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Fear of death is irrational

It is not fallacious to illustrate an abstraction while asking a question in its relation to your own perspective of how the abstraction will play out. If anything it's a lazy dialectical question. Sure it could be in the better self-interest of the father to spend thousands of dollars for the health of his child. But I think you'll agree this is an exaggerated account of beneficial self-interest. What if the father likes to do drugs all the time while keeping his family healthy. The underlining assumption here is that restraint is not going to be self-interested.
in most any scenario, it IS in the father's interest to help a younger child, so long as the child is a value to the father (most would agree anything else as monstrous). It is almost never ever ever in a person's interest to do drugs in any addictive/dependent manners - that type of "selfishness"/self-interest is NOT what's advocated (in that it is not rational self interest)


I never said that the self-interested benefactors of the crash of '08 had poor family lives or didn't possess the quality of guilt.
i think it can safely be assumed that those bearing most of the responsibility* are likely to be the types to lack guilt.
*the varying levels of responsibility, and types of responsibility, clearly make that a bitch to analyze. Politicians, financiers, unscrupulous mortgagors, all the way down to ignorant homebuyers, bear responsibility to varying degrees (and should have different types of guilt - a major part of which i think does or should hinge upon how aware they were of what was happening; some were truly ignorant <many of the homebuyers>, while others <fannie/freddie for ex.> absolutely knew what was to be expected)
 
Yes but what isn't rational about drug use? What incentive does a person have [short of collective thinking] propels someone to come to your conclusion? Drugs is just an example of a type of hedonism that can be rationalized and still fit within the picture of Rand's theory. There are of course a million more examples.

The question of them feeling guilty is pretty irrelevant wouldn't you say? I was just backing up my own stance showing that I didn't exclude altruism. The fact that it happened and appearing to be a reality bound to self-indigence and 'interest' is the issue at hand.

This has been an interesting discussion, these things have tendencies to go around in circles. I look forward to reading your response but I must step out or this thread about fear of death will continue to page 30
 
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People forget who they are every night when they go to sleep, if they do deep meditation, or if they are put under anaesthetic. It's possible to know what the absence of ego is like, right now. That is what death is like. The only difference between life and death is the artificial separation that ego applies to it, but ego itself is not real despite its own self-axiomatic insistence that it is. You can try to "maximize ego" all you like but zero x infinity is still going to equal zero in the end.
 
Yes but what isn't rational about drug use?
well, some commonly agreed-upon irrational drug behavior would be driving impaired; addiction/dependence; reckless usage in general; etc etc etc.
Some would argue the whole straight-edge/mormon approach is the best approach- i disagree and think that moderation and smart/rational usage is what is "proper" or right.
(it's kind of tough to elaborate when speaking in such generalities as "drugs". Specific drugs and specific usages have certain positive roles, ranging from therepeutic(psychologically- i'm not referring to meds for physical ailments) to recreation/relaxation to enlightenment/development(yes i know many disagree w/ that idea entirely, to each their own i guess).

What incentive does a person have [short of collective thinking] propels someone to come to your conclusion?
well, if a person wants to maximize their existence, then it should be abundantly clear to them that, say, a crack addiction, would not be rational. There's no need for collective thinking to come to that conclusion- one can experience addiction themselves or see it in another, and that knowledge (should) put them to the conclusion that misuse like that is bad and incompatible w/ 'proper' living (the same would apply to DWI)

Drugs is just an example of a type of hedonism that can be rationalized and still fit within the picture of Rand's theory.
yes, and no. Some types of drug usage do, and other types do not. It depends (a quick test would be: does this further my goals and myself, or am i seeking pleasure right now at the expense of my future? There's a lot of gray here depending on person/drug/usage+intention/etc, and no there is no hard and fast position from her perspective. She was a speed freak, yet had cast "drugs"/narcotics with a very broad stroke and strongly disapproved <the irony was lost on her lol - i don't believe benzedrine(amphetamine) that was from her dr was seen as a proper narcotic as it is today>


The question of them feeling guilty is pretty irrelevant wouldn't you say?
yes i think it is entirely irrelevant, i was just addressing your having mentioned it. WRT the whole '08 crash, ppl's intents and subsequent feelings (whethr guilt, or thinking how to game the setup the next time around - whihc WILL happen, mark my words) are not even that important to me, honestly.



