I converted to Catholicism after many years deep in the drug culture, AMA

[Nixiam]

^^ Quite an interesting idea. Goes along with interconnection of the universe (see Existiential Frustration). I like Saturdays, I get to lay in bed and read through the forum.

EDIT: Consider taking a peek at the Free Will vs Determinism thread

 

[sigmond]

Do Catholics believe in intelligent design? I read Darwin had to encounter indigenous/aboriginal people before he 'lost his faith'- lucky guy - all I have to do is take a ride on the subway...

 

[belligerent drunk]

The problem with free will is, it isn't truly free will if it's predetermined. If YOU know what someone will do, their action might not necessarily be predetermined. But if an all knowing god knows what you are about to do, then your action is predetermined and renders your illusionary decision pointless. I think that's more or less what he meant.

Well that's the problem with religions. They were formed way before humankind was able to at least somewhat scientifically approach such matters. Just by making the assumption, for which there is some evidence and zero evidence against it, that we're just complex chemical (thus physical) systems, that alone automatically makes all religions null and obsolete. Either god is a moron and forgot which way he created his universe, or he's just fucking around with us. Maybe his line of reasoning was to "come down" to Earth, perform a bunch of noticeable stuff that would hopefully implant into the memories of the peasants living at the time, so they'd... do what...? Nothing makes sense in this scenario whatever you want to come up with.

And then it also begs the question, is god a damn terrible scientist? Ok, say he created the universe. We now know how immensely large it is and for how long it's existed. Say, we're among the first life-forms that have developed during our universe's lifetime, perhaps the first intelligent life. So, god, instead of observing such an interesting phenomenon that happened after many billions of years of "waiting", starts playing with the newly formed intelligent life, aka humans. Instead of observing the natural course of action, decides to do a bunch of shit that messes everything up for the people living here. Sounds like a little impatient kiddo is at the wheel of this whole thing.

 

[swilow]

I proposed earlier that the Christian god seems evil.

Anyway. If a god did create the universe, why must we worship it? Why would god require the contents of its creation to worship It? Did god create us to worship it? If we fail to do this, is that not truly god's failure? Why does god blame us for his flaws? If the truth is that I have freedom to do what I will, I would suggest that god has traded in his omnipotence...

I find this this topic interesting due to being raised as a Catholic. However, I find discussing the Christian god, as a real thing, to border on the absurd. Christian theology has a lack of internal logic that is greater than mere semantics.

Applying logic to this topic is perhaps unfair.

 

[turkalurk]

Just woke up and saw this. Unsure how much I will post today (probably not much) given work obligations but I was kind of struck by the implication that I am so fragile or your arguments are so strong that a dialogue would "rain on my parade."

You have to keep in mind, to someone on the outside, its like talking to a child about the tooth fairy. On one hand, the older the kid gets the more you wonder when he is gonna see how ridiculous it is to still believe in something so illogical. But, at the same time, you don't actually want to steal the security blanket out from under him. However, if logic is something that would convince and compel you, you wouldn't believe all that nonsensical bull in the first place. So, he need not worry with you, denial and delusion already have their hold on you because I can only assume you need your religion to forgive all your treacherous sins. Thats usually why christians cling so strongly. they feel forgiven and thats a powerful thing for thing for those who need it. They feel despite all their fucking up, that they will be granted salvation if only the believe.

guess they never heard the parable of the goats and the sheep:
Matthew 25:31-46New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[turkalurk]

I should say that I was raised a catholic and attended catholic grade school. I think on paper I am still a catholic, and in the traditional sense I still think of myself as Irish Catholic. Most the catholic people I know don't believe much of whats in the Bible, we are only catholic at weddings and funerals and during holidays. Its mostly just a family tradition. I'm often a Paul bearer. I will even eat the bread and drink the wine. My family knows where I stand, I am not shy about it. But, they are grateful I put my family's feelings ahead of my independent ego and just share in the tradition with them.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

The point of being religious is to reconnect: With other people, with the rest of existence, and with the source of all existence. It's to overcome the pain of being a separate individual, an island in a vast ocean that doesn't seem to care. Religion serves (and has served) many other functions for people, but this goal takes priority above all others. Keep this in mind when assessing anyone's motivations for religious belief or practice. Not everyone feels this yearning. But many do, and many always will.

