• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Pre-084

Great !!! I didnt know anything of what was just said, thanks for that. I thought I knew where to get this but they dont have it in stock. Cursed me. Anyway now I know that if I get this compound I should try it alone first then see if it enhance or decrease effects of other drugs.
 
Achh...Why is sigma so damn complex?!
We really don't know a whole lot about sigma receptors yet. They don't quite fit into the big picture.

Though the thing is, PRE-084 could act completely differently to another sigma agonist
Indeed.

Great !!! I didnt know anything of what was just said, thanks for that. I thought I knew where to get this but they dont have it in stock. Cursed me. Anyway now I know that if I get this compound I should try it alone first then see if it enhance or decrease effects of other drugs.
I really wouldn't advise you to fuck around with experimental compounds like Pre-084, but I'm definitely quite reckles in that respect myself, so I should probably shut my mouth.
I strongly doubt that it will have any recreational value in itself, but I'd be very surprised if it had no effect on the effect other drugs have on you. :D
 
I really wouldn't advise you to fuck around with experimental compounds like Pre-084, but I'm definitely quite reckles in that respect myself, so I should probably shut my mouth.
I strongly doubt that it will have any recreational value in itself, but I'd be very surprised if it had no effect on the effect other drugs have on you. :D

I fucked with way to much RCs to stop here, even if doesnt have recreational value, I want to see what it does, its torturing me, I need to know ^^
 
I don't mean to encourage any of you to engage in reckless self-experimentation here... But I'm really eager to hear what kind of effects a selective sigma agonist might have. Here's to hoping someone takes the plunge. :)

All of my reading on the sigma receptor paints a confusing picture. But even if you just look at the list of compounds with sigma activity, you start to notice a pattern. Sigma seems to have an association with "delusional" and "magical" thinking, psychosis, profound experiences, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if schizophrenia turns out to be a sigma-related condition. Nor would I be surprised if it tend out that most cases of "stimulant psychosis" are related to the sigma affinity of many stimulants. Isn't it true that meth has more sigma affinity than regular old amp? Anyone know the sigma values of mdpv?
 
^ For me the pattern I noticed with sigma activity is that all the "hit" drugs seem to have sigma activity. Heroin, Cocaine, DMT, LSD, MDMA, etc.

It's probably more simply the fact that less well known drugs haven't been studied for sigma activity, but maybe it plays its part in what makes a drug feel like it has something special going for it over other similar drugs? Unlikely I'd assume, but who knows.
 
^ For me the pattern I noticed with sigma activity is that all the "hit" drugs seem to have sigma activity. Heroin, Cocaine, DMT, LSD, MDMA, etc.

It's probably more simply the fact that less well known drugs haven't been studied for sigma activity, but maybe it plays its part in what makes a drug feel like it has something special going for it over other similar drugs? Unlikely I'd assume, but who knows.

Most (if not all) SSRIs have sigma receptor affinity as well. I think the sigma receptor is just really promiscuous, you find hits all over the place.

Methamphetamine stimulated hyperthermia is also caused by sigma agonism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23744418

So whether or not it's involved in the feel good effects of MDMA, it probably increases hyperthermia based neurotoxicity caused by that drug.
 
Anyone knows the dosage of this substance ?

Please don't take this as definitive. This is a VERY rough estimate, but lacking any human reports maybe this can help with a starting point.

In general to convert from a mouse dose in mg/kg to a human dose in mg/kg, you divide the mouse dose by 12. The paper linked in the OP used .25mg/kg 3x a week IP, which comes out to .02mg/kg human dose - about 1.5mg for a 70kg (~150lb) person.

That said starting well under 1mg would be wise.


I'm curious if this has any effect on body temperature. Maybe someone testing this could take their temp at a few points before/after?
 
Please don't take this as definitive. This is a VERY rough estimate, but lacking any human reports maybe this can help with a starting point.

