• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

I converted to Catholicism after many years deep in the drug culture, AMA

According to Christianity, all sins are forgivable, if you confess them to a priest. I don't agree by the way. A lot of things the church considers to be sin are things I disagree are even bad things, but they must be confessed too. As long as you confess to a priest, everything is forgivable, but if you don't, or if you're not a believer, you'll go to hell. I can't get down with that.

I believe you're good if you live your life with positive intention towards others, and do your best. Everyone makes mistakes. But most people don't ever rape or murder people.
 
Some background and thoughts about Catholic teaching on Sin, part 1

This is a much belated response to some questions above. I apologize for the length of time it took me to respond, and to respond to some other things people have posted here; these long posts take some time to compose. I hope they benefit people; if they don't evangelize or revive faith, I at least hope they help people to understand that Catholic faith and it's teachings a little bit, even though I am a lay person and hardly an expert, just a good memory, have read and consumed a lot of other media and information, good with the abstract metaphysical concepts and languages and stuff.

BTW In the footnotes I put some discursive material but some of which I think is pretty interesting (otherwise I'd have left it out ;)) and I hope you'll consider them worth reading.

Please don't be put off if I use technical terms or languages or whatever, I assume most are easily Google/Wiki'd or just ask :)


OK, on several occasions I saw this bumped, looked at it, and never got to it. My apologies. I'll now do another longer, digressive post. Part of the reason for my hesitation, perhaps, is that my spiritual life is not what it should be these days - faith is for almost all of us a constant internal struggle, not a simple decision to will oneself to believe (as the Arminian-type Evangelical Protestants and their theological descendants have it, this is what you will hear a lot of in America, "simply accept Christ as your personal savior," &c.), nor is it simply bestowed upon the predestined according to a providential plan (the Calvinist position, which you do not hear as popularly here, and for good reason, it's a rather unpleasant teaching that God has predestined some to Heaven and some to Hell; there are Biblical passages which vaguely support this, but the Catholic position is always not to merely pick a verse*

Catholic teaching on sin, grossly oversimplified, and once more disclaimed that I am not a theologian or a priest, is as such;

We are born in a state of Original Sin. As most will know, this derives from the narrative of the Fall of Man in Genesis (at chapter iii.)

Let's do a close read of the essential part of this narrative (the classic "eating the apple," although nowhere is it actually called an apple, and the following curses placed by God on mankind.) Let me state ahead of time that I am not necessarily saying these are literal historical events, they can just as well be treated as an allegorical explanation of the sinful nature of mankind, and indeed, very interestingly, contain within them the germ of Christian soteriology.

In the garden of Eden, there were two trees; the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God gave the Tree of Life to Adam and Eve; presumably, this would give they and their descendants and immortal and perfect existence in the Garden of Eden; but, of course, things didn't go down like that. The serpent—read as Satan, although he is not called Satan in Genesis—the Judgment Day scenario of Apoc. 20 calls him "the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan." In the same part of the Apocalypse, a very vivid vision of the end-of-the-world scenario, there are two books involved in the final judgment of "the living and the dead," one of these books being the Book of Life, and the other a book recording men's deeds; these do correspond rather neatly to the two trees of Genesis.

This scripture can be read in a rather forthright meaning, but the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" is particularly interesting. The following is a bit of my take on it, but follows along with Church doctrine. So, to reader at first glance, knowledge sounds good, right? And for God to deny knowledge to man would seem wrong, wouldn't it? Indeed, there have been heretical sects since very early in the Christian era and perhaps before who believe that interpreted in their particular esoteric fashion the eating of the "knowledge-fruit" to be a positive development, and see the serpent3 as the real hero of the narrative, and God to be a sort of tyrant; this is a forever-returning idea that's been hold by certain ancient Gnostic sects4, but this is contradicted about the entirety of the Scriptures, and creates a new religion entire. But, especially to the modern reader, "knowledge of good and evil" doesn't seem like a bad thing—or knowledge in general, full stop. The word is more complex, though; Hebrew דַּעַת, in the Septuagint (LXX), a pre-Christian translation of the Tanakh (OT) into Greek2, it is γιγνώσκω, from which γνῶσις (gnosis, as in gnosticism.) Neither term means "knowledge," exactly, in the general sense of the English word, "acquaintance" has proposed as a translation, in terms of having a particular sort of intimate knowledge. Essentially, by eating of the tree of knowledge, man not only gains knowledge, but capability, of good or evil, prior to that being sinless, although in some ways limited.

The text of actual conversation between woman and serpent is interesting5:

The serpent, the most cunning animal the LORD God had made, spoke thus to the woman:

—Did God really said to you, that you may not eat of any tree in the garden?

—We may eat from the fruits of the trees of the garden, but as for the fruit of [the Tree of Knowledge], God said, "You shall not eat from it, or touch it—or you will die the deatha!", [she answered.]

—You will surely not die the death! See, God knows that on the day that you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like a god, knowing good and evil.