My main qualm with Catholic Church is that I question whether it has the flexibility to allow for radical reinterpretations of ancient texts, in light of what we know now that we didn't know then. People will always try to grasp at an understanding of the unknown based on what is known to them. As we learn more and try more things, our crude metaphors for grasping at the great cosmic mysteries evolve accordingly. If we're far past the point as a society where we can reconcile the portrayal of a loving God as an authoritarian chieftain, then the institutions which enshrine these stories need to be open to this level of honesty, rather than clinging to the past.

The problem that many ancient institutions fall prey to, is pandering to market for certainty. The legacy, reams of law and commentary, and complex hierarchical authority chains typical of ancient institutions of all stripes, lend an air of absolute certainty, about matters which elude certainty. True faith is not being certain, it's being comfortable with being uncertain.

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Great post. It's one of my qualms with religions also. In my mind, one must never assume the status quo is absolutely correct and never open one's mind to the possibility of change, or greater understanding. Particularly when something is thousands of years old, especially in light of the vastly greater knowledge of the universe that we now have. Humans wrote the bible, in many different parts with many different people in many different times. It's unavoidable that people wouldn't have put their own worldview and understandings into those texts. Everything is always changing, and we should be able to understand and roll with that.

 

[swilow]

I dunno, I think the 'point' of religion is not so spiritual. Surely rote recitation ala Catholic mass partially subsumes deeper meaning. As a child, the Lord's prayer was just a sequence of sounds to me. I never examined or was lead to examine the actual meaning. Mass was boring. Where is the connection to the non-material? I can't see it in grandiose, opulent cathedrals. Almost the opposite.

 

[sigmond]

I dunno, I think the 'point' of religion is not so spiritual. Surely rote recitation ala Catholic mass partially subsumes deeper meaning. As a child, the Lord's prayer was just a sequence of sounds to me. I never examined or was lead to examine the actual meaning. Mass was boring. Where is the connection to the non-material? I can't see it in grandiose, opulent cathedrals. Almost the opposite.

The cathedrals are one aspect of Catholicism which I find endearing, enchanting, some of them-mesmerizing. I believe the point is to honor God.

(I'll elaborate on this post later - having trouble thinking at the moment.)

 

[swilow]

To me, its contradictory to speak of charity for the impoverished in such opulence. I dont feel that it honours god as much as human creativity. But, it is hypocritical for the Catholic church to preach poverty in that environ. Why would poor use of resources honour anyone?

A church outside in a forest honours the divine better Imo.

 

[sigmond]

To me, its contradictory to speak of charity for the impoverished in such opulence. I dont feel that it honours god as much as human creativity. But, it is hypocritical for the Catholic church to preach poverty in that environ. Why would poor use of resources honour anyone?

A church outside in a forest honours the divine better Imo.

yea, you're correct, it gets even more ridiculous when you consider how many churches and miscellaneous properties owned by the Vatican which are not even being used and are slowly wasting away. Might be worth mentioning in a lot of places poor, homeless folks are not even allowed to sleep outside on the ground.

All that aside..

(have to finish later again..)

 

[Kittycat5]

I dunno, I think the 'point' of religion is not so spiritual. Surely rote recitation ala Catholic mass partially subsumes deeper meaning. As a child, the Lord's prayer was just a sequence of sounds to me. I never examined or was lead to examine the actual meaning. Mass was boring. Where is the connection to the non-material? I can't see it in grandiose, opulent cathedrals. Almost the opposite.

I agree wholeheartedly with this and mentioned it previously. And I do not believe religion's purpose is to reconnect. I believe salvation is its reason for being and the various doctrines are how to achieve it. There are plenty and often better ways to reconnect with people and existence. Religion can accomplish this reconnection but I find it a bit more devious as many are born into religion, taught its concepts at an early age or even forced into it. Because of this early indoctrination, many lack the ability to question their religion or more broadly feel no need to think critically, can cause heavy guilt when one acts on their natural instinct or desires, and cause real emotional and psychological harm when someone does finally starts questioning the validity of their faith.

I feel this leads to entire masses of people who simply go through the motions of religion to avoid the problems that arise from ceasing to be religious which makes a mockery of the religion to which they belong. And Catholicism leads the pack.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

And I do not believe religion's purpose is to reconnect. I believe salvation is its reason for being and the various doctrines are how to achieve it.

Semantics. What is it that people want to be saved from when they take refuge in a religion? From an existence where they feel very alone, left to toil and hurt for a lifetime, for no apparent lasting good. But any hardship becomes bearable when it's for a higher purpose, as part of a greater plan. Being religious is putting one's hope in someone else's idea or vision of what this higher purpose might be.

