psychedelic enlightenment my experience

[psy997]

I disagree Murphy - I think buddhism is, like all religions, a delusion. That's why they always promise you jam tomorrow - "You need to meditate for 60 years before you become enlightened". I think psychedelics are vastly superior to Buddhism in every way imaginable. If you want to tell yourself you're "on the path" while sweeping the ashram for 60 years then that's up to you. I think religions are completely and utterly meaningless. Psychedelics are their own path - you don't need to read any bullshit fantasies created by people you never met thousands of years ago, it's simply you and the psychedelic. Nothing else. That's frightening to most people which is why they feel the need to "follow" a religion in order to get the reassurance that thousands of other people are doing it too - so that must make it good.

But that's exactly it. Buddhism isn't like that, in it's pure form. There's no promise of "jam tomorrow"; there's a teaching, a knowledge, of how to attain non-suffering. It's your choice whether you listen and apply it. Of course it's going to take time.

If you truly think psychedelics are better than a life enriched with mindfulness and meditation, I feel deeply sorry for you. As I see it, Buddhism can be boiled down to being in the moment, thus aware, mindful of your mindstate and surrounding (set and setting), and using meditation as a tool to train the mind to reach those states easier and easier.

 

[pupnik]

I think it's all attitude.

a psychedelic intensifies your impressions and also your expressions, and the feedback from those combined is your reinforcement experience.

so those that put forth a transformative or transcendental eyebrow lift are inclined to encounter some charming one-ness, while those that are most attracted to sensuality or complexity will be immersed in that.

an attitude of equanimity with psychedelic enchantment can easily ramify into blissfulness and "enlightenment" but this does not come automatically; it is the result of a practice - or habit; one that sticks even when inebriated - not coming from the inebriating substance but put forth by the person's cultivated nature.

 

[Doldrugs]

That's not enlightenment is it - you get muslims blowing themselves up every day who've let go of everything in life.

If you think these are equivalent you really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you should probably read up on meditation. One has acquired the spectacular ability to sit motionless and silent as he burns to death. Another is just pushing a button. Spirituality aside, the former is demonstrating a useful psychological ability. One with science behind it.

I don't. I believe they put you in the psychedelic state. Would you really go up to someone who'd only ever meditated and say "Here you are mate, drop this 500 mics of acid, you'll know what it's like cos you've meditated".

Before I tried psychedelics, I had meditated and currently practiced mindfulness. I was surprised by how similar a mushroom trip was to both. Having never meditated, my girlfriend didn't understand it until she tripped. It's not a shortcut, but I think it can be a useful tool along the same lines. What is your experience with meditation?

 

[murphythecat]

couldnt say it better. and youv described it accurately.

mindfulness is the way to happiness and the main teaching of psychedelic for me. IT shows you so much that being mindful is much more important then anything else. buddhism is just like psychadelic for me. not necessarly the visions, but it shows you that you need to better yourself, to be more happy, more here in the now, less stressed, ect.

buddhism is is a way to understand your mind. no delusion here, id say the total opposite, its gaining wisdom, training your mind, learning your mind, to stop being so concerned about what the world can give you, and seek inside for happiness.

But that's exactly it. Buddhism isn't like that, in it's pure form. There's no promise of "jam tomorrow"; there's a teaching, a knowledge, of how to attain non-suffering. It's your choice whether you listen and apply it. Of course it's going to take time.

If you truly think psychedelics are better than a life enriched with mindfulness and meditation, I feel deeply sorry for you. As I see it, Buddhism can be boiled down to being in the moment, thus aware, mindful of your mindstate and surrounding (set and setting), and using meditation as a tool to train the mind to reach those states easier and easier.

 

[murphythecat]

I meditate 2 hours per day, at teh same time every day. Ive been doing it for 3 month now. Im able to gain access concentration for 6 to 10 seconds, multiple time each sessions!

very hard at first, its become more and more easy, more and more beneficial in my life. Im thinking to eventually become a monk actually .

we will see

If you think these are equivalent you really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you should probably read up on meditation. One has acquired the spectacular ability to sit motionless and silent as he burns to death. Another is just pushing a button. Spirituality aside, the former is demonstrating a useful psychological ability. One with science behind it.



Before I tried psychedelics, I had meditated and currently practiced mindfulness. I was surprised by how similar a mushroom trip was to both. Having never meditated, my girlfriend didn't understand it until she tripped. It's not a shortcut, but I think it can be a useful tool along the same lines. What is your experience with meditation?

 

[max_freakout]

Psychedelic enlightenment is very straightforward and commonplace with use of psychedelic drugs, it involves a permanent change in the fundamental structure of thinking after a powerful 'breakthrough' trip experience. Psychedelic forums are full of firsthand descriptions of the process of mental 'illumination', - where people describe how psychedelic tripping "changed the way they think" or caused some profound personal transformation, such as regenerative healing, or dying and being reborn.

