Question for people who have had very many psychedelic experiences

[burn out]

I am curious how many of you folks who have tripped a great many times have gone down a spiritual road as a result and discovered the trans personal realms of awareness that lie beyond the ego effect?

For me personally, I feel like psychedelics all but forced me to become more spiritual because of their tendency to break down illusions and expose the dark areas of my mind. I feel like if I had tried to continue using psychedelics without working on my spiritual growth alongside, I would not have been able to handle the increasingly shattering experiences and would either have gone crazy or simply stopped tripping due to the experiences becoming too weird and unfriendly.

As a result of my experiences, I have had many revelations about the nature of reality and the way I experience myself has completely changed.

It seems to be the case that many famous psychedelic researchers like Leary, Alpert, Grof, etc also went down spiritual paths as a result of their psychedelic experiences and developed transpersonal (beyond ego) understandings of the human psyche.

However, it seems this is not the case for everyone. For instance a friend of mine at work told me he has been using shrooms and LSD for over thirty years, had hundreds of trips, and he just considers it good fun. Its not a spiritual or transformation experience for him. I also see people on these forums who have done a lot of pyschedelics but still seem to live entirely within the egoic frame of reference. Shulgin in another guy who comes to mind, although psychedelics certainly were spiritual and transformative for him he seemed more interested in testing and making new psychedelics than in the actual revelations he received.

Could it be that people like me who can't seem to take psychedelics without having a spiritual experience are simply born more aware of the spiritual nature of reality? It's not a matter of me imagining some spiritual meaning into my trips that isn't there, because the experience is transformative for me no matter what I do. I mean, there are times when I would like to just be able to trip for fun without having to meet God but that doesn't seem possible. I can't trip without a strong possibility I will come out of the experience changed. What you wanna call the change is up to you, but I call it spiritual.

But yeah, thats my question, because I am surprised when I see long term psychedelic users talk about it as though it were some kind of recreation.

 

[Solipsis]

Psychedelics have the potential for all of it, the transcendental / spiritual and the recreational, the therapeutic and .. more?

Too much tripping raised too many questions and played a role in a lack of skepticism for me. It was revealed that illusions that I didn't know where there could be broken down, but it was often too confusing and fantastic to comprehend what truth is behind that - eagerly assuming that since it was behind an illusion, THAT must be the real truth, while it may just as easily be another illusion or a result of the nature of our brain...

Already being inquisitive at that point and tempering psychedelic use, some quirky beliefs could be discarded - sieved by asking what we can actually know or conclude, resisting any false enlightenments.

I couldn't say what makes a certain person never ask about the nature of reality or the essence of things, of themselves. I suppose psychedelics wouldn't catalyze what a person has no affinity for engaging?
Guess I'd be very curious about what people with only recreational trips experience when they are confronted with their death / feeling like they seize to exist... if that just raises panic and confusion but not a springboard to the deeply philosophical and existential?

Are they hardheads because of polymorphism of the 5ht2a receptors in their nervous system, and as such never push the envelope as much as other people?

 

[Ismene]

I guess the question is what you consider a "spiritual path". If, like Ram Dass, psychedelics led you to waste your life in the dead-end of Hinduism then it seems clear he never got the point of psychedelics in the first place. I can find the deepest spiritual transcendence in psychedelic laughter. I consider that vastly superior to any pseudo-religious "spirituality".

I think psychedelics when used with a thinking mind can actually reveal the delusion of much so-called "spirituality". Certainly psychedelic use quickly extinguished any thought I had for buddhism.

And the question of whether something that strikes you as "truth" on psychedelics is actually true for your sober life is another question entirely.

 

[Incunabula]

As a result of my experiences, I have had many revelations about the nature of reality and the way I experience myself has completely changed.

So how do you know, that what you've experienced on psychedelics is the truth? How do you know, that you're not just being so naive and gullible, that you're actually selfsuggesting your self to believe some crazy mumbo jumbo nonsense. I mean, it's great if it works for you, but be carefull that you don't get stuck on some high horse, with your "truth".

I personally think that people who consider themselves "spiritual" are phony, no offense meant. It's just my honest opinion - and it's pretty arrogant too.

Psychedelics affects every one differently. Hell, most drugs affects every one different, but more so with psychedelics. It's because we're all as different inside physically, as we are on the outside.