The woman looked the tree over, seeing that it was fine food, and beautiful to look at, and worthy of desire in that it would grant understanding. So she took some of it's fruit and ate it; likewise, she gave some to her husband beside her, and he partook as well; whereupon both of their eyes were open, and they realized they were naked, so they sewed together fig-leaves to make loincloths.
Genesis, iii


Afterwards, God walks through the garden "at the time of the evening wind," which can be translated as at the time of the evening spirit. See two things here; God is walking among men—we hear otherwise in the Bible that to behold the face of God would strike a man dead (as was told to Moses in Exod. 33) this can taken (a) to be the second person of the Trinity, who would become incarnate in Jesus Christ, or (b) to show that man, before being cursed by God and expelled from the garden, shortly thereafter, could see the face of God without dying; perhaps both interpretations are true, or another, but clearly, as throughout the very beginning of the Bible, man enjoyed a much closer relationship with God; secondly, we can read alternatively "the evening spirit," (רוח = πνεύμα, both can be read as "spirit," "wind," "breath") and imagine that God visited our first parents every evening.

Next, the consequences. God calls after Adam, Adam comes forth, saying he hid himself because he was naked, God asks (rhetorically; not that He did not know, of course,) "who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree that I forbade you from eating from?"

Adam says, "the woman who You gave me, she gave me some of the fruit, and yes, I ate it."

So God asks the woman, "what have you done?" and she replies, "it was the serpent! He deceived me!"

Witness (a) the business of the nudity. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden before. They "realized" they were naked upon eating from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Their nakedness was innocent before, because they knew nothing of shame, because they lacked this knowledge, or rather, this "acquaintance" with good and evil, their now dual nature; seeing nakedness as shameful because they now knew of the sins that could involve or be provoked by it.

And (b) the blame game. Nothing unfamiliar to the modern couple. God asks Adam, basically WTF? He externalizes. He blames his wife. His wife blames the serpent. Nobody takes responsibility.

Then God curses the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than any livestock and more than any wild animal.You will move on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life. I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel6."

There's some interesting stuff going on here: "Your seed" directed as a woman doesn't make sense, taken literally; especially in the very patriarchal culture of the Jews at the time all of this was written. Seed means, in the most literal sense, semen, but more commonly as used in the Bible it means the children a man has sired by that means. So a "woman's seed" makes no sense, because the seed comes from a man, right?

Only one case in which that computes ...



And what about this business of striking the head, and the heel? Notice the bottom of the depiction of Mary before. Why is she standing on a snake? Her seed, Jesus, has defeated the Devil, "striking his head;" he died on the cross, but was resurrected. Only so much damage done. Striking his heel, metaphorically. A blow to the head is much more powerful than a blow to the heal. Mary, mater dolorosa is "struck" (this is also intimately related with the prophecy given by Simeon while Mary was with child, that a "sword would pierce her heart," meaning the grief of standing at the bottom of the cross watching the death of her son.) The snake at her feet is dead, though, having been struck down by Christ.

But that's all a long way off.

God then curses Adam and Eve to the difficulties we now know in life—her difficulty in childhood and subjugation to her husband; his needing to labor daily to "eat bread by the sweat of [his] brow"; even the ground is cursed, no longer bringing forth plentiful food for mankind to eat, but requiring intensive labor. God says,

You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow
until you return to the ground,
since you were taken from it.
For you are dust,
and you will return to dust6.

Remember all the business about "dying the death?" Most translations have this just as "die." In Hebrew, doubling the word is a way of intensifying or placing extra emphasis on it, "die!" So, the deception of the serpent here—he is not literally lying when he says that "you shall certainly not die…," as in, be struck dead immediately upon eating the fruit, but "…die the death" is a different matter. This means the introduction of mortality into the world. "For you are dust"—from which Adam was created—"and you will return to dust," die.

Saint Paul writes in his letter to the Romans, chapter 5: "… sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned."

The dual nature of acquaintance with/knowledge of good and evil were passed on from Adam and Eve onwards to all mankind. In a variety of places in both the Old and New Testaments (including a statement of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, "be thou perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.") St. James says, "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all," God at various places in the Torah demands perfect obedience to the law, "walk before me and be blameless," he asks of Abraham at one point.

Now, with "acquintance" with good and evil, who can be perfect?

Not a single one.

"All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God," St. Paul writes again in the letter to the Romans (ch. iii)

This is the matter of original sin. All are tainted with it. A specific Divine miracle gave Mary her "Immaculate Conception," which is not, as per a common misconception, a term for the miracle of the Virgin Birth. The Immaculate Conception prevented Mary from inheriting original sin, and she too, "a virgin without spot," remained sinless, and gave birth, miraculously, still as a virgin, to Jesus Christ, likewise untainted by original sin, and who lived a blameless and sinless life; his sacrifice on the Cross, via what is called the substitutionary atonement. The first letter of Peter, the first Pope, states, Christ "Himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, … [He] died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God," the same concept is found in the letters of Paul and elsewhere in Scripture, including many times allegorically (e.g. the Passover and the blood of the lamb—the Last Supper was, of course, a Jewish Passover meal, Christus innocens Patri reconciliator peccatores, as the beautiful Easter hymn Victimæ Paschali, has it.)



Some Evangelical Protestant Christians believe that one merely must "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" and then will be saved. Some Methodist and Holiness Pentecostals believe that after this is done, if done honestly, than one will no longer sin, citing verses like "No one who lives in Him [Christ] keeps on sinning." (I John iii, 6). But yet, even the holiest of people struggle with sin. St. Paul speaks honestly of his own struggles with the flesh in his letter to the Romans and elsewhere. Even priests and the Pope go to confession, and often. Frequent confession is encouraged by the Church and all recent, and most in general Popes have preached and practiced it. Pius XII and John Paul II, among others, went every day.

