish I was all the time," lucid, horny, basically a perfect feeling at 125mg. The comedown is a comedown, but it's not dysphoric like a cathinone or high dose amp.. more like, oh I'm slowly losing that beautiful feeling I had before, but I still feel good. The next day afterglow is really nice like others have described. In some ways this reminds me of the day after 4-fa, where you still have some energy and general good vibes from the night before until late in the afternoon when you start to feel tired and the poor sleep from the night before catches up with you. With my dosage and responsible usage (only a few times a year and I do load up on the proper antioxidants) I actually don't experience a "suicide tuesday" or anything like it in the days following, but I think everyone's neurochemistry is different so this probably isn't universal even for good mdma. Also, pure mdma does drain serotonin so even with the best, racemic mix some more sensitive people are likely to experience a little depression after use - some might even have what they would describe as a "shitty" comedown on good mdma if they don't know how to calmly accept the gradual ascent to baseline, so I'm not sure this is the best subjective measure of purity or isomer ratio.
The mdma powder I got from NL was grey and didn't smell of safrole. Tested positive for mdma on my reagents. I didn't purify it so it requires a higher dose around 200mg or more. Mongy, people think it's MDA, low energy "couch lock," slightly psychedelic, not really good party material but still fun for a night at home. People aren't enthusiastic to try it again and would rather use K or even just plain speed at a party, which says a lot. Uncomfortable, with a body load getting closer to mescaline. I like psychedelics though so I don't mind, but this is definitely not one for the club. Really no dopamine pleasure to keep you positive out socializing.
The MDMA I had in berlin was fucking perfect, just like the BC MDMA. That was probably an outlier though since I got it from a drug nerd at an underground party. Set and setting do play a role in some ways (beautiful women around, a beautiful Berlin summer day, everyone feeling free), but you can't fake that dopamine and serotonin push. This is just to say that there is (or was, 6 years ago) good stuff in Eurpoe
5-MAPB with dex-amphetamine in the mix gives results very close to the BC pure MDMA (feels good as fuck), but none of the other research chems I've tried are anywhere close. So I don't think NL is pumping out cathinones or APBs because the difference is pretty damn obvious. 6-APB is like an intermediate of MDMA and mescaline. 5 + 6-apb in combo doesn't have the dopamine stimulation and clarity of mdma, and feels a bit more toxic on the body.
Not really related to the current conversation, but I agree with what someone said earlier in the thread and would like to repeat it: if any of you heads who love the empathy, lucidity, sexuality, and body high of mdma want to try something new, please do look into mescaline. You can buy peruvian torch directly from Peru, and just simmer it into a tea or if you want to minimize the disgusting taste and body load of the other alkaloids do a basic extraction (the instructions are easily found via google). The rolling, euphorc body high can rival MDMA, with a lovely psychedelic but lucid psychoanalytic headspace. The perfect drug for a night of therapy, either alone or with someone you love. Just a tip for those who have "lost" the mdma magic!
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^^Id also agree Mescaline is one hell of an empathogen, MDMA AND Mescaline is godly hehe. I had a life changing experience on a monster log of Pedro and 100+50mg very pure (the good stuff we talk about in this thread) MDMA. For weeks after that experience i would just burst out crying at the sheer beauty the world offers us on a daily basis.
After my last post above I've been researching the topic of polymorphism more especially in regards to pharmaceuticals as that's where most of the research lies. I feel after nearly a decade of researching this topic (the topic the OP and others have fought to bring to light despite criticism) I've finally connected the dots in this whole mystery. Or at least enough to give us firm understanding of how we can proceed.. It's not conclusive but I feel the theory I'll present in an upcoming thread (hopefully this weekend) has by far the most evidence to back it.
All of the variation we see in MDMA experiences comes down to essentially 3 factors and I'll give you a hint... Isomers likely isn't one of them. I admire the people of bluelight for their ongoing debate on this topic but the current theory is frankly unsound and many have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for quite some time. I do believe isomers may have played a role in the quality of the MDMA in the late 80's early 90's back when there was large quantities synthesized right before it was made illegal by contract companies in India and China (just like with RC's today) but again I'll save it for the thread.
-GC
After my last post above I've been researching the topic of polymorphism more especially in regards to pharmaceuticals as that's where most of the research lies. I feel after nearly a decade of researching this topic (the topic the OP and others have fought to bring to light despite criticism) I've finally connected the dots in this whole mystery. Or at least enough to give us firm understanding of how we can proceed.. It's not conclusive but I feel the theory I'll present in an upcoming thread (hopefully this weekend) has by far the most evidence to back it.
