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Smackie Thread

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it's called precipitated withdrawal.

interesting

Does this mean I can bring forward my withdrawals through the use of a particular drug or combination thereof?

Are you able to explain further on this or direct me to some literature on it?
 
bring forward?
it just means you'll go into a super intense WD. sounds utterly horrific.
there is heaps of info elsewhere on bluelight about this phenomenon. Other Drugs forum particularly...
 
It's the opiate antagonist naloxone in suboxone that causes the precipitated withdrawals. I believe that bupe is one of the only opiates with a higher affinity than naloxone (correct me if I'm wrong) which is why the naloxone in suboxone doesn't counter act the bupe. Naltrexone is a similar opiate antagonist.
 
Chugs: WD happens as the amount of opioid in your body decreases and the receptors are being activated less. So with drugs that are quickly metabolized and excreted, e.g. morphine, heroin, etc... the WD comes on fairly quickly (within a few hours to a day). With opioids that last in the body, e.g. methadone, WD comes on much slower as the drug is a lot more slowly metabolized.

When you are addicted to opioids and take an opioid antagonist, basically you are putting yourself right into that part of WD where the receptors are not being occupied at all and the full force of WD is upon you. Hence why they add it to Suboxone, so that the tablets cannot be injected or the user will suffer for it.
 
When you are addicted to opioids and take an opioid antagonist, basically you are putting yourself right into that part of WD where the receptors are not being occupied at all and the full force of WD is upon you

so if i could get my hands on naloxone then after having a bender I could say eat it, the naloxone binds to my receptors thus preventing the opioids from doing their job.

Thus my brain would be in full WD. Great. That means if I eat the Naloxone, and then before it can affect me, fall asleep I can become sick straight away, sleep the sickness off and wake up fresh....I imagine though that I'd need to keep up the naloxone dose up until the opioids have been metabalised right?

(edit grammar)
 
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^ If you keep talking the antagonist, you will go through the normal period of WD, you just skip the first day or two of build up. It's not a over in one night kind of deal.
 
I thought naloxone wasn't particularly active orally the the point of being virtually inactive in what would otherwise be common dosage? Naltrexone is a better oral solution although I don't know if its a lot less effective than naloxone.

I don't think inducing precipitated withdrawals is the wisest of ideas, but I am not an opiate addict and have never had precipitated withdrawals, it might work for some people but I am skeptical it would be the best avenue for many people.
 
^ The only situations I've heard of precipitated WD being used is that treatment where they are put in a medical coma for the duration of the WD.

Yeah naloxone isn't active orally, it's there to prevent IV abuse of suboxone (and is used IV in hospitals/OD emergencies) so naltrexone would be the way to go. Brand name I've seen most commonly for naltrexone is Revia.
 
The naloxone in suboxone seems to be a pretty complicated issue, where I have heard of many reliable accounts of it being injected without a problem to catch a buzz there are people like the earlier poster who doesn't know what precipitated withdrawal is who have copped it from naloxone in bupe. I think the idea of naloxone probably serves to turn as many junkies that have had the displeasure of being woken up with a shot of narcan off the idea of giving the stuff a whack though...
 
I'm on 2.4 mg of suboxone and on occasion have IV'd my dose with no ill effects, except it doesn't last me the usual 24 hours as it does when I take it sublingually.

My friend, who's also on the same dose, always takes it IV. Rather than sticking it under his tongue he prefers to stick it in his arm...go figure ;-)
 
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Referring to above two posts: yes it doesn't seem to be a black and white issue. From back when I was moderating OD, most of the time when people experienced negative effects IV'ing suboxone was when they first got on it for addiction. It seems that if you have been on it for a while, it's antagonism ability is somewhat less and varies from person to person.
 
While i was on 16 mg (soboxone) a day for 8 months i IVed that amount a few times..Nothing happened. Nothing at all..BUT i gave a mate who was in withdrawal 8 mg. He IVed it and went into horrors! He had had 8 mg a few times before but under the tongue. When he IVed his 8mg he went into full on withdrawal..Vomiting,shitting, cramps everything...He was on 3rd day withdrawal off morphine so he didnt have Precipitated (Ta Mr Ibis...Knew the word, just not the spelling) withdrawal, just the fucked up effects from the soboxone being IVed.
You must be in a good amount of withdrawal to start back on your soboxone if you have played up..I used to wait 12-24hrs after last hit of morphine before i would dose again with soboxone....Sweating,teary eyes blah blah.
If you are on soboxone and want to play up, wait as long as you can and get yourself in as unplesant a state as you can. If you play up too soon you wont feel anything at all..I think this is when you could risk overdose as you have more and more than normal chasing the high that wont come. Thats if you still have too much soboxone in your system..
Please correct me if im wrong but this has been true for me. 8)
 
One way i did find to increase the "effects" of my soboxone was to put it under my tounge and go back to sleep...Made it a little bit better!!
 
Miss Kirsty, that's how you're supposed to take suboxone. It's designed for sublingual administration. There is a thread about mixing bupe with alcohol to increase its effects: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...c-Solutions-for-Higher-BA-With-Sublingual-Use - also, snorting bupe has a higher bioavailability than putting it under your tongue, although it doesn't last quite as long.