In general to convert from a mouse dose in mg/kg to a human dose in mg/kg, you divide the mouse dose by 12. The paper linked in the OP used .25mg/kg 3x a week IP, which comes out to .02mg/kg human dose - about 1.5mg for a 70kg (~150lb) person.

That said starting well under 1mg would be wise.


I'm curious if this has any effect on body temperature. Maybe someone testing this could take their temp at a few points before/after?
Absolutely, anyone who's testing this for the first time should have SOMEONE ELSE with them measuring important information like vital signs, body temperature, and monitoring for any clues of psychotic or irrational behavior.

Self-administration of psychotropics is dangerous because... Well, they're psychotropic.

Once there's a greater history of human usage, or at least a more reliable assessment of likely effects, some of this stuff can be treated a bit more loosely. But we really don't have anything more than speculation at this point about the actual subjective effects of PRE.
 
I think the experiment will be fruitless, but if you are dead set on administering this compound, start at considerably less than 100ug IV to be "safe".
 
^^^^ This.

It could very well be a fruitless endevour but until someone takes the plunge we may never know. What influences me most is the fact that Heroin's sigma activity comes not from heroin itself but the Noscapine left over in the primitive manufacture of such a drug. This confirms for me that the 'hit' from it comes from an extraneous compound and if such a compound were administered alongside a compound without sigma affinity it could enhance the 'hit' of it.

I've been racking my mind to think of such a basic drug to use alongside sigma agonists which have absolutely no sigma affinity themselves and I came up with benzodiazepines. These compounds are relatively safe and if one was to go over the edge, not much more would happen than unconsciousness. This seems to be the basis for experimenting. I've also decided to acquire some Opipramol to aid in this study so we have 3 semi-selective sigma agonists (along with Noscapine and PRE-084) to use as a base testing ground.

My only worry is that certain benzos such as the -zolams (i.e. Alprazolam, Triazolam and Brotizolam) would have some sigma affinity due to their potency and their intensity, so I figure a bog-standard benzo such as Diazepam would be perfect for testing. If anyone knows of any sigma affinity with benzos, I would love to know as there aren't many basic, thoroughly understood drugs without sigma agonism.

RC's are of course completely out of the question as we have very little knowledge about them. Another idea I had was with MDA but even then I think it may have some sigma agonism as MDMA does but I can't be sure without looking a lot deeper into the mechanisms of it.

If anyone else has an idea for a basic drug that lacks sigma agonism I'd love to hear about it as it could be the secondary testing ground for sigma agonists.

Also these plans are a fair way in the future so for the meantime we must put together experiments that cannot be defied by minor agonism of sigma intrinsic to the compounds.

EDIT: Also, unfortunately, I have a strict rule against IV'ing drugs as it could lead to me using opioids in such a fashion, which would greatly hinder any progress I have with this experiment and others I have in mind so oral and insufflated would be the only options available to me. Sorry, but I cannot risk my own temptations (and possibly life) for the sake of research.

Also I would be certain to have someone else watching over me during these experiments. This is an imperative, which I would not cross.
 
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It could very well be a fruitless endevour but until someone takes the plunge we may never know. What influences me most is the fact that Heroin's sigma activity comes not from heroin itself but the Noscapine left over in the primitive manufacture of such a drug. This confirms for me that the 'hit' from it comes from an extraneous compound and if such a compound were administered alongside a compound without sigma affinity it could enhance the 'hit' of it.
I've taken noscapine in very high doses, both alone and in combination with other opiates, morphine, oxycodone and hydromorphone. If it did anything at all, it wasn't very noticable, nothing spectacular anyway.