All of the variation we see in MDMA experiences comes down to essentially 3 factors and I'll give you a hint... Isomers likely isn't one of them. I admire the people of bluelight for their ongoing debate on this topic but the current theory is frankly unsound and many have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for quite some time. I do believe isomers may have played a role in the quality of the MDMA in the late 80's early 90's back when there was large quantities synthesized right before it was made illegal by contract companies in India and China (just like with RC's today) but again I'll save it for the thread.
-GC
Shady's Fox
Bluelighter
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- Jul 12, 2017
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- 19,190
Well Eve nowadays is pretty fucked up considering all the variations we see, I can quite say that back in the 70' all way to 90's/00' they changed indeed. Also, these pills nowadays are most likely what I see it's just a combo(also which you can try if you would like) between methylone and mbdb/ 2c-1 - dmx/ mescaline. I just miss dolphins, dove, mitubishi, those little rockets and much more, I just cry when i look back in that beautiful era but we still got something left these days like teslas which can be pretty loving. Now considering we look back in time when we used to get powder, at least some of us and I remember in 04', I was at a rave with my guys & girl and I got the oportunity to try I think the purest since then, they were some good crystal not very light but also the taste and the way it feels when you snort it. Somehow last year I got hold of a pretty nice amount of pure and it just didn't feel right
What I think is that the magic we old skool experienced was because our brain loved that specifically singing high chord and feel for it and we just want some memories back or that manufacters/growers liked the idea of not fucking up everything and just love the nature itself and what she gives. Yet the oportunities today can still
Fellow ravers we like our little orange juice, keep it right beside pacifier
What I think is that the magic we old skool experienced was because our brain loved that specifically singing high chord and feel for it and we just want some memories back or that manufacters/growers liked the idea of not fucking up everything and just love the nature itself and what she gives. Yet the oportunities today can still
as I said in the beginning offer you some of a classic eve kinda view but not that close.
Fellow ravers we like our little orange juice, keep it right beside pacifier
Steady Scootin
Bluelight Crew
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Good read for the most part. And he may very well know his chemistry, personally I'm completely if ignorant regarding the subject and wouldn't know, but of one thing can be certain when it comes to Shugenja, and it's that he has no idea what "question begging" is, which made for some pretty funny posts.
Hopefully this isn't seen as a personal attack, it just made for some good laughs considering all the yelling from atop his soapbox.
Hopefully this isn't seen as a personal attack, it just made for some good laughs considering all the yelling from atop his soapbox.
LucidSDreamr
Bluelighter
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- May 23, 2013
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- 7,327
If I had to bet money on this being a real phenomenon it would be caused by:
1. Polymorohism
2. ee in the r or s direction from chiral material present.
3. MDMA isobars present that are being analyzed as mdma during LCMS or gcms
1. Polymorohism
2. ee in the r or s direction from chiral material present.
3. MDMA isobars present that are being analyzed as mdma during LCMS or gcms
LucidSDreamr
Bluelighter
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You couldn't tell racemic from a pure enantiomer via LCMS unless a chiral stationary phase. Why do you think that a multiplet suggests racemic?
And as to the nmr techniques they could not tell racemic from a non racemic r s ratio either.
Nor would they tell you about polymorphs which could drastically alter effects.
1oo percent MDMA by LCMS or nmr isn't enough to address the problems this thread discusses other than impurities.
Personally I think drugs are different when you are 20 vs 40...your brain is different...placebo exists also. I have had amazing rolls from all different types of presses and powders and complete shit rolls with the exact same samples...mdma is a hit or miss drug sometimes
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Following earlier message
Intrigued onlooker
Greenlighter
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One time I took a 250mg+ and it was not MDMA. I was a newb back then and would highly recommend getting a test kit just in case the substance in question is fake. I'm almost certain I had some MDXX structure mixed with speed because I never felt so jolted in my life at that point. Yet street lights seemed to be geometrical in shape against the dark night. It was a strange experience and I wish I knew 100% what it was.
Get a testing kit.
Get a testing kit.
^^^To this post and many others please actually read the thread before posting. If you had you'd realize we are far beyond the "get a test kit" argument.
Also I apologize for taking so long to post my theories in another thread but it'll finally be soon now that I have internet access, almost have it complete on word..
-GC
Also I apologize for taking so long to post my theories in another thread but it'll finally be soon now that I have internet access, almost have it complete on word..
-GC
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