I have taken bupe 12 hours after my last dose of gear without experiencing precipitated withdrawals. I can tell when it's safe to take bupe due to the way I'm feeling. When going from a full agonist to bupe, I usually have my last dose about 6pm, go to sleep then see how I'm feeling in the morning. If the withdrawals aren't too bad, I'll wait a bit longer, but by the time I wake up my nose is usually like a tap and the yawns and teary eyes are usually bad enough for me to have some bupe.

The naloxone was put in suboxone to prevent IV abuse, however it is essentially useless as buprenorphine has a higher binding affinity than naloxone. Any receptors that naloxone manages to bind to would be almost instantly replaced by bupe. Because bupe is a partial agonist/partial antagonist, bupe itself will still put you in precipitated withdrawals if you are addicted to any other opiate, or have any in your system.

so if i could get my hands on naloxone then after having a bender I could say eat it, the naloxone binds to my receptors thus preventing the opioids from doing their job.

Thus my brain would be in full WD. Great. That means if I eat the Naloxone, and then before it can affect me, fall asleep I can become sick straight away, sleep the sickness off and wake up fresh....I imagine though that I'd need to keep up the naloxone dose up until the opioids have been metabalised right?

Haha, if you think it would be possible to sleep through precipitated withdrawals, you don't understand just how intense it is. I tried an at-home detox with naltrexone about 24 hours after my last dose of a full agonist (morphine), I wrote about it somewhere on bluelight I think, and it was honestly the most horrendous experience of my life. I took an enormous amount of benzos, waited for them to work, swallowed half a tab of naltrexone and went to bed. Within half an hour I was uncontrollably spewing, shitting, shivering, shaking, screaming and basically in hell for at least 8 hours wit no respite. The stomach cramps came in excruciatingly bad waves of agony about 4 seconds apart and lasted for 6-8 hours, gradually getting further apart. If I'd experienced having a baby, I would probably rather that than precipitated withdrawals. I've witnessed my partner going through labour and it didn't look fun, but it didn't last as long as this. I honestly wanted to kill myself but I didn't have the energy or ability to move. There's simply no way sleep would have been possible.

Naltrexone does speed up the withdrawal process, but it's not a magical pill which will make all symptoms of withdrawal over in one day that you can sleep through. About 4 or 5 days after my precipitated withdrawal, I was free from almost all of the withdrawal symptoms except for the intense cravings, which I eventually succumbed to.

I know several people who have undergone medically supervised naltrexone treatment (in Australia) in order to get over their opiate addiction. They were not placed in a coma, although that sounds like a much better way to go about it. There are rapid detox centers in U.S. and possibly here as well, that anesthetize you before giving you naltrexone, but this is a very expensive procedure. The friends I know who've done it in a hospital setting were gradually given small amounts of naltrexone diluted in water and were monitored to see how much they could withstand. They were given other drugs for some of the worst symptoms and were out of hospital in a couple of days.

Because naltrexone has a long half-life and a high binding affinity, it blocks your opiate receptors without making you high (because it's a full antagonist), you can eat naltrexone tablets daily in order to abstain from full agonists. There is also a long-lasting injection that you can take which slowly releases the naltrexone over a period of one month to prevent you from using.
 
I knew that the naloxone was designed to prevent IV use, but I thought it was also to prevent people on suboxone getting high off other opiates. I guess though, with bupe's high affinity, it'd prevent people from getting high off other opiates itself.
 
Naloxone has a very short half-life, it's only real use is to reverse the effects of overdose. Naltrexone is much better to prevent people from using.
 
opi8 said:
There is also a long-lasting injection that you can take which slowly releases the naltrexone over a period of one month to prevent you from using.

There was a controversial doctor in Sydney, I believe, who was doing this. There had been at least a couple of threads on here with people asking if they could safely cut the implant out themselves! Around the time that his methods became well known there were a few ABC radio/TV reports on it discussing the benefits and cons and also the fact that his licensing seemed to be somewhat off or something along those lines.
 
That is a legitimate concern and I've heard those stories too.

Those who are not yet in the firm grip of opiate addiction, take note - this is not a situation you want to wake up and find yourself in one day. It happens too easily, even to those who have seen the devastation opiate addiction can have to a life first hand and should know better.

There are legitimate doctors in Australia still doing this, including Professor Jon Currie, Director of Addiction Medicine at St Vincents in Melbourne. He's one of the "go to" doctors for the media, and I know people who have been treated by him. It is an effective method of treatment for the right people.
 
Sorry Opi8, i wasnt real clear...I ment to put it under and go back to sleep and it disolves very very slowly. I used to feel the effects more intensly if i did this. I awoke once 5 hrs later ( I poped it under tongue at 2am) at 7.30am and felt fantastic all day! The longer you take in the actual dissolving process the higher you fee...
 
Oh ok, whoops :)

I can't stand the taste of subs, I don't know if I could go to sleep with one under my tongue. After letting it sit there for as long as possible, I spit out all of the disgusting crap and find I get less headaches from suboxone when I spit it out than when I used to swallow it afterwards, I'm not sure if that's because of the extra miniscule amount of naloxone I'm getting when taken orally as opposed to sublingually, both ROA's are said to have very low bioavailability.
 
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