I was just backing up my own stance showing that I didn't exclude altruism. The fact that it happened and appearing to be a reality bound to self-indigence and 'interest' is the issue at hand.
That is where the distinctions of "rational", and the frameworking of laissez-faire, are critical. Unchecked greed and self-interest, taken as the only factor, will very obviously lead to massive fuckups.

This has been an interesting discussion, these things have tendencies to go around in circles. I look forward to reading your response but I must step out or this thread about fear of death will continue to page 30
lol true enough - given that this thread is beyond dead and even the semantics have been beaten to death, i didn't feel too bad off-tracking ;P
 
disregarding what argument? I'm not seeing what part of my points were addressed, just his typical implication that i'm ridiculous-by-association because i like rand. Worst part of coming to P&S is that bullshit :/

You cannot be serious. Or can you?

I've attempted, in no fewer than three different threads, to tease out something resembling a logically structured conversation about the relative merits of Ayn Rand's (IMO) insipid little 'philosophy,' only to met by you deliberately ignoring my posts, refusing to participate meaningfully (as in, USTFSE when you don't understand some non-technical term), or just neglecting to respond in any way at all. You, bmx^3, are the undisputed king of bizarre/amusing un-self-awareness on this website.
 
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i've little doubt that you're truly failing to grasp why i've zero interest in discussing her with you. You've made up your mind already- wtf point would there be? If you're curious about any further thoughts i have, then rest assured there is VERY little objectivist sentiment that I disagree with. Wiki will tell you most anything i could.
Cheers.
 
there is VERY little objectivist sentiment that I disagree with

Then "you've made up your mind already - wtf point would there be?" You know, bmx, there exists a phenomenon called 'disagreement' which consists principally of two or more parties holding and expressing contrasting views on a topic of interest. Whether anyone has 'made their minds up' or not is absolutely beside the point. If you don't want to talk about Ayn Rand, fine. If you do want to talk about Rand, and continually insist that I've neglected to offer you ample opportunity to do so, fine. But it cannot be both. Make up your damn mind - either I'm disregarding you and your commentary, or you're simply unwilling or unable to sustain a cogent debate on this 'thinker,' about whom, yes indeed, we do disagree. Welcome to the world of debate and argumentation.

[For my part, I suspect that you don't have much to offer on Rand above and beyond quoting her and reiterating her views, hence my references to Kool-Aid, &c. Thus far, you have done nothing but confirm this suspicion.]
 
i love discussing rand, and could explain her theories of objectivism better than anyone on this board, i have little doubt (having read most every work she's put out no fewer than several times, and many many times more for particular pieces i've been enamored with)
that said, i don't like discussing her with you. your constant (false) impression i've just gotten into her, or bullshit about me quoting her (hint: the only time i ever ever need to grab a book or google is for occasional, longer fiction quotes from her. it's very very rare i assure you), repeated kool-aid / 'you'll grow out of it, don't worry' bullshit would make going further with you a chore and exercise in frustration tho. If you honestly did want to hear my thoughts, you'd approach it very differently; the way you approach it is the very reason i'm completely uninterested in trying to discuss things with you.
So, i'll just stick to repeating these reasons to you every.single.time that you dislike how i word something, and jump in like a child w/ your ridiculous assumptions. Which is 24/7 lately, it seems :| SOOOoo yeah, have fun and cya next time, pa.
 
i love discussing rand, and could explain her theories of objectivism better than anyone on this board, i have little doubt (having read most every work she's put out no fewer than several times, and many many times more for particular pieces i've been enamored with)
that said, i don't like discussing her with you. your constant (false) impression i've just gotten into her, or bullshit about me quoting her (hint: the only time i ever ever need to grab a book or google is for occasional, longer fiction quotes from her. it's very very rare i assure you), repeated kool-aid / 'you'll grow out of it, don't worry' bullshit would make going further with you a chore and exercise in frustration tho. If you honestly did want to hear my thoughts, you'd approach it very differently; the way you approach it is the very reason i'm completely uninterested in trying to discuss things with you.
So, i'll just stick to repeating these reasons to you every.single.time that you dislike how i word something, and jump in like a child w/ your ridiculous assumptions. Which is 24/7 lately, it seems :| SOOOoo yeah, have fun and cya next time, pa.