How do we reconcile this with the idea that "no one who lives in Him keeps sinning?" The spiritual life is a daily struggle. We are not at all moments living with Him, we are tempted by the flesh. Catholic theology calls this concupiscence. The word is often associated with sexual lust but does not by any means mean so exclusively. It means our own inborn inclination to do things that are contrary to the teachings of God, nature, and even our own well being. The Church teaches that human nature is originally good, tainted only by the fall, which, by virtue of knowledge/acquaintance with both good and evil, lead to the possibility of concupiscence, which by itself isn't a sin, but a strongly inclination to, although Jesus taught us that lusting after a woman in our heart (specifically) is akin to the sin of adultery, and sustained anger to murder.

One aspect of Catholic teaching that is not found in most Protestant denominationsis that of mortal versus venal sin. The First Letter of John speaks to this, "All unrighteousness is sin, and [or, but] there is sin that does not bring death," but also speaks of "sin that brings death" as a much graver matter. Death in this context can be understood in a similar sort of way to "dying the death," but herein is meant condemnation to Hell, as mortal sins do; venal sins rather add to time spent in Purgatory. Both should be confessed sacramentally.

Almost all people not dying in a state of mortal sin will spend time in purgatory before Heaven; there are Catholic teachings about specific lengths of time spent there, but in more modern teachings, time is more or less meaningless there (as it is for God, in Heaven, or in Hell.) Purgatory means a place of purgation, i.e. purging the soul of sin. It is not something to be feared so much as a step on the way. Catholics in fact pray for the "Holy Souls in Purgatory;" if there are "Holy Souls" there, it is not a place of punishment, but rather a part of the spiritual journey to blessedness and dwelling with God.

The Gk. term for sin, ἁμαρτία, etymologically means "missing the mark," as in shooting an arrow and missing the target. Sin is "missing the mark," the teachings of God and the guidelines set by Him for living a Holy life

There is no exhaustive list of what constitutes a sin, but there are several notable enumertions of serious sins. The "seven deadly sins" are compiled from various places in the Bible, and are: envy, gluttony, avarice, lust, pride, sloth, wrath. Other compilations of serious sins in the Bible include this one in the letter to Galatians, chapter 5: "Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Add to this, of course, the Ten Commandments; another list is found in Proverbs 6, very similar to the seven deadly sins, "… the Lord hates … a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren." These are for the most part counted among mortal sins, but are not an exhaustive list. Venal sins are more minor matters, but still important deviances from God.

Baptism, which can only be performed once, removes sin; in the Catholic church, it is usually practiced on infants, otherwise on people converting to Catholicism who did not previously have Christian baptism (the Church teaches that any Baptism "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost8" is valid, even if not done by a Catholic priest, and can be done in cases of emergency by laypeople, i.e. in a baby who has been just born but is dying.) This removes the "stain" of original sin, although not the possibility of concupiscence later on; Baptism of an adult removes all previous sins, as well. After that, Confession is needed. The Bible mentions "confess your sins to one another," but does not specifically call for a priest, but this has been the practice of the Church since time immemorial. This somewhat lengthy lecture by Dr Scott Hahn, a former Protestant minister who has converted to Catholicism, deals with confession in much more depth and with much more knowledge than I can here, and I'd highly recommend it; Dr Hahn's videos and other materials were instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism.

"Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is much spoken about, as the unforgivable sin. It comes, generally from one verse Matthew 12:31-2, "I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come." Context is important (see fn. 1) The context is that the Pharisees are accusing Jesus of being in league with Satan and, basically, using black magic to cast demons out of people. They are attributing a very important act of God, and one pivotal in the history of salvation, to Satan, rather than God. In the book of Isaiah, God, speaking to those people in Israel who were leaving the true faith, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (ch. v) This is not a sin that one can commit unknowingly. The Pharisees should have known better; they were well acquainted with Scripture and it's teachings and the expectation of moschiach, the Christ, but when He came, they accused him of being in league with Satan. This is not the sort of thing that an ordinary person is going to run into.

Apart from that, just as Christ says in the same passage, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. What is required is confession, penance, and a sincere act of contrition. Confession is just that. When you go in to the box (and many places will do away with that, sometimes just sitting back to back with the priest, or even face to face), if you are unsure of what you are doing, the priest will help. They have heard all sorts of things, and almost certainly have heard worse than anything that you have to say. They are not judgmental. They may give some advice, but the confessional is not for counseling. You need not get into a lot of detail, just name the sins that you have committed, what sort, how often ("number and kind" is a traditional phrase.) The act of contrition, there are various prewritten prayers, some long, some short, some more traditional, some more modern, but can also be a prayer of your own, but the prayer in essence is to tell God that you are sincerely sorry for having "missed the mark" and that you want to do better. This has to be sincere. You can't keep sinning and just figure, oh well, I can go to confession once next week, and be absolved. The confession and act of contrition have to be sincere. The penance can vary from the priest, classically and typically, it involves reciting some prayers, but sometimes it will be something else, I have been in confession and given a penance as simple as "do a nice thing for somebody today."

More later. Consider this part one; and I'll of course try to participate as best as I can with any questions or responses people give.