I don't have any problem philosophizing or thinking big thoughts about life and the universe without tripping. On the contrary, sometimes the epinaphanies I've had tripping latter turned out to be just crap.

 

[Solipsis]

No need to get religion into this and risk confusing it with spirituality or philosophy. It's perfectly possible to philosophize and think deeply, have a transcendental experience and feel transformed without anything religious or supernatural coming into the picture, pseudo or not.
For me the word spiritual has a lot of sadly negative connotations, like you would have to believe in deities or an eternal individual soul... but I'm fine with it just referring to what one feels deep deep inside - the sum of their essence just as a continuous experience. I had a big beef with religion but think that mysticism like meditation is so deeply rooted in experience that you cannot reject it, since you cannot reject experience.

For example just seeing how very relative it is growing up as a person, with one's often petty hangups, in contrast with what else is going on - beginning with REALLY seeing things from the perspective of other people (well not perfectly, that's impossible - but beyond the fleeting empathy I mean), then extending your range to sociology, ecology, history - the astronomical, the implications of something as seemingly simple yet mystical as time...

I'd say that going through a psychedelic trip, and getting your senses warped, then coming out feeling little more than 'wow, that was warp-y on my senses' is different from the above. It's not even a judgement or anything meant by transcendental other than that your perspective can transcend that of the normal shortsightedness in your everyday life. It can do a whole range of things like make you more curious about aspects of the world, to becoming more compassionate after having experienced things in a different frame of mind or being humbled, to scare or confuse people if they can't integrate it...

So in my opinion there is not a premise here that has to be questioned. It's not about revealed knowledge (like the epiphanies mentioned) but insight, perspective - a change in the way you look at things, not what you know things to be - the value of certain experiences regardless of how much of a hallucination they were, or how artificial the reason of the laughter. What it means to you can change you, is the point - and I'd be dumbfounded if someone would argue that to be impossible.

 

[tokezu]

I have never really been spiritually inclined and so far psychedelics haven't changed that. If my experiences with psychedelics have influenced me in a certain direction I would say it was towards scepticism, particularly about our ability to make any definitive claims about the nature of reality. To quote one of my favourite authors "A true initiation never ends", there is always something new to discover, and whenever we incorporate these new discoveries into a believe system we inadvertently jump to conclusions and make unfounded assumptions, and with that we are laying the basis for the next "Oh... now I get it!"-moment when we discover a new 'truth'. So I try to treat every new 'truth' that came from a psychedelic experience (or any kind of experience, really) as just another model, which probably has some truth, but also some mistakes / misinterpretations to it.

But then again maybe it's just that I never had *that* kind of experience others are talking about... I have been wondering for a long time, if I just enjoy higher doses of psychedelics than the people I took them with in the past or if I am simply less effected by them then they were. I have never had any experiences with ego-death or any kind of mystical experience or a ++++ experience or whatever you want to call it. And although I have taken psychedelics quite a few times, I'm probably not nearly as experienced as many others on this board.

Certainly psychedelic use quickly extinguished any thought I had for buddhism.

How so? I always felt that buddhism, when stripped of the dogma and the influences of shamanic traditions, would be pretty compatible with the psychedelic experience. Not that I necessarily *believe* in it, but it does seem to kind of make sense... at least a little more than most other religions that I know of.

 

[AnanasBannana]

Here's my thoughts - you think you're becoming transcendent and learning the secrets of the universe. In reality, you're just high.

I think it's quite a good method of therapy though, becoming aware of parts of yourself that you usually ignore. But finding Gods or other spiritual entities through altered brain synapses... nope.

 

[burn out]

So how do you know, that what you've experienced on psychedelics is the truth? How do you know, that you're not just being so naive and gullible, that you're actually selfsuggesting your self to believe some crazy mumbo jumbo nonsense. I mean, it's great if it works for you, but be carefull that you don't get stuck on some high horse, with your "truth".

I personally think that people who consider themselves "spiritual" are phony, no offense meant. It's just my honest opinion - and it's pretty arrogant too.

Psychedelics affects every one differently. Hell, most drugs affects every one different, but more so with psychedelics. It's because we're all as different inside physically, as we are on the outside.

I don't have any problem philosophizing or thinking big thoughts about life and the universe without tripping. On the contrary, sometimes the epinaphanies I've had tripping latter turned out to be just crap.