So are you just gonna bark all day little doggy...or are you gonna bite?

mr.blonde.jpg
 
didn't suspect i could ever see a shred of something positive in you. am glad i wasn't as obnoxious as i was inclined to be earlier.
/fuck you i love rand.
//zero interest in trying to go toe-to-toe w/ you playing devil's advocate to my position (regardless of how far/close you truly stand from her positions)

///hits kat.ph to dl reservoir dogs.
 
99% people tell they are totaly not afraid of death,but when the death comes knocking on their door,98.5% shit their pants in terror
 
i dunno..most anyone acknowledges fear of death IMO. itg-shit notwithstanding.
 
I was hoping someone can clarify something for me. the first post in this thread... is that the philosophy of the skeptics or stoics? thanks!
 
I don't fear death really.. just fear the repercussions it would have on my loved ones.

Chronic pain makes death seem like an escape from pain, wheras most people fear the pain of death IMO.
 
didn't suspect i could ever see a shred of something positive in you. am glad i wasn't as obnoxious as i was inclined to be earlier.
/fuck you i love rand.
//zero interest in trying to go toe-to-toe w/ you playing devil's advocate to my position (regardless of how far/close you truly stand from her positions)

///hits kat.ph to dl reservoir dogs.

Actually, you don't need to argue anymore. Your last answers dissipated any doubt about the depth of your arguments to, most probably, everyone reading.
 
Not really afraid of death itself-or what might happen after, more so afraid of how I will possibly die. I'm afraid of painful, or surprising/unexpected, death.
 
Not really afraid of death itself-or what might happen after, more so afraid of how I will possibly die. I'm afraid of painful, or surprising/unexpected, death.


I've considered the possibility of many forms of my own death from a purely theoretical perspective, you'll never be fully prepared (obviously otherwise if you were prepared you'd be alive) but you can improve your knowledge to prepare yourself for more eventualities the best you can.

Just be careful not to let it turn into an obsession rather than a practical tool.

WARNING:Also this can be quite a unpalatable mental process, so don't proceed if you feel it is too much, this is a means to grow resilience within ones self.
 