I also have something about the binding of Isaac but I lost it with a broken computer and intend to fix that up again, but these long posts do not just flow, there's a more than a bit of time and effort involved. This one took a few days (not constantly of course but I have to be in the right space and use the right part of my brain which is a bit tired now but I promise I'm going to return here with some more posts of the length/depth of this one, assuming people are interested)






________________________________________
Notes
1 It is worth noting that the chapters and verses in our modern Bibles are rather late innovations. Various methods of partitioning out the books for easy reference have existed for a long time, but they were usually specific to a specific manuscript, and those which were copied after it. Our chapters date to the 13th century (a very productive and beautiful century in Church history), verses in the NT date only to the famous Gk. publication of Stephanus in 1551 (also one of the first books published in the typeface Garamond, a modern permutation of which you almost surely have right on your computer.) OT verses developed by Jewish rabbis came only a little earlier, but in any event well into post-Biblical times. Why does this matter? It's a common fallacy to use these verses out of context in "proof-texting," where a circle of quotes from various sources is connected to formulate a doctrine rather than reading the Scripture in it's totality, and in it's context, and through the lens of Sacred Tradition. Biblical interpretation is called exegesis ("bringing forth"); reading one's own ideas into the Bible is called eisegesis ("bringing into,") which is never the right way to interpret Scripture. There's a humorously exaggerated anecdote that makes the point rather well. There was a man deep in depression seeking spiritual solace from Scripture, but he went about doing so in the following manner. He flipped he book open, and blindly pointed his finger to a spot on the page, finding himself at the book of Matthew, xvii, 5. And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself Disturbed, he tried it again, moving forward in the Bible to the Book of Luke, x, 37, which says in part, Jesus told him, Go yourself and do likewise. The final effort brought him to John, xiii, 27, which, again in part, has Jesus saying, Go and do likewise. Prof. Israel Shahak (Jewish History, Jewish Religion, chapter 3) relates that the Orthodox rabbinate interprets Exod. 23:2, "thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment," by reading only the last words of this sentence, "decline after many to wrest judgment," quite literally inverting the meaning. Shahak writes that the "text plainly warns against following the bandwagon in an unjust cause … [and is twisted so as to be] interpreted as an injunction to follow the majority." The moral of the story being be very careful of literature and preachers who constantly are citing single verses to prove one point or another, without context—historical, traditional, and in the text surrounding the verse. The Catholic and Orthodox attitudes toward the Bible tend to be more holistic, while still believing, when it comes to Scripture, than Protestants; one of Luther's bywords was sola scriptura, but this is a self-defeating fallacy—to say, sola scriptura, one must define scriptura, which necessarily invokes extra-scriptural Tradition; not to mention that the whole concept of Bible interpretations being personal or subjective (even to a pastor preacher); not to mention, in Scripture itself, the second letter of Peter warns strongly against "private interpretation" of Scripture, meaning that Scripture and Prophecy are interpreted inside the Church.

2 The LXX is especially important for the study of the Bible, as is the Latin Vulgate (which is the standard text for the purposes of the Church.) Available texts (that is to say, actual physical manuscripts that still exist) of the LXX are much, much older than any Hebrew manuscripts; also it was translated at a time where Hebrew was a living language, and, as it is pre-Christian, there is no question of the bias resulting from conflicting interpretations of Jews and Christians. The controversy over the interpretation of the word עַלְמָה, translated as παρθένος, "virgin," which some Hebrew scholars—mostly Jewish, or liberal/modernizing Christians who would deny the Virgin Birth, a cornerstone of the faith—maintain means only "young woman" without an implication of virginity. The translators of the LXX would be unlikely to make the mistake, especially as a virgin conceiving is such a striking statement, and would have no reason to do so in order to promote Christianity, unlike the Jewish and Modernist scholars who have an agenda to disparage it.

3 Books could be written about the symbolism of serpents in the Bible, both positive and negative. A serpent raised on a pole in the book of Numbers gives divine protection to the Israelites, Jesus instructs his disciples to be as "wise as serpents and [but] harmless as doves." But of course the term is also used to refer to Satan, the tempter and adversary.

4 Gnosticism is an incredibly broad term when used historically to describe historical groups with a very wide range of beliefs, but mostly of a syncretic character combining Christianity with neo-Platonic Greek philosophy, Eastern mystery cults, and Jewish mysticism, resulting in a strange brew of multiple male and female "emanations" of God (see again Shahak, loc. cit.), pyramids of different divinities with an inacessible and abstract divine entity at the top, and God relegated to a mere demiurge (a Platonic concept), a creator; sometimes, like in some Eastern religions (cf. Maya), reality is seen as an illusion to be overcome; but the overall concept of Gnosticism is salvation not by works, not by faith, but by γνωστικός, having "knowledge," but the concept is much deeper than that (see text.) Gnostics had very different ideas about sin than mainstream Christians. For Gnostics, their practical exercise of their faith ranged from extreme asceticism (abstinence from various types of food, sexual relations, and other worldly things) to extreme libertinism. Gnosticism survived well into the medieval era, where it was the subject of many inquisitions against heresies and even the bloody Albigensian Crusade, and afterwards; much modern New Age philosophy is just gnosticism repackaged and rebranded, and many New Age teachers specifically refer to gnosticism or explicitly claim the term.