I never said I knew what I experienced was the truth, I said that whether I like it or not, whether I call it "spiritual" or not, whether I want it or not, my experiences tend to permanently transform my perception of the world and the self.

I have explored the notion that there is nothing spiritual or spiritually useful about psychedelics, but eventually realized they change me in ways I can't understand even if I am most resistant to that happening.

 

[burn out]

Here's my thoughts - you think you're becoming transcendent and learning the secrets of the universe. In reality, you're just high.

I think it's quite a good method of therapy though, becoming aware of parts of yourself that you usually ignore. But finding Gods or other spiritual entities through altered brain synapses... nope.

There's no difference in my mind. One person takes a psychedelic and becomes whole, they call it finding God. Another has a similar experience and calls it therapy. Don't get confused over the terms people use.

 

[ImDirtyDan]

Its honestly a weird thing to say, but I am 21 and I like who I am today. I like where I am going. And thought the past I don't know 5 Years or so, through the use of different t drugs, including psychedelics, have made me love and understand myself and who I am a lot more. Along with understand life and the world. Conscienceness, reality, yada yada. I actually had this revelation the 3rd time i did mdma. Kind of confusing but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Drugs made me the person I today. Not a bad thing. Others would tell you im going to hell.

 

[Ismene]

Perhaps the biggest spiritual delusion of all is believing what you think on psychedelics is comparable to any other form of "spirituality".

 

[tokezu]

^ Well there have been studies on the potential of psychedelics to induce mystical experiences and these seem to indicate that there is nothing inherently different about drug-induced versus non-drug-induced mystical experiences. Google Roland Griffiths psilocybin study for example.

 

[consumer]

I used to be an athiest punk...until DMT entered my life. I have had many experiences on DMT that have shown me that there is more to all this than meets the eye.

 

[ImDirtyDan]

I used to be an athiest punk...until DMT entered my life. I have had many experiences on DMT that have shown me that there is more to all this than meets the eye.

DMT. What a drug.

 

[Ismene]

^ Well there have been studies on the potential of psychedelics to induce mystical experiences and these seem to indicate that there is nothing inherently different about drug-induced versus non-drug-induced mystical experiences. Google Roland Griffiths psilocybin study for example.

There's always profound problems with limitations in language with these studies tho. They always lead them to bullshit conclusions. It's like studies in the 50s and 60s that concluded there is no difference between LSD, mescaline and psilocybin. That came about because they asked questions like "Did the colours seem brighter?" and everyone says "Yes" for all 3 drugs and so they concluded "well, that must mean all 3 drugs are the same in effect". Language isn't subtle enough to describe the difference between psilocybin and LSD - it can only be experienced.

Griffiths is saying taking psilocybin takes you to the same place as sleep deprivation or having an infectious disease. Which we all know is bollocks. And I think he used deeply religious people for his study as well - so that obviously makes the results bollocks.

 

[MetanoiaMan]

Once you have seen the Primordial reality that exists beyond this physical world, and shapes it. The reality that precedes this life, follows this life and is interwoven in this very life, you cannot orient yourself towards anything else. If you do, you risk the great malaise that afflicts most of the world for whom the primordial reality beyond all the senses and the mind is a mystery:Depression....

 

[terarc]

I don't understand people who seemingly never experience that feeling of personal transformation from psychedelics. Spiritual is the best word for it, but it's not necessarily the same as God or anything like that. I'm an atheist and still feel that way. Although I don't necessarily subscribe to the following beliefs, after much serious reflection on my psychedelic experiences led me to the conclusions that a) it's all brain trickery from durgz innit, or b) consciousness is not what it seems, and may be some kind of field that a brain tunes into, and somehow when taking psychedelics, as said above me, we visit a kind of higher level of reality from which this one is shapen, a kind of 'decision space' containing all the possible states of your consciousness and environment could take. I could go on for hours and hours explaining details of that theory but it's only conjecture really so that's probably the simplest way to put it across.

 

[Ismene]

I always felt reducing psychedelics to the usual generic ideas of spirituality was kids stuff. The best way to use psychedelics is to reject all crutches of spirituality and with a thinking mind consider what you are experiencing. Don't instantly leap for the easy conclusion like "it's an ego-death" or "it's just like hinduism" etc. Make up your own mind. Psychedelics are the only form of spirituality that allow this.