The fellow who quite confidently asserted that the fear of death is irrational, might not be as accepting of his stance later as he is at present. I hope he lives present tense for the remainder of his life. I?m aware that many of self-professing highly rational and intellectual types find spirituality and especially Christ to somehow be beneath their progressive mental evolution, but I would encourage you to resist the temptation of capriciously dividing the field into your predetermined and often parroted conclusions. Here is a verse from Hebrews 2:14-16: ?Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death?that is, the devil? (I know, but read on) and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham?s descendants.? Even if you think of the bible and all as mythology, continue with it as a ternary or non-dualistic newly open minded way of perceiving. Contempt prior to evaluation is our egos ?devilish? one trick pony approach. Christ introduced Non-dualistic thinking to the Western world. Many Eastern religious (practices), not merely ?belief systems?, such as we have sorrowfully in the United States and much of Europe, have been using non-dualistic thinking even since before Jesus. (Christ was before the Big Bang but more on this as we will read on down in a bit). Jesus said, ?Love thine enemies,? and ?If someone slaps you on the cheek, turn to them the other also,? and ?Do not resist evil people,? and ?You must become again as little children.? These obviously are highly counterintuitive statements and certainly leave a tension hanging between, ?I?m right, you?re wrong!? (Dualistic thinking) as contrasted with the ?third eye? or ?trinity? manner of perceiving reality as it is. Imagine it this way. Say you have a circle with 2 entities in it. This very imagery lends itself towards the 2 being in opposition. Even if the 2 agree on seemingly everything, there is no space or place for a more discerning or alternate arrival at the ?truth.? On the other hand, imagine placing one more entity in this circle and with this ?Third Eye? of interpretation, the opposition necessarily now must yield to eternal implications and possibilities. I put it thus: ?Two is conflict, three is a merciful third truth.? This mediator or ambassador is called ?The Spirit of Truth,? and everyone ever born is born with Her. For example, when Christ spoke to the rich young ruler regarding his riches and material hoarding, He first asked him if he kept the law of Moses or the 10 commandments. The fellow replied that he had kept them all since childhood. Now, that?s what I think most of us would term some form of ?objective morality.? Everything neat, tidy, moralistic, hard if not impossible to maintain for life. Christ tells him he hasn?t kept the most important and lovingly generous ?commandment.? Namely, to sell all of his material goods (his temporal attachments by use of exaggeration to teach a point) and use the proceeds to give to the poor. This is metaphorical symbolism, and is used to make a greater point. Again, this seems, specially in Europe and America, to be absurdly counterintuitive. But note that the story doesn?t stop when the wealthy fellow walks off apparently somewhat dejected. Once out of eyesight, one of Christ?s followers asked Him, ?If this man?s only wrongdoing is his having an abundance of possessions and even he can?t see the kingdom of God, then how is possible for anyone whosoever to enter into heaven?? Christ?s answer is wildly non-dualistic as He replies, ?Humanly speaking, it is impossible; but with God all things are possible.? Another metaphor that we still use today that Christ spoke was, ?Stop gagging on gnats yet swallowing elephants.? This gagging on gnats is a perfect example of dualistic, ALL or NOTHING thinking. Read the following by the late CS Lewis in his book, ?The Great Divorce.?


?Let us be frank. Our opinions were not honestly come by. We simply found ourselves in contact with a certain current of ideas and plunged into it because it seemed modern and successful. At College, you know, we just started automatically writing the kind of essays that got good marks and saying the kind of things that won applause. When, in our whole lives, did we honestly face, in solitude, the one question on which all turned: whether after all the Supernatural might not in fact occur? When did we put up one moment?s real resistance to the loss of our faith??


A kind of Polly doesn?t want a Cracker or to keep parroting shopworn platitudes as handed down from one ALL or NOTHING generation to the next. Perhaps, Polly wants to get out of her damnable birdcage. Bear in mind another and better alternative to what we think of as ?prayer.? Tell God what we want and babble on nonsense that He/She already knew. Indeed, what is called ?contemplative? prayer is a wholly and quite peaceable Eternal Now sort of simply being in silence and solitude (or in your closet as Christ mentions) while observing one?s repetitive, compulsive, negative, judgmental, labeling, blaming, pigeon holing sort of constantly intrusive thought patterns. It is to listen and observe to one?s own egoistic and mostly unconscious self-talk and see how utterly absurd and humiliating these long-held dualistic and, frankly, disturbing thought ?patterns? have attached themselves to one?s mind, their very identity. This is why many people will not even attempt it or if they begin, they?ll bail out when they observe their ?false self? identity crumbling down like a house of cards. The ?false self? represents the ego and its highly insecure demand for some kind of, any kind of identity - be it from titles, income, cars, status, position, station in life, education level, any sort of exclusionary separation from others that helps them to temporally if not painfully maintain a ?better than?, ?more than,? and even ?less than? ephemeral and shallow type of identity. ?The first shall be last and the last shall be first.? Christ, not ?Christianity,? operates from a bottom up, never a top down sort of power tripping compliance methodology. Thus, to say the United States is a ?Christian? nation through and through is oxymoronic. Hindus and Buddhist don?t enjoin the pyramid power scheme either. Even Muslim mystics have offered remarkable insights into spiritual and nonviolent teachings. Faith is not the opposite of doubt, it?s the opposite of certitude. The contemplative mind is the most absolute assault on the secular world view that you can have, because it really is a different mind. The present moment has no competition; it is not judged in comparison to any other. It has never happened before and will not happen again. But when I?m in competition, I?m not in love. I can?t get to love because I?m looking for a new way to dominate. Life is a matter of becoming fully and consciously who we already are, but it is a self that we largely do not know. People who?ve had any genuine spiritual experience always know that they don?t know. They are utterly humbled before mystery. They are in awe before the abyss of it all, in wonder at eternity and depth, and a Love, which is incomprehensible to the mind. Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear. Gandhi wrote: ?In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice within.?