5 This rough translation into contemporary language is my own, drawing upon several sources with reference Hebrew (MT) and Greek (LXX) text. I mix some dynamism with literal translation of Hebrew idiom, i.e. "die the death," discussed supra; my main English sources are the NASB and the HCSB.

6 Most of the following Scriptural quotations will be from the HCSB, NASB or occasionally the KJV.

7 καί, a conjunction which can, dependent on context, mean either.

8 Ghost = Spirit = רוח = πνεύμα; "Holy Ghost" is somewhat more traditional, but "Holy Spirit" is synonymous.
 
SKL, my understanding of Christianity is that the core beliefs are summarized in the Nicene Creed of 325 and then were made more specific in 381 particularly regarding the Resurrection. To be a Christian, you MUST believe in everything in the Creed, including a physical Resurrection and Ascension.

I don't believe in the Resurrection. It's one of the most difficult parts of Christian doctrine, but it is part of the core. I could cheat by trying to convince myself that He wasn't really dead but in a coma and woke up the way people sometimes wake up in coffins at their own funerals due to a mistake, or maybe His appearance was a ghost.

So, how did you or Christians in general, come to terms with the Resurrection?
 
Very interesting stuff SKL, I have a few points if you want to humor me. :)

The Church teaches that human nature is originally good, tainted only by the fall, which, by virtue of knowledge/acquaintance with both good and evil, lead to the possibility of concupiscence, which by itself isn't a sin, but a strongly inclination to

But how can you characterize it as being good without having the knowledge of good and evil? Wouldn't naivety be a more fitting description than goodness? I think the only meaningful way to 'be good' is to be so by choice. Isn't that a much higher standard, than not doing evil simply because you don't know of evil, and therefore what God would truly expect from us? Wouldn't this so called fall then be in fact a crucial and necessary step, albeit maybe a painful one, towards God's true goal? Likewise parents of young adults might cringe looking at the choices their kids make, but still understand that making your own choices is the only way to grow as a person.
If a state of childlike naivety is what God really deemed to be best for us, then he would have made sure that would never change. Otherwise we're at the old argument of "He is either not omnipotent or not benevolent", no?

God gave the Tree of Life to Adam and Eve; presumably, this would give they and their descendants and immortal and perfect existence in the Garden of Eden; but, of course, things didn't go down like that.

Is this your private speculation or widely assumed in catholic theology? I have watched parts of a lecture series on the Old Testament recently (the title is misleading though since it deals with these texts exclusively within the context of ancient Israel, not as part of the christian tradition). One point the lecturer made was that at times the text is subverting, maybe even making fun of, myths that were well known in the ancient near east. One of these is the widely held notion of a tree of life and the general idea that immortality is the highest goal humans could strive for. So the writers (or originally the orators) of these stories introducing the tree of life but then seemingly just forgetting about it, can be seen as purposefully setting themselves apart from their environment, playing with the listeners expectations of what a typical myth works like (obviosly happening at a time when these stories only started to get spread around). Maybe the tree of life not being important, is exactly the point they wanted to make, what do you think?

This probably opens a whole other can of worms, but what are your thoughts on the historical-critical method of studying the bible? Is it important what the ancient Israelites believed these texts to mean or is all that pointless because regardless of their understanding at that time, God "wrote" it through divine inspiration already with a christian reader in mind?

Biblical interpretation is called exegesis ("bringing forth"); reading one's own ideas into the Bible is called eisegesis ("bringing into,") which is never the right way to interpret Scripture.
[...]
not to mention that the whole concept of Bible interpretations being personal or subjective (even to a pastor preacher); not to mention, in Scripture itself, the second letter of Peter warns strongly against "private interpretation" of Scripture, meaning that Scripture and Prophecy are interpreted inside the Church.


Does this also refer to the idea of contextual theology? Because to me it seems quite obvious that every theology is a contextual theology, because no bible exegesis, no theology can be done in a vacuum. How could any human or group of humans (like the church) come up with an non-subjective interpretation? For that they would need to be able to step outside of their own cultural context, which is impossible. Liberation theology for example came from a situation in which the questions of poverty and oppression were of great importance and naturally that influenced the way they read the bible, nothing else would have made sense to them. But the point is they were aware that's what they were doing and didn't claim their interpretation was the only objectively correct one. Early missionaries on the other hand often didn't stop to think how much of their theology was coloured by colonialism, for them it seemed like the objective way to look at the world.
The only possibility I see, to argue that any humans or organizations interpretation is objectively correct, is to posit direct divine intervention, God effectively speaking through them. But that still doesn't let you of the hook, because there are quite a few people as well as organizations claiming that God is speaking through them. It is still you who has to decide which one to follow and all you have to go on is your own subjective view of things because that's all you can ever have.

I just find it hard to imagine, from how confidently you defend your own point of view, that you would just accept the party line, if the catholic church adopted a particular interpretation of scripture tomorrow that you believed to be wrong. Or is it rather that you can't imagine that to ever be the case?
 
Such a great post SKL :) I'm only halfway through but thanks for all the detail. Ill be asking some questions.
 
havent read your more recent posts yet but i doubt youve answered my questions. ;)

I would be interested to know more about your eschatological views. Do you reject futurism? I would assume you are not fond of dispensationalism but would be interested to hear your reply.