Beware of unenlightened definitions of what enlightenment is all about, that place enlightenment on an absurdly high pedestal that make it out of reach. Enlightenment follows very naturally from psychedelic drug use, and ordinary life carries on after the enlightenment (mind-transforming) trip experience, as in the Zen saying: "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water".

Enlightenment doesnt mean disappearing forever into the infinite white light, as some people would have you believe. The transformative trip is only temporary, the drugs are eventually metabolised and the ordinary state of consciousness is resumed. But people say that tripping changes them permanently because they can still remember these remarkable, magical experiences.

 

[Ismene]

But that's exactly it. Buddhism isn't like that, in it's pure form. There's no promise of "jam tomorrow"; there's a teaching, a knowledge, of how to attain non-suffering. It's your choice whether you listen and apply it. Of course it's going to take time.

If you truly think psychedelics are better than a life enriched with mindfulness and meditation, I feel deeply sorry for you. As I see it, Buddhism can be boiled down to being in the moment, thus aware, mindful of your mindstate and surrounding (set and setting), and using meditation as a tool to train the mind to reach those states easier and easier.

The trouble is like all religions Buddhism is so vague it can be interpreted in anyone of a thousand ways. You choose to interpret in a way that makes sense with all your other western views. The Tibetan monks who studied Buddhism and meditated for 700 years in Tibet created one of the most brutal slave-master feudal states mankind has ever known. They'dve called what they were doing Buddhism too.

If you think these are equivalent you really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you should probably read up on meditation. One has acquired the spectacular ability to sit motionless and silent as he burns to death. Another is just pushing a button. Spirituality aside, the former is demonstrating a useful psychological ability. One with science behind it.

How do you know what's going through a burning monks mind? For a start they do it for political reasons - not spiritual reasons. They're doing it to create a political effect. Just like the muslims driving the plane into the world trade center sat still and calm as they ploughed straight into it. Don't confuse burning yourself in public with a spiritual act.

And one more thing - don't Buddhists believe in reincarnation? So did this monk believe he might reach nirvana this time if he went out in flames? Was that why he was so calm? Because the guy was thinking "I'll be in nirvana soon if a burn a bit longer".

 

[swilow]

Don't confuse burning yourself in public with a spiritual act.

What is scary is the ease with which humans can confuse such a thing. At times, there is not much difference between brutal violence and organised spirituality. But that's a different thing to what we discuss in the context of psychedelics. We tend to reference terminology of the major religions because these organisations have spent thousands of years trying to define non-ordinary states of mind, and has thus built up a good linguistic framework. Using terms derived from known organised religions doesn't actually mean we are talking about practising these religions. Enlightenment is a good term for the apparent end-goal of some psychedelic drugs takers, despite its associations with Buddhism or Hinduism or whathaveyou.

 

[Ismene]

buddhism is is a way to understand your mind. no delusion here, id say the total opposite, its gaining wisdom, training your mind, learning your mind, to stop being so concerned about what the world can give you, and seek inside for happiness.

There's a lot more to Buddhism than mindfulness tho isn't there. You can't just interchange the terms "mindfulness" and "buddhism". What about all that shite about reincarnation? Do you just discard the bits of buddhism that don't appeal to the western viewpoint? The Dali Lama is a "buddhist" and yet he thinks it's his right to become King of Tibet - surely you wouldn't think proclaiming yourself King of thousands of people is very "buddhist"? What about the japanese zen buddhists who trained the kamikaze pilots? They believed the emperor of Japan to be a "fully enlightened being" and since zen "treats life and death indifferently" why not fly yourself into the enemys ship?

As Christopher Hitchens put it:

A faith that despises the mind and the free individual, that preaches submission and resignation, and that regards life as a poor and transient thing, is ill-equipped for self-criticism. Those who become bored by conventional "Bible" religions, and seek "enlightenment" by way of the dissolution of their own critical faculties into nirvana in any form, had better take a warning. They may think they are leaving the realm of despised materialism, but they are still being asked to put their reason to sleep, and to discard their minds along with their sandals.

 

[Ismene]

What is scary is the ease with which humans can confuse such a thing. At times, there is not much difference between brutal violence and organised spirituality. But that's a different thing to what we discuss in the context of psychedelics. We tend to reference terminology of the major religions because these organisations have spent thousands of years trying to define non-ordinary states of mind, and has thus built up a good linguistic framework. Using terms derived from known organised religions doesn't actually mean we are talking about practising these religions. Enlightenment is a good term for the apparent end-goal of some psychedelic drugs takers, despite its associations with Buddhism or Hinduism or whathaveyou.

That is a good point that tends to get lost - you often get the George Harrison kind of viewpoint that goes something like "Drugs are good but to do it for real you've got to drop the drugs and be a Hindu" (of course you make sure you never mention the deranged racist bits of Hinduism like the untouchables)

I suppose the limited language available to describe psychedelics mean you have to start reaching for religious terms.