I've been racking my mind to think of such a basic drug to use alongside sigma agonists which have absolutely no sigma affinity themselves and I came up with benzodiazepines. These compounds are relatively safe and if one was to go over the edge, not much more would happen than unconsciousness. This seems to be the basis for experimenting. I've also decided to acquire some Opipramol to aid in this study so we have 3 semi-selective sigma agonists (along with Noscapine and PRE-084) to use as a base testing ground.
I see you're on a serious quest to get higher here! Many people are curious about sigma receptors, I can see why you'd want to try this and aside from a general harm reduction attitude nothing would really keep me from reaffirming you in that quest. :D Opipramol does indeed make for some weird combinations, e.g. it reliably gives me serotonine syndrome combined with tramadol which on it's own has neglible serotonergic effects on me compared to the opioid goodness it's metabolite o-desmethyltramadol unleashes.

Why the need for PRE-084 if you already have two sigma agonists? Those could be a starting point and you could still go for PRE-084 from there.

As for other drugs, there are plenty. Amphetamine would be another one on the stimulant side that gives very reliable effects.

I can see why you don't want to IV (I personally just stay away from IV opiates, but e.g. dissociatives are ok), but are you sure PRE-084 is orally active? I haven't checked.

I really don't want to discourage you (and honestly it seems there is no way I could) because I'm curious myself, but I still think we'd know if noscapine or opipramol were valuable in enhancing other recreational drugs' effects, they're both commonly prescribed here in Germany. You will probably see some change of effects, but I doubt it will be mindblowing in any way.

Btw almost all of these recreational drugs that seem to bind to sigma receptors are highly habit forming, why would you want to take that risk when you don't trust yourself with IV'ing? Benzos cause some pretty severe dependance issues when taken on their own already. In a worst case scenario, you'll have a much bigger problem than before.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to your reports!
 
I've taken noscapine in very high doses, both alone and in combination with other opiates, morphine, oxycodone and hydromorphone. If it did anything at all, it wasn't very noticable, nothing spectacular anyway.

Ah well then. I'll still try it but now I'm not too excited over it. I think it's OTC in Peru so I may have to source it from there.

I see you're on a serious quest to get higher here! Many people are curious about sigma receptors, I can see why you'd want to try this and aside from a general harm reduction attitude nothing would really keep me from reaffirming you in that quest. :D Opipramol does indeed make for some weird combinations, e.g. it reliably gives me serotonine syndrome combined with tramadol which on it's own has neglible serotonergic effects on me compared to the opioid goodness it's metabolite o-desmethyltramadol unleashes.

I'm not on a mission to get higher, just to learn how sigma works and how it affects other compounds. I've been all the way to the top so getting the "ultimate high" really isn't on my to-do list. The research is so interesting though, it's like you're looking into a black hole with a tiny bit of light at the end. I want to see that light. It's about discovery more than anything else.

Interesting about Opipramol, serotonin syndrome would be the first thing to come up when combining it with the usual drugs but I think when combining it with benzos it could hold a lot more facets. Again though the 3 would be tested against one another to see if it's the s1 or s2 that's increasing the activity. I sure as hell won't be touching it with serotonergic compounds though. I've been put off serotonin lately (releasers mostly, the receptors I still love) so it'd be dopamine or GABA principally. I /may/ have a go with some psychedelics just to see if it affects them in any way, but the most benign psychedelics at that, no 2C-T-x's or aMT type compounds. MAOI is a great threat level when working with sigma agonists, it could completely caffell (EDIT for comprehension: fuck you over!) you.

Why the need for PRE-084 if you already have two sigma agonists? Those could be a starting point and you could still go for PRE-084 from there.

Simply because it seems a lot more selective than the others that would be used and of course because it's use has not been tested yet, so someone needs to be a guinea pig!


As for other drugs, there are plenty. Amphetamine would be another one on the stimulant side that gives very reliable effects.

Is amphetamine not a sigma agonist itself? I was thinking about it but IIRC it is a sigma agonist. If not then it would be adequate for me to use.

I can see why you don't want to IV (I personally just stay away from IV opiates, but e.g. dissociatives are ok), but are you sure PRE-084 is orally active? I haven't checked.