I agree that religious institutions which are no longer very good at bringing people together under a common vision of a cosmic purpose, should either be overhauled or allowed to fade into history. And let new ones grow to take their place. Because I think it is wholly unreasonable to expect any given person to forsake any and all notion their their life is part of some greater cosmic plan.

 

[swilow]

Salvation from? According to Catholics, god created us. He created our natures. Do we then need to worship god to save us from the flaws of our nature that God himself created? That circular logic totally dismantles gods benevolence and makes him appear evil to me. Creating something to punish is malevolent.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Salvation from? According to Catholics, god created us. He created our natures. Do we then need to worship god to save us from the flaws of our nature that God himself created? That circular logic totally dismantles gods benevolence and makes him appear evil to me. Creating something to punish is malevolent.

You're terribly correct and it is appalling how few people manage to realize the absurdity of religion.

To MDAO: do you not think that it is childish to want to believe in a fairytale in order to feel better about yourself? Like a child believing in Santa Claus who is all excited as Christmas comes around. Make no mistake, believing in religion most definitely requires the shutdown of the bigger part of one's mental faculties, those responsible for rational and critical thinking, but most importantly those responsible for evidence-based thinking. It is astonishing how certain people can believe in religious teachings and do science, use products of science (read: everything in our everyday life) etc like it is not utterly fucking crazy!? It's like an astrophysicist who believes in flat Earth and a geocentrical universe. Is it not bloody nonsense?

I think it is cowardly and, as said before, childish to resort to comforting fairytales to come to grips with life. Why not face up to life for what it is based on our best available evidence and knowledge? Why sit around like a child, sucking on a dummy of ignorance, hoping and waiting for Mommy (god in this context) to make everything right for you? Why not take responsibility for your own life and accept that the only thing we have is NOW, THIS life. That we should be savoring the moment and enjoying it to the fullest, while making sure that our successors will also have a chance to enjoy and live a good life (e.g not mess Earth up so that coming generations have to clean up after us).

Life is beautiful, and I dare say more beautiful, without myths made by illiterate peasants some few thousands years back. Remember, they are the product of limited imagination of people who knew less about the universe than a modern 2nd grader does. It does not compare to the real beauty of our universe, which is something human mind can barely begin to understand let alone fully imagine.

 

[tokezu]

My main qualm with Catholic Church is that I question whether it has the flexibility to allow for radical reinterpretations of ancient texts, in light of what we know now that we didn't know then. People will always try to grasp at an understanding of the unknown based on what is known to them.

In my mind, one must never assume the status quo is absolutely correct and never open one's mind to the possibility of change, or greater understanding.

Absolutely! The bible is first and foremost a historical source and as such open to interpretation. Of course every interpretation is flawed on some level, we all know (hopefully) about the power of confirmation bias and stuff like that, so we should be humble and not act like we are representing the pinnacle of human knowledge. But at the same time we have to remind ourselves how much less knowledge people in the past had.
This is what I just don't get about SKL's approach to tradition and bible exegesis, because it seems that he does reserve the right for himself to do his own exegesis. In my eyes there are only two choices, either the "democracy of the dead" prevails, which renders all further bible exegesis useless because you are simply not allowed to come up with a new interpretation. Or the right to interpret on your own prevails, which in the end means you can pick and choose the traditions that you like and drop the ones you don't like, leading to the protestant idea of "Everybody is their own pope." You can't really have both, can you?

Life is beautiful, and I dare say more beautiful, without myths made by illiterate peasants some few thousands years back. Remember, they are the product of limited imagination of people who knew less about the universe than a modern 2nd grader does. It does not compare to the real beauty of our universe, which is something human mind can barely begin to understand let alone fully imagine.

This is exactly how I feel.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

To MDAO: do you not think that it is childish to want to believe in a fairytale in order to feel better about yourself?

I do not see it as any sort of failing to being open to the idea that one's life here on earth is part of some greater cosmic plan, if that's what you mean.

 

[Ninae]

The funny thing about this is for a while I was seeing a Pakistani/Muslim guy. And he was, well, a believer (not in a crazy way).

So one time I asked him if he was a good Muslim and he said "I don't know, are you a good Christian?" And I just had to laugh because there are no good Christians. Or hardly. And we have practically abandoned religion in our part of the world.

 

[sigmond]

hey - if im not on your ignore list - any interest in reviving this thread? i'd actually like to join the church but i'm afraid people will think im up to something nefarious.

What sins are unforgivable? I never robbed, raped, or killed anyone, nor do i have any desire to do so. am i good?