How do you feel about the current pope? and the second part of that same question would be how do you feel about the jesuits?

i cant help but feel that catholicism isn't entirely in line with what the Bible actually says. im sure youve dealt with such sentiments before. but in Rev there are passages that reference intertwining paganism with christianity. Can you see that the catholic church might be involved with this?

My personal feelings are that Catholicism has and always will be about using Christianity as a control mechanism. Control, IMO, is what a typical non-believer would bring up when discussing Christianity. and they would be correct in some aspects, while dismissing Christianity as being ultimately about freedom.

As ive mentioned before to you, i believe that there is direct link between satan and pedophilia. there is more than just a smidgen of evidence that the catholic church has been involved with pedophilia and child trafficking. i love me a conspiracy, but these are not unsubstantiated claims. combined with the symbolism in the vatican, a pope calling for a NWO, forgiveness of abortion, etc...there seems to be some weirdness going on with it as a protestant outsider. it seems to put men in the place of Jesus.

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Vicarius Filii Dei ;)

EDIT: After doing some research, I am not entirely sure that an eternal hell is Biblical. I kind of feel like this is a common misconception about Christianity that has been spread much like futurism has. I think this can play into the fear aspect of religion which seems to conveniently play into the control aspect I mentioned earlier.
 
Last edited:
I guess im going to have to fly to manhattan to have a chat with you about your false religion thats run by crypto jews. its not too late to repent. its not about protestantism vs catholicism and differing ideologies. catholic leadership is the synagogue of satan. i think you have the ability to see that considering your pope is the new leader of the far left which is beyond ironic.
 
in terms of longer responses, I owe them to this thread and will get there

"Vicarius Filii Dei" is actually not an official papal title and 666 = Hebrew/Aramaic for "neron chaiser" = Nero Caeser, which will also give you an idea of my approach to the Apocalypse of St John, I am more or less inclined to partial preterism as is most Catholic teaching although the approach to the exegesis of the Apocalypse (traditionally Catholics call the book "Apocalypse/Apoc." not "Revelation/Rev." which is the more literal incipit) is not so much officially defined or even focused on by the Church as it is in many Protestant sects; the "Vicarius..." = 666 is mostly an SDA thing ...

but anyway, certainly I find some things about the current Pope to be troubling, but also, a lot of the things that he's said, e.g. about homosexuality ("what do I care?"), have been treated rather inaccurately by the media and his economic ideas which are interpreted as modern-day leftism are actually in line with Catholic social teaching of 100+ years (cf. Rerum Novarum and others, and the spirit of the Church's attitude towards the poor, following after Christ's, of course, throughout history)

but the Church can and has survived less than great Popes. we've had bad popes and questionable popes and morally wicked popes and political popes (especially when the pope was not only the Pope but also the prince of an Italian city-state) but always they have been guided by the Holy Spirit in terms of their solemn government of the Church in spiritual matters. I loved the now-emeritus Benedict XVI and converted during his papacy; his resignation was to say the least rather traumatic; Francis PP is well-loved and has many great facets including a great humility and love for the poor. the Jesuits in general, and not only the Jesuits in terms of special movements and orders inside the Church, have been theologically, politically and otherwise controversial and/or problematic from time to time but he does not adopt the more problematic things very common in the SJ of the 20th century; the really central issue right now controverted in the Church with regards to Francis vs tradition is about divorce and is extremely nuanced and complicated about pastoral care and the administration of communion, etc.

as I've said repeatedly here, the Pope has the charism of infallibility only in pronunciations made solemnly ex cathedra; not everything he says or does is necessarily right, morally or theologically; Popes have even at times arguably gone into heresy (cf. the rather complicated situation of Liberius PP and St Athanasius around Arianism), which is not to say that the current one has, but not ex cathedra and they, and the Church, has always repented of this; Francis PP has not given any pronouncements ex cathedra that are unorthodox although he is dealing inliturgical and pastoral practices sometimes troubling to the traditionalist mind. a lot of what went in Vatican II, obviously, is troubling, but going back to the actual texts versus what actually went on in many churches especially in America there is a stark contrast.

we must trust, though, in Holy Mother Church, to sort this out, as she has over 2,000 years. the modern world and the mass media do the Church often grave injustice so it is very important to study and understand and to have priests who do so and who can provide proper spiritual guidance and teaching.

a great blog, which touches, and particularly during particular moments of controversy, often about issues to do with modernism, traditionalism, the two most recent Popes, etc. but above all about spirituality and liturgy is "Father Z" at http://wdtprs.com he can obviously articulate many things better and with more authority than I.

there are groups within the Church who reject recent Popes. I am not among them. there is the SSPX which rejects much of Vatican II, but is in communion but in irregular status with the Church (it's complicated and I wouldn't dare to try to sum it up here) and there are even "sedevecantist" (literally, empty-seat-ist) groups as I said who believe that all popes after VatII are invalid, they often break up and ironically in their splitting off resemble Protestants; the great changes after VatII are very complicated and still resonating in the Church today. the Catholic part of my family, many of them just stopped going to Mass after it was changed, very sad. the idea was to renew the Church, but the pews emptied, instead, while more people flock to more traditional avenues more and more often, many of the most thriving congregations and groups are traditionally-minded, whereas the, e.g., groups of heretical modernist nuns are literally dying off and find no young women as postulates.

the Church is indeed in turmoil. it has happened many times before; there have even been times when there have been multiple claimants to be Pope, the removal of the Pope from Rome, there was the division of what's now called Eastern Orthodoxy, a schism yet to be healed, schisms now healed, and of course the great Protestant schism, producing an entirely different Christian religion with hundreds of thousands or millions of "popes"; there's been the "Babylonian Captivity of the Church" (Luther used this phrase but it has a different meaning in orthodox Catholicism) in Avignon ...

the Church is complicated. like life and history and the world. the Church is not otherworldly, it is made up of people. the hierarchy is not made up of perfect men. sometimes chaos waxes and wanes and it's difficult to know spiritually what's happening. but the Church remains the Church, after 2,000 years.
 
