*Picks up the mic* Ehemm.. Check. Check. Is this thing still on?
Well I keep saying I wouldn't come back to this site but I'll be damned you guys just have such lively discussions I couldn't help myself. This is a topic I've thought about tremendously simply out the fact that thats how I am, I absolutely love MDMA and this is just one of many that has caught my interest.
I have to start with that I agree with both sides lol. That is shugenja vs everyone else. I do believe there is something wrong with the way this dutch MDMA is being synthesized, but I don't believe it is an isomer issue. (It could be but the probability is more likely on what I'll soon describe.) I used to believe isomers were the reason MDA experiences and duration varied so much over the years but have since changed my mind on that as well. In this post I'll lay out my theories for why MDMA has changed over the years, including why the 90's MDMA was also different.
MDMA is MDMA. In a perfect world yes... But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where these drugs are highly regulated and synthesis by products and precursors not being properly cleaned out means more money. And in some cases a stronger product depending on the synthesis. Each route has unique set of by products synthesized that allow forensic chemists the ability to hone in on the synthetic route used.
Here is a reference that is actually found in the Erowid Rhodium Archive. It lists out the different by product contaminants for four of the more popular synthetic routes. To the mods, this is not synthesis talk but merely labeling the impurities which can be found. I will make sure to not get into direct synthesis talk.
-Impurities found in MDMA synthesized with the reductive amination-
-4-Methyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzaldehyde, piperonal
-4-Allyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene, safrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene, isosafrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propylbenzene
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzyl-N-methylamine
-3,4-(Methylemedioxy)phenylpropanone
-1,2-(Dimethoxy)-4-propenylbenzene
-1,2-Methylenedioxy-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine, MDA
-1-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanol-2
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-(2-N-methyliminopropyl)benzene
-N-Methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene,
3,4-(methylenedioxy)methylamphetamine, MDMA, Ecstasy
N,N-Dimethyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene
N-Ethyl,N-methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene
-Impurities found in MDA synthesized with the Leuckart reaction-
-4-Allyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene, safrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene, isosafrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propylbenzene
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanone
-Isosafrole glycol
-N-Formyl MDA
-Di-[1-(3,4-methylenedioxy)phenyl-2-propyl]amine
-Di-[1-(3,4-methylenedioxy)phenyl-2-propyl]methylamine
-Impurities found in MDA synthesized with the nitropropene route-
-Hydroxyskatole
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzaldehyde, piperonal
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylmethanol
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanone
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzylmethylketoxime
-1-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-nitro-1-propene
-N-[β-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenylmethyl]-3,4-(methylenedioxy)benzaldimine
-N,N-Di-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylmethyl]amine
-Di-[3,4-(methylenedioxy)phenylpropanone]
-N-(β-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]phenylisopropyl)-3,4-(methylenedioxy)benzaldimine
-N-(β-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]phenylisopropyl)-3,4-(methylenedioxy)benzylketimine
-Impurities found in MDA or MDMA synthesized with the bromopropane reaction-
-1,7,7-Trimethylbicyclo(2,2,1)heptan-2-one, Camphor
-4-Allyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene, safrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene, isosafrole
-2-Methoxy-4-(2-propenyl)phenol, eugenol
-2-Methoxy-4-propenylphenol, isoeugenol
-4-Allyl-1,2-(dimethoxy)benzene
-1,2-(Dimethoxy)-4-propenylbenzene
-1-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanol-2
-N-Methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene,
-3,4-(methylenedioxy)methylamphetamine, MDMA, Ecstasy
-N-Methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(3-aminopropyl)]benzene
-1-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenyl-2-methoxypropane
-N-Methyl-1-[1-(hydroxy)-2-(methoxy)]-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene
-4-Allyl-1,2,3-trimethoxybenzene
-N-Methyl-1-[1,2-(dimethoxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene
-1-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]-4-(2-bromopropyl)]benzene
-1-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]-4-(3-bromopropyl)]benzene
-2-Methoxy-4-(2-bromopropyl)phenol
-1,2-Dimethoxy-4-(2-bromopropyl)benzene
-1,2-Dimethoxy-4-(3-bromopropyl)benzene
-1,2,3-Trimethoxy-4-(2-bromopropyl)benzene
Reference: Impurities in Illicit Drug Preparations: 3,4- Methylenedioxyamphetamine and 3,4- Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine. A.M.A. Verweij, Forensic. Sci. Rev. 4,137-146 (1992)
The point of this was to show that each route produces impurities unique to itself. And that isn't even all of them.. There is many variables above that could influence an experience if the product isn't as pure. Now I know some people would say, "well how do we know if any of those are even active?" well many probably aren't but some are and some are probably synergistic or at least only active when mixed with other substances. The next two references will detail a few known active impurities found.