As Bill Hicks said "All the people that created traditions and rules - them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance?"

 

[Solipsis]

One of the biggest conundrums for me: like you said either states of consciousness for us must be restricted to brain trickery, and - even - extreme states of consciouness that can only be described as 'singularity' (been there) are a result of completely dissociated brain activity with so much cut off that only undifferentiated awareness remains - a reductionist and materialist view I'd say ... OR that experience of pure being reveals a fundamental property of the universe: consciousness as information states in flux.
I've seen a TED talk about philosophy and science appearing ready to adopt or accept..
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_chalmers_how_do_you_explain_consciousness?language=en

An issue to overcome is or long has been my question how does one account for being to take anything back from extreme states of consciousness that leave cognition far behind, boggled. It's typical indeed that people do have trouble integrating or making any sense of a whiteout almost as much as a blackout. However: that feeling of pure being is not a place we briefly go to, and come back with our minds scrabled. We are in that place, always - but unceasingly distracted by everything that makes up our individual consciousness - the being itself is a transparent backdrop, invisible and intangible as such. But we are not more or less than made up of a greater field (field as in field theory: the thing that waves and appears as a particle if you look at a still of it, collapsed.

Psychedelics are not the only form of spirituality that allow that ^ @ismene. It's perfectly possible to meditate without any religious following and have similar mystical experiences. I found the effects of a meditation retreat comparable to the effects of LSD. In almost every way including visuals etc, just much more natural and stable/.
I didn't understand your earlier remark about giving up Buddhism. I do not strictly or actively follow or practise any religion or philosophy (as one other poster in this thread said in other words: metaphysical theories / models are merely provisional: they are a way to look at things that can be useful in a limited way, and another model can be useful in a different way. But if I were to pick one philosophy it would have to be the Perennial Philosophy that just pays attention to all the thing other religions and philosophies have in common and what that says about us or the world.)
... but the one that I have experience with that impressed me the most was Zen Buddhism because the occidental form that I attented at a few occasions was refreshingly self-undermining. It says to sit and concentrate, and most 'wisdoms' or instructions that came with it, apparently didn't impose a model - on the contrary they said to reject any persistent models and paradigms, at the very least temporarily and gradually, not even trying to exclude zen itself from that.

As far as gathering with other people to free your mind, what more do you want?

Yes there were rituals, but I think those are easily misunderstood. Nothing was out of pointless tradition, it's all to help facilitate concentration during meditative practice.
Sure, if you go to Japan and experience orthodox Zen Buddhism, there is way too much tradition for our likes by a mile!

You might be tempted to say: there is a mild version of any religion or philosophy that's basically harmless - and hmm yea kinda, but as soon as you start praying, it's so easy to get confused about what or who you are praying to.

 

[Ismene]

Psychedelics are not the only form of spirituality that allow that ^ @ismene. It's perfectly possible to meditate without any religious following and have similar mystical experiences. I found the effects of a meditation retreat comparable to the effects of LSD. In almost every way including visuals etc, just much more natural and stable/.

I never found this Solipsis - there is only so far a sober mind can take you. Meditation was never anywhere near psychedelics for me. (I know the theory is I've got to do it for 60 years and then I might "get the hang of it" - maybe, maybe not. Perhaps I'm a person who would just never feel the same as a religious monk would). Psilocybin offers so many other things apart from "mystical" experiences - doubled up, healing laughter which meditation never does, cathartic crying which meditation can never approach, appreciation of nature which sitting in the dark with your eyes closed is never going to give you. If I told someone "Psilocybin is only as good as meditation" I'd feel I was lying to them. Psilocybin is a vast, entire new world that meditation will never begin to approximate.

It says to sit and concentrate, and most 'wisdoms' or instructions that came with it, apparently didn't impose a model

I think they still haughtily frown on psychedelics tho - I remember reading "zig zag zen buddhism and psychedelics" and I don't think there's a single zen buddhist in there who considers psychedelics anything other than "taking drugs" and "it might be a good thing for a beginner but for the expert you have to follow the way of buddhism". Must admit - those guys really annoyed me. I always think of tibetan buddhism - 900 years to develop the perfect buddhist society and what did they come up with? A brutal feudal slave-labour state where they gouged out the tibetans eyes for pinching their goats. That's always summed up buddhism for me.