What are your thoughts on the Eastern Orthodox Church and why did you convert to Roman Catholic over Eastern Orthodox? My insight into both is fairly limited (I was raised Roman Catholic until the age of 10 or so, and I have family members who converted to Eastern Orthodox as adults and with whom I discuss religious matters occasionally).

I'm not sure where I fall on most of the complicated theological and historical disputes, but I will say that the Eastern Orthodox Church seems, to me, to have have done a better job at producing, and to still be producing, individuals of genuine spiritual insight, to the extent that even though I am far from Christian I can appreciate much of the works of an individual like Saint Paisios, which contain a lot of principles which seem very much universal. The fact that the Eastern Orthodox Church is still producing such individuals in this era makes it all the more remarkable.

By comparison, I struggle to see anything coming out of the Roman Catholic Church which makes me think that the institution is actually inducing spiritual development or fulfillment of any kind in it's membership - it all feels highly intellectualized and politicized, even secularized to a great degree. A good comparison I think is that of Saint Paisios to Saint Theresa. Despite them both having been awarded the status of Sainthood and arguably being the penultimate examples of their respective denominations in the 20th century, I, a non-Christian, can read Paisios' work and appreciate the guidance contained within it, and find much in there which is common with other spiritual traditions around the world.

By comparison, Saint Theresa does not appear to be someone who developed any real degree of spiritual insight (at least in my admittedly un-expert view), who was primarily concerned with the "real world" work of the Church (that is, she didn't do anything that hasn't been done by plenty of secular charities), and in fact is generally understood to have wavered in her faith considerably in her adult life. Putting the metaphysics aside, I can look at Paisios and say "yeah, I can see why they decided to canonize him." By contrast, the move to canonize Theresa seems like it was largely political.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack Theresa specifically, or the Roman Catholic Church through her (I didn't intend for my post to go down that road at all but it's a comparison which comes to mind whenever I think of the issue), but it seems to me that she's somewhat emblematic of the general state of the modern Roman Catholic Church - disconnected from any conception of the divine, devoid of spiritual insight, overly focused on intellectual or worldly & political pursuits, constantly embroiled in controversy (although of course the Orthodox Church has it's own far share of controversy as well). I'm curious about what your perspective, as a believer, is on these issues.
 
Per my posting in CE&P, that you suggested I ask here, so you can shed your light on it.

From Matthew 15-

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Is Jesus showing his priority was to the Jews (or, who are the Lost sheep of Israel)? Or is this purely a teaching moment for his apostles, and testing her faith? If these are the case, are his words, calling her a "dog", nullified?

I will let you explain how you will- I don't expect my exact question(s) to be answered (I also don't want to detract with it/burden your answering unnecessarily with it), but please feel free to explain it how you know/understand.

Thank you.
 
SKL, I've always enjoyed your posts in PD and I had always wondered your reasoning for choosing Catholicism so I was excited when I stumbled upon this thread today.


My parents are very devout Catholics (though I suspect they have loosened up a bit as the years have passed) and Catholicism had its imprint all over my childhood. I was homeschooled though much of my adolescence if that says anything. Hell, we used to drive 2 hours both ways to Sunday mass because they didn't find any of the priests in our city orthodox enough. I don't remember the exact age when I began to question the religion but I started refusing to go to church at some point in high school. Having two younger siblings, this among other things extremely strained my relationship with my parents. Although we are on better terms these days, it still saddens me that I'm not closer to my parents and I find it frustrating that this is mostly due to their religious beliefs.


I think that spirituality is an essential and extremely personal part of the human experience. In contrast, for all intents and purposes religion is a corruption of this IMO. I don't believe that everything in our universe is quantifiable and I think it naive to hold otherwise. To me, this is where spirituality comes in. Others in this thread have stated that life has whatever meaning you give it and I think this holds true here.


Your body is a machine blindly designed to replicate itself, so of course fear of death should be natural (or else it would not be a very good machine!). Take a step back though and truly contemplate eternal life from your current reference point, in some ways it seems almost a curse. Now consider this was your only existence, then wouldn't you try to make your mark and enjoy it as much as possible? To me, that's almost liberating.
The way I see it, religion is the ultimate lottery. I always hear religious people ask, "what do you have to lose by believing"? By basing my entire given existence on a completely and utterly faith-based religion's afterlife (not even considering the countless logical fallacies for each one as others have already mentioned), my answer would be: "Everything!"


SKL, I do have a couple questions for you.


1. If God does have a plan for each and every person, how does free-will fit into this equation? If my children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. are already accounted for, then it seems when and with who I reproduce (and consequently almost every other aspect of my existence) is predetermined.