The first is a study that looked at some of the impurities found in various synthetic routes for MDMA. They really only talk about two substances though mostly as being comparable to MDMA in inhibiting reuptake (although they didn't test all impurities only 8.) Of the eight they found two with reuptake inhibition in micromolar similar to MDMA. These two synthesis byproducts were; 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine and N-formyl-1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine. I won't go into too much detail but will hit a few of the main points. Essentially these two compounds are unique to the Leuckart reaction, and while they inhibit monoamine transporters they didn't release well (only the first did, weakly.) They also found that these substances actually inhibited the MDMA of it's action when administered 4mins before the MDMA.
Reference: Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters. Christian Pifl, Gabor Nagy, Sandor Berenyi, Alexandra Kattinger, Harald Reighter, and Sandor Antus. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics July 2005.
This would prove here that it is possible for impurities to inhibit the action of MDMA. Although the Leuckart is rarely, if ever, used for mass production of MDMA/MDA anymore. But what's interesting is that it was the main synthetic route for the early 90's according to another study found in the Rhodium Archives. Some would think, "how in the hell?" A synthetic route that produces impurities which inhibit the the action of MDMA??? Used primarily during the early 90's?!?!? Get the fuck out your prolly saying.
Well this study I'm about to reference also found two impurities in the Leuckart that may be highly active. The first is n-formyl-MDMA and n-formyl-MDA respectively. Now there is no real evidence that these two are active but if we look at the study above with the two synthesis byproducts that showed activity, the N-formyl of the first compound was active so it's possible that these compounds are active as well. But these aren't probably the culprit to why MDMA in the 90's was so f'ing strong (seriously we are talking 60mg would supposedly have people rolling good for 4 hours). This study also found DMMDA!
Now before I go on about DMMDA, I will say that this study also tested one sample of ecstasy to determine its route of synthesis and found the Leuckart was used. So we can assume the Leuckart was at least a very popular route at that time.
On to DMMDA... A highly active substance that was talked about in PIHKAL. Dosage listed in the 30-75 mg range, which is about 2x more potent than MDMA. While the PIHKAL reports don't sound promising, we see that at 75mg it was similar in potency to a decent hit of LSD at 75-100ug. (We must remember that how everyone nowadays compares drugs to MDMA as a frame of reference, back then it was with LSD.) Now while the reports in PIHKAL don't sound great there are other reports for other closely related compounds like DMMDA-2 which show MDMA-like effects at rather low doses. With DMMDA as an impurity it is possible it could have synergized with the MDMA to make it more potent.
To be honest I'm still kinda unsure about what active impurity in Leuckart synth'ed MDMA was the one to make it so potent and long lasting back then, but what I do know is this.. The supposed quality dropping like the old timers say from the early 90's corresponds with people slowly switching over to the aluminum amalgam method. A study which I will get later because I'm running out of time here shows that ecstasy tested in hong kong in the early 00's showed most of it was produced via Al amalgam with a few samples testing as Leuckart.
Now I'm not one of those people that thinks the MDMA of today is somehow inferior (except for the dutch product everyones complaining of, of course) because I have had experiences that honestly rival just about anyones, so I know the "magic" is out there and even on my 12th year of rolling this year I had an experience that made me question if losing the magic is even a real thing. So powerful, so much love and empathy, so long lasting, and the next day was pure bliss (as usual though..) But I do believe based on all the research I've done that the MDMA in the early 90's was definitely "different," the dosages in the pills just doesn't add up for the effects given.