It may not be orally active, but insufflated it may be. It is water soluble and if needs be I'll add some Chitosan to increase bioavailability to try to get the most out of it.

Btw almost all of these recreational drugs that seem to bind to sigma receptors are highly habit forming, why would you want to take that risk when you don't trust yourself with IV'ing? Benzos cause some pretty severe dependance issues when taken on their own already. In a worst case scenario, you'll have a much bigger problem than before.

Don't worry about that, I already have a pretty heavy benzo dependance, I am however worried about increasing my tolerance to them. It could drastically alter my tolerance thus creating a much larger problem but I would use it alongside NMDA antagonists (such as ketamine and MXE, outside of the experiments) to help reduce tolerance via the Nociceptinergic pathways, if I am right in thinking that is what causes tolerance?

I just want to get to the end of this, as I've been theorising over sigma agonists for a good two years now and I really want to get some solid (in vivo) evidence of either non-enhancing activity or enhancing activity. It's a thorn in my side that I just want to be over and done with! Even if I produce no significant results I'll be happy that I tried and completed this age old theory of mine (and others'!).
 
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Shit. Good point. The thought never even crossed my mind! It'd be so much easier too.

Fuck it, back to the drawing board! :)
 
Ok, I've found a sigma antagonist (Lamictal) and I'm using it on top of 3-MeO-PCP(a sigma agonist).

At the moment I find it (3-MeO-PCP) to be a very powerful substance. I have just dropped one 50mg pill of Lamictal. T-6.30

This should rid the sigma agonism and put me back to baseline.

I will update any observations in due course.

The Lamictal seems to have kicked in. I took too much 3-MeO-PCP and am circling the bowl at the moment. The Lamictal has had some affect on me, I can still produce lucid thoughts and at this level of 3-MeO-PCP I would not be able to perform simple tasks (without the Lamictal). I am still a little dreary but it seems that the Lamictal has taken away the core spirit of the 3-MeO. It may be a placebo so tomorrow I will work on trying to use Lamictal to try to null effects of other drugs which embody sigma agonism.

Overall I feel very strange, like I'm in the middle of ego-loss but I'm still present, if you see what I mean.

I also have a mild headache and am feeling quite intoxicated. There must be a nullification of 3-MeO-PCP's effects otherwise I wouldn't be able to type at this level. I'll venture further tomorrow as I have a fairly large amount of Lamictal at my disposition.

So strange it was under my nose the whole time but never got around to actually looking at it. My girlfriend is the one who opened my eyes to this so I am in all gratitude and awe at what she saw, which I had not!

Tomorrow is another day, so I'll put together an experiment to see what exactly antagonism causes, in a multitude of different aspects. I'm still heavily under the 3-MeO so if this doesn't make sense then I am sorry and I will edit it later on.

For now though it really seems to rip the heart and soul of the drug away and in contrast I would expect to see agonism enhancing such compounds to a noticeable degree.
 
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Ok, I've found a sigma antagonist (Lamictal) and I'm using it on top of 3-MeO-PCP(a sigma agonist).

At the moment I find it (3-MeO-PCP) to be a very powerful substance. I have just dropped one 50mg pill of Lamictal. T-6.30

This should rid the sigma agonism and put me back to baseline.

I will update any observations in due course.

It should only put you back to baseline if the 3-MeO-PCP alters your cognition exclusively through Sigma receptor agonism. Anyways Lamictal is only a very weak sigma receptor antagonist (IC50 145uM) so any interaction between the two drugs will likely be due to lamotrigine's other, more potent activities.
 
Lamotrigine is an antagonist at s1r's? News to me.
Anyway, such coincidence! I just had my daily 100mg lamotrigine for bipolar1, shortly before diving into a 160mg racemic ketamine iv experience.
Can't say I noticed anything different about the holes since I'm on lamotrigine, but then again I used to insufflate or IM racemic ketamine and have only recently (already on lamotrigine) first IV'ed racemic ketamine, a roa that I had previously only used with the s isomer. I am writing this with one eye closed^^, so excuse any grammatical or spelling errors.
 