 

[Doldrugs]

If you were on fire you'd be screaming and running around. This guy sat calmly through it to the end. You honestly don't see the day to day value of being able to act independent of your emotional and physical impulses? It's clear you have no experience with or understanding of meditation and mindfulness, so before you continue to make broad statements about them you might want to look into it just a little bit.

The other major problem here is you're equating the word enlightenment (a word with many meanings) with the whole of the Buddhist religion and all its history. Buddhism is an ancient, complex, contradictory series of systems and cultures, and its history is colored by human flaws, like all things. Different people in this thread are talking about different things when they say enlightenment. Pointing out that some Buddhists were bad people has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the psychological ability that can be nurtured by meditation, mindfulness, and psychedelic use.

 

[Ismene]

If you were on fire you'd be screaming and running around. This guy sat calmly through it to the end.

Have you been on fire often? I'm not sure why you're so impressed by this. You can find no end of religious nutcases who do deranged things perfectly calmly - from walking over hot coals to whipping themselves to a bloody pulp. They say Yukio Mishima gutted himself with a sword perfectly calmly. So what?

You honestly don't see the day to day value of being able to act independent of your emotional and physical impulses?

Why do you think it's so valuable to be "independent of your emotional impulses"? Are your emotions so out of control?

It's clear you have no experience with or understanding of meditation and mindfulness, so before you continue to make broad statements about them you might want to look into it just a little bit.

I spent years studying it. I've forgotten more about buddhism than you'll ever know.

Pointing out that some Buddhists were bad people has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about

It is useful to seperate talk from reality tho. Always look at what people do - not what they say. You'll get at the truth a lot quicker that way.

 

[pupnik]

burning buddhists are like exploding muslims
true delusionary bullshit

 

[Doldrugs]

Everyone's emotions are out of control.

I'm not religious. I've just found a lot of value in the scientifically validated practice of mindfulness. It's clear you don't understand it or have any experience with it, which is sad. Everyone could benefit from it.

 

[Erikmen]

burning buddhists are like exploding muslims
true delusionary bullshit

Besides being brutal and violent..

 

[jason7]

I would get feelings of enlightenment or connection with the deity from MXE at fairly high doses but after a few times I realized that it's just an effect of the chemical. It may be possible to get true insights from certain drugs but it's pretty hard to tell if it's real or an illusion. It feels real at the time but usually afterwards the feeling wears off and after a few days I just say "that was a weird trip". That's the thing about psychs or dissos, the illusions are so realistic feeling that you really can't tell if they're illusory or not when it's happening, and maybe even for a while after. For me, it always comes back to the grim reality of being a physical creature and any psychedelic insights become pretty insignificant in the face of the realities of daily living. Same old stuff, gotta eat, gotta sleep, gotta work for a living. The enlightenment stuff takes a back seat very quickly, considering that it doesn't really effect anything. You can be nicer to people maybe but most of them will still end up being assholes, just like always.

 

[Doldrugs]

The enlightenment I've been discussing here isn't about "connection with the deity" or feeling really weird and/or awesome. It's about separating yourself from the part of your mind that makes decisions for you and accepting without judgment thoughts and feelings as they arise. This kind of thing doesn't leave you when you live your normal life in the real world. It is crucially tied to the real world.

 

[Ismene]

I'm not religious. I've just found a lot of value in the scientifically validated practice of mindfulness. It's clear you don't understand it or have any experience with it, which is sad. Everyone could benefit from it.

To a degree - obviously you don't need to be a buddhist to know about mindfulness. Whether mindfulness can help you in the same sense a psychedelic experience can is a different thing. A psychedelic experience is a vastly more powerful and emotionally cathartic experience than mindfulness. It's silly to compare the two.

Incidentally - it isn't only buddhist monks who self-immolate, there's people who did it to protest during the Prague spring. You don't need to study buddhism to set yourself on fire.

 

[Ismene]

I would get feelings of enlightenment or connection with the deity from MXE at fairly high doses but after a few times I realized that it's just an effect of the chemical. It may be possible to get true insights from certain drugs but it's pretty hard to tell if it's real or an illusion. It feels real at the time but usually afterwards the feeling wears off and after a few days I just say "that was a weird trip". That's the thing about psychs or dissos, the illusions are so realistic feeling that you really can't tell if they're illusory or not when it's happening, and maybe even for a while after. For me, it always comes back to the grim reality of being a physical creature and any psychedelic insights become pretty insignificant in the face of the realities of daily living. Same old stuff, gotta eat, gotta sleep, gotta work for a living. The enlightenment stuff takes a back seat very quickly, considering that it doesn't really effect anything. You can be nicer to people maybe but most of them will still end up being assholes, just like always.

I don't think it being impermanent makes it any less valuable tho - a few hours in paradise is enough to get me through another 7 days of getting up at 6am in the pissing rain to go to work with a load of arseholes. That's still pretty valuable. Certainly it would be difficult to live knowing that all you have are arseholes and pissing rain every morning.

 

[Doldrugs]

A psychedelic experience is a vastly more powerful and emotionally cathartic experience than mindfulness.

I don't agree. I think they carry the same potential.