I know this is super long, it's what I'm know for but this is all pretty important info to the topic/s at hand.
But just as the dosages of the MDMA in the pills then doesn't make sense, so does the dosages in these supposed "super dutch pills" don't make sense either. I've honestly never seen someone have a roll I would consider "good" on these things and often people tell me they aren't feeling much even though the pill is tested in the high 100'smg. Just doesn't make a lick of sense.. I've never taken them but have taken pure dutch MDMA before (I won't list my credentials here but where I'm from things are good here, most of the MDMA here is safrole made from Canada but of course with the advent of the dark web dutch MDMA is just a click away. From what I've seen with the MDMA sourced dutch via darkweb as well as the dutch super presses, is exactly what others have seen..
It hits hard and quick, but is so stimmy and introverted. Lacking the love and empathy that I've come to expect. Someone may think they've lost the magic from shit like this yet so many people take it and think it's good simply cuz it reacts right.
Since you guys mentioned the "new stuff" tests instant black with almost a hint of brown, I decided to start testing as many samples I could. I've tested over 10 so far and have seen somewhat of a correlation but my belief is that the marquis turning purple has to do with safrole contamination as others have suggested. One sample looked exceedingly pure, one 150mg crystal literally looked like a tiny quartz with six flat sides that converged into a spike. It tested as others have said (straight black no purple) and gave an alright experience but was definitely more introverted and for the first time ever, I only rolled for 3 hours!! I've been rolling 4-5 times on average per year for the past 12 years and have never had a roll that short before or since. 100mg was strong but I felt like was kinda screwed over on my roll and didn't leave "satisfied." When I roll I expect at least 4, but closer to 5-6 hours (including using a booster dose.)
But just because product tests purple doesn't mean it's good, many of the samples which tested purple were still rather impure. I would say it just gives some idea as to the possible synthetic route used. It could be synthesized from safrole but there are so many other variables that make or break the end product.
The smell thing though is something I've also noticed with alot of this dutch product, even when it has an amber color to the crystal and looks rather impure there is still no safrole smell..
What I can tell you guys to help you in your venture to find the product you all seek is this.. The best product I've had over the years is almost always like this. It should look like near transparent crystals, with well defined edges and sides, but compared to the dutch crystal it has more "jagged" edges (hard to describe but something I can look and see now). It should have seemingly no smell upon first whiff but if you take a crystal and crack it open with a razor you should get a faint quick smell of safrole. This has been, hands down, the best product I've taken and I've come across it on many occasions. It's obvious it's not all the same but again things are well here.
Not sure why the crystals look slightly different than the imported dutch product, but the smell seems to be a good indicator. Essentially the slight smell indicates route of synthesis but you still want pure crystals, too much smell isn't good either. While I find MDMA/MDA with a good amount of residuals oils is still decently active, it gives me side effects I don't get with the purest of crystals, mainly nausea, back/muscle aches, and occasional headaches. Although I'm a hyper sensitive person who suffers these often sober, but it's the reason I search for the best on all occasions.
Hope this post helps someone. Again mods at no point do I discuss how to make any drugs to any extent that would allow someone to make anything. Please allow this to stay.
Funny how last time I was here I was arguing that 5-MAPB varies due to impurities (MUCH moreso than MDMA I might add) and now I'm here to talk about MDMA.
Love you all and hope that product you seek finds everyone deserving of it. Know that it is out there, and as you guys said once everyone catches on that these supposed "super dutch pills" aint so great then people will go back to the old ways of production that actually worked. For those that have tried the Chi-town mints (back when they produced em) as well as the dutch super pills know what I'm talking about.
I'll prolly be back with more if people want. I've only studied this drug for the past decade extensively, it's amazing how complex it is. This is just the chemistry aspect, the pharmacological aspect is just as deep.
And a few more variables that come to mind...
Ammonium chloride impurity found in methylamine gives rise to MDA as an impurity.
Dimethylamine found in methylamine gives rise to MDDMA.
Nitroethane can be found as an impurity in nitromethane, making MDE as an impurity.
The list really goes on and on...
I'm done.
-GC