Yeah, you're both right. I don't think it produced any change. At the time I was in a bit of a placebo mode and the 3-MeO was a little overwhelming, which goaded me into thinking there was an alteration. I'll try again but with a larger dose of Lamictal. If the IC50 is 145uM then to get to an adequate level you'd need to use say 5x as much to get to a space where the Lamictal would have an affect on the 3-MeO-PCP, who's binding affinity to s1 is around 42nM. So they'd both be around the 30-40nM level. My one concern is due to the horror stories of people taking too much Lamicatal and gaining temporary epilepsy (or consistent epilepsy as in some cases). I think that's just after continued use over a period of several months/years the suddenly dropping it, so I should be ok.

Also both me and my girlfriend have used Ketamine on Lamictal before and it didn't really produce any negligible effects to the ketamine, so that correlates with the weak antagonism. I'm going to hunt down some more potent, and selective, antagonists now and see if I can source them. In the meanwhile I'll be doing tests upon Lamictal and various other compounds as we have a hell of a lot of Lamictal here!

Another important note to make is that when my girlfriend was on Lamictal religiously she never really seemed to have any differences in the affects of drugs, so I would need a much more potent antagonist.

PS: Cr00k you lucky bastard, I am too a K fiend but it's just too expensive nowadays as my tolerance is sky high. Also I only ever go for the S-isomer so it's a little more pricey than racemic. Never IV'd though, is there a drastic change in experience or does it just kick quicker and heavier? I've been contemplating IM'ing DPT and S-K for around four years now but still never got around to it. :/

I've insufflated both multiple times but I really feel like I'm missing out on something, also I hate that DPT clogging up my nose, so I've refrained from using it as much as I used to. K doesn't seem to bother me though, it's minty freshness is golden when absorbing into my nasal cavities!

At some point I'm going to have to gather my balls together and take the plunge, it's just the draw of opiates that scares me. I'm chipping at the moment and only insufflating and smoking. Rigging is like my line in the sand. Once you pass that the world is open to you but the negatives heavily outweigh the positives. I can just see myself falling into a spiral of opioid addiction. I'm really on the fence with this one but the positives are so much more worth it. I mean IV'ing DMT is something I really want to try some day but once you get into that laissez-faire attitude to needles, I can't trust myself to stop.

I feel like a snail crawling on the edge of a straight razor, just enough balance to keep me still but if something flowed over me, I would fall into a deep pit of despair (I watched "Apocalypse Now" recently on K).

I am sloly loosing congition so I'll EDIT when I'm coherant, I'm having trouble geting my thoughts together.

I'm going into ego-loss
 
@blueberries
While I do expect those sigma trials to change the effects other drugs have on you, I expect it to be more subtle than you could really feel subjectively, let alone measure.
Why in god's name would you prefer s isomer over racemic ketamine? S isomer is so dull and boring, hardly psychedelic at all for me.

Regarding the DPT, you should get some freebase of it or convert the salt. It smokes very well, just like DMT. Unfortunately it is liquid, but it's still very easy to smoke. Insufflating DPT can seriously alter the quality of my experience simply because of that nasty-ass drip.

Just make it a rule to never inject any opiates man, that's bad news, especially if you are addicted to them anyway. I've been doing okay like that. Ketamine really has to be IM'ed at least to be enjoyable after one has been doing it for a while. Can't say I'm eager to inject DMT, it's completely sufficient smoking it imho. However I guess it would be more reliable. The idea of DMT and K in one shot isn't exactly unattractive...

Anyway, ideally you just stay away from needles if you think you might run into troubles. At least it's a good idea to postpone that for as long as you can.^^ I watched Platoon on the K comedown the other day. :D
 
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