2. How do you feel about the compelling evidence for natural selection? Fossil records correlate perfectly across strata and natural selection has even been observed on the timescales we experience in our day to day lives. Natural selection offers the only logical, plausible, but most of all satisfying explanation for why we are here today - given the initial physics of the universe.
 
Hi SKL, could you respond to my questions quoted below? They were on the 1st page of the thread but never got answered I don't think. Cheers! :)

Would you ever consider branching beyond the Catholic faith? I don't mean rejecting it altogether, but investigating other faiths and seeing if you can find any similarities or correlations which could go towards you making your own moral code? I think the church does play an important role in bringing people together and binding communities, so obviously if you left the faith to stand alone you might potentially lose that social belonging.

Also you gave some background here on yourself, and I got impressions from your posts in other threads.. have you had an emotional or salvation type experience prior to just joining, or since you've joined the Catholic faith? You said you had some bad habits and they've been lifted from you.. was this a tangible experience for you, as I've heard about people praying or sincerely throwing themselves down to Jesus or another faith and having all their burdens instantly lifted, resulting in great emotional rapture. Just curious if, given your background, you've had that experience.

How do you feel towards Protestantism? The perspective usually comes from the other direction, and I don't know any Catholics personally so I've never had the chance to ask someone about how they feel. In what way have they diverged from what they should be doing or thinking etc?
 
do you still use drugs? what kind? do you feel guilty about it from a religious standpoint?
 
Why does Christ perform Miracles and yet the Bible speaks against magic and magical remedies. What is the difference as you understand it?
 
Christ understands the laws of physics.
 
The type of church history we should emulate is that before edict of Milan and the Pentecost in the book of acts. To sum up my beliefs I'm a nondenominational Hebrew roots follower of Yeshua Messiah.
 
havent read your more recent posts yet but i doubt youve answered my questions. ;)

I would be interested to know more about your eschatological views. Do you reject futurism? I would assume you are not fond of dispensationalism but would be interested to hear your reply.

How do you feel about the current pope? and the second part of that same question would be how do you feel about the jesuits?

i cant help but feel that catholicism isn't entirely in line with what the Bible actually says. im sure youve dealt with such sentiments before. but in Rev there are passages that reference intertwining paganism with christianity. Can you see that the catholic church might be involved with this?

My personal feelings are that Catholicism has and always will be about using Christianity as a control mechanism. Control, IMO, is what a typical non-believer would bring up when discussing Christianity. and they would be correct in some aspects, while dismissing Christianity as being ultimately about freedom.

As ive mentioned before to you, i believe that there is direct link between satan and pedophilia. there is more than just a smidgen of evidence that the catholic church has been involved with pedophilia and child trafficking. i love me a conspiracy, but these are not unsubstantiated claims. combined with the symbolism in the vatican, a pope calling for a NWO, forgiveness of abortion, etc...there seems to be some weirdness going on with it as a protestant outsider. it seems to put men in the place of Jesus.




Vicarius Filii Dei ;)

EDIT: After doing some research, I am not entirely sure that an eternal hell is Biblical. I kind of feel like this is a common misconception about Christianity that has been spread much like futurism has. I think this can play into the fear aspect of religion which seems to conveniently play into the control aspect I mentioned earlier.
Question on futurism and stuff, I think the book of revelation both is the prophesy of what was to happen to roman paganism and the fall of Rome in general. But the way I feel the Bible works is like a computer, we input data into it and it gives us as much truth as the Holy Spirit see's fit. So I believe history is cyclical, in a Hindu esq sense.
The current pope is an anti pope. Meaning that one moral man or women is the leader/ elder of the Body of the messiah on Earth. Not that I'm dissing our pope at all, I'm just saying the traditions of electing the pope not the law of god dictates the process. All of the feast holiday's used to be other feast days of Roman gods, to ease christians did not persecute they kept the same feast days.
On Hell, the burning and suffering and torture people tend to think about hell is not in the Bible. The lake of fire is for Satan and fallen angels. death is what it is, soul destruction.
 
This is the most expressive and revealing internet forum topic Ive ever come across. I am not prepared, nor will I ever be to ask the questions I may have, or to argue with anyone on these matters. I find that this thread has been for the most part extremely diplomatic, which goes to show some amount of respect that is rare.

A lot of heavy stuff was laid down in here, after reading through most of it, I can say I've learned quite a bit and i really enjoyed all the Q and A's. Humans are weird, SKL is brave for stepping up to the plate and religious buildings are insanely ornate. Thats all I have to say. Godbless!

PS- the part that talks about Jesus hanging around prostitutes/ tax collectors was quite comical.
 
Lol, first they take the native religion from the indigenous people (of central Europe [where many Americans originate from, if you are American] in this case), people get miserable because they slowly are loosing their own spiritual roots and traditions and choose wrong paths, that lead to a miserable life, then ~2000 years later those people are thankful to the oppressors for helping them getting out of the purposefully injected misery. Classic.
 
Lol, first they take the native religion from the indigenous people (of central Europe [where many Americans originate from, if you are American] in this case), people get miserable because they slowly are loosing their own spiritual roots and traditions and choose wrong paths, that lead to a miserable life, then ~2000 years later those people are thankful to the oppressors for helping them getting out of the purposefully injected misery. Classic.
Which is why we need YHVH to free us from our slavery to sin and money and church main main doctrine
 
Top