Another writing by CS Lewis below evidences this non-dualistic way of perceiving morality from an entirely new, liberating and exceedingly less punitive, rewards/punishment, fire and brimstone way in which the vast majority of Catholics, Protestants, Fundamentalist (egregiously literal unyielding sort of ?one size fits all? mindset) as well as the other fractured, splinter celled 30,000 de-nominations who, with an arrogant degree of certitude, have rigidly moralistic ideas of who will earn their way into heaven OR be eternally tortured in hell. Note, Christ never espoused a commandment that, ?Thou shalt be Right!? Hardly. Sadly, religion managed to maul that to pieces for one primary reason: To keep their flock coming back for more hopeful and yet distressing good and, if honest, bad news (dualism). Attendance and membership have been the main measuring rods to soothe fragile egos. A rather childish means to satiate the pastor?s personal performance evaluation. Christ is not a belief system for fearfully inclined people to buy a fire insurance policy while lifelessly meandering around this world without any concern about heaven other than it to be an emergency evacuation plan. Such people say: ?To hell with the poor rubes left behind!? CS Lewis?s insightful jot below:


?The bad psychological material is not a sin but a disease. It does not need to be repented of, but to be cured . And by the way, that is very important. Human beings judge one another by their external actions. God judges them by their moral choices. When a neurotic who has a pathological horror of cats forces himself to pick up a cat for some good reason, it is quite possible that in God's eyes he has shown more courage than a healthy man may have shown in winning the Congressional Medal of Honor. When a man who has been perverted from his youth and taught that cruelty is the right thing does some tiny little kindness, or refrains from some cruelty he might have committed, and thereby, perhaps, risks being sneered at by his companions, he may, in God's eyes, be doing more than you and I would do if we gave up life itself for a friend. It is as well to put this the other way round. Some of us who seem quite nice people may, in fact, have made so little use of a good heredity and good upbringing that we are really worse than those whom we regard as fiends. Can we be quite certain how we should have behaved if we had been saddled with the psychological outfit, and then with the bad upbringing, and then with the power, say, of Himmler? That is why Christians are told not to judge. We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological makeup is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger. We shall then, for the first time, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.?


While I haven?t gotten into A Priori and Empirical philosophical jargon, I trust that this less formal narrative language approach can offer insights into morality without being moralistic and dogmatic.


The God of the universe cannot possibly be contained and detained within the Bible. The last sentence in the book of John says: ?There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.?


Now, it is important and helpful to once and finally see what most church going people seemingly don?t see or know to even acknowledge and this isn?t anyone?s fault. Christ?s having entered into this world some 2000 years ago was not His Father?s Plan B or rather a quickly contrived backup manoeuvre because God hadn?t planned ahead properly before He spoke the cosmos (Big Bang) into material existence. Plan A is and has always been, Plan A. In myth, legend, or what we term the real world's storyline, you'll always see a redemptive thread, especially when you're taught how to see, not merely what you must, ought, should merely look at.


Then God said, "Let US (plural) make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." -Genesis 1:26


?In the beginning the Word (Christ) already existed. The Word (Christ) was with God, and the Word was God. He (Christ) existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through him (Christ) and nothing was created except through him (Christ). The Word gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.? -John?s prologue


?He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the (FIRSTBORN over all creation). For by Him (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him (Christ) and for Him (Christ). And He (Christ) is BEFORE all things, and in Him (Christ) all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who IS the beginning, the (FIRSTBORN from the dead), that in all things He may have the preeminence.? -Colossians 1:14?18


A Cosmic Christ who when spoke into material existence from and out of the trinity (Father, Son, Spirit of Truth), caused a literal atomic Big Bang outwardly spiral dynamics cosmological order to include entropy and even what quantum physics is revealing about the patterns of law and the principle of three.
????????

 
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