DXM noticeably improved my intelligence

[pharmakos]

i've heard (and i think i have personally experienced, but its hard to say for sure) that the primary cognitive impairment from chronic DXM use comes in the weeks after cessation.

 

[MeDieViL]

If i remember correctly memantine improves some markers of cognition and causes decline in some in healthy human subjects, overall there was cognitive decline tough at 20mg /day.

 

[melange]

dxm is awesome

 

[chemist2010]

Essentially every computer will malfunction at some point in its lifetime due to random disruptions in its circuitry. Problems created in this manner can sometimes be corrected by simply restarting the system. If the system is not given a chance to restart, these malfunctions will eventually build up resulting in a highly inoperable computer. From this analogy, I am led to hypothesize that a human might reap the same benefits of a restart that a computer does.


I perceive this theory to be fairly logical and rational. I am not an expert neurologist and I’m sure there are flaws with the explanation of my theory, but hope that it is in the general vicinity of something realistic.

This is very interesting stuff!

Are you referring to concentration steady state? Yes drugs fry your brain (damage cells) in the short term and theoretically once your Css returns to the normal concentration pre exposure everything should be OK.

You seem to be forgetting about DNA mutation, reverse transcriptase is highly error prone and missing the code of even a few amino acids causes all subsequent reproduction to be altered. This can lead to immature cells being produced and inert cells that reproduce essentially doing nothing to help the human body.

When this happens you can't "reboot" the system. You've altered the entire function of the cell and subsequent replications will be altered and prone to further alteration.

An easy example would be abusing a chemical that releases huge amounts of dopamine or serotonin...over time these cells are repeatedly damaged by the chemicals forcing them to release neurotransmitters when they do not want to in vivo and thus compensate by releasing less of the chemical to keep everything in balance. With constant abuse they die or function as caricatures of themselves even when chemical abuse is stopped. Low levels of dopamine hinders your movement and you develop parkinsons disease or some other neurological disorder like premature alzheimers.

Also if whatever chemicals youre taking and their metabolites mutate cells overtime youre at increased risk for cancer, and yeah then you can "reboot" the system if you catch it soon enough. If you don't you die and have to get another computer.

 

[klgdragon]

I don't have the time right now, but at some point soon I am going to have to write up an experience report for what happened the other day. In short, I had an extremely profound DXM experience along side an enormous amount of introspective revelations. Now I have done DXM in higher doses in the past for recreational purposes and my experiences then seem more just messed up than anything. Weeks of my low dose dxm experimenting peaked when i decided to take 300mg in the morning and then 150mg later in the afternoon. Due to tolerance I didn't expect going over my usual 300mg dose to be really noticeable but maybe it was the adderall i took earlier in the day that caused this to happen.
I was hanging out with a very close friend talking, feeling normal and then I progressively experienced more and more dissociative effects. The odd thing about the situation is that my mind was completely in tact but every nerve in my body felt extremely relaxed. My short term memory in turn was effected a little bit so my friend had to help me remember things that I was talking about. I felt a sense of dissociation that led me to several profound revelations that stuck with me into the next day. It was a very enlightening experience and sort of felt like my body was in the process of "resetting" itself as odd as it sounds.
The next day I wake up perfectly rested and full of life. My daily routine happened the same way as it always does, but on this particular my body perceived everything as new. I knew I had done these things countless times before but my body felt as if it were a completely new experience. Another effect was the enhanced color of everything. It was so indescribably vibrant! I felt like a completely new person looking forward to everything life had to offer me. That day I also cleared up a troubling situation with my significant other with ease due to my revelations I had the day before. For some reason these ideas connected us both in a deep way and our relationship of almost 2 years suddenly feels exponentially better.
Every aspect of that day was just as beautiful, as were the following days. I don't know how or why, but I can confidently say that that particular experience with dxm, although not any sort of unreasonable dosage, drastically changed my life for the better in so many ways. This experiment took such an unexpectedly pleasant turn which feeds my curiosity even more. simply miraculous!

 

[Novel Zephyr]

... And yeah, I guess everyone I know who did a lot of dxm is kinda stupid.

Oh really, now? Would you like to elaborate on what "a lot" and "stupid" are supposed to mean? I dare say that I may serve as a counterexample.

There is a free fulltext of a case study of cognitive deterioration induced by chronic DXM administration. Old, but indicative of clinical attitudes toward the effects of the more potent NMDA antagonists on humans

From that same text, I'd like to quote: "He confessed to frequent consumption of cough syrup, one bottle at a time, each bottle containing 1500 mg DM hydrobromide, 5000 mg guafenesin and 3.5 mg alcohol."

I'm confident that nearly everyone here is intelligent enough to recognize that the most significant difference between medicine and poison is dose. Considering the rather absurd dose being used in that case study, I feel as though it's irrelevant to the point I hope to make.


My DXM-Use History, in a Nutshell
------------------------------------
Despite nearly four years of use, I've only twice ever done more than 1200mg of DXM in one sitting (1800mg in each incident, once in Jan '08 and again in Nov '09, both of which involved bizarre circumstances), and I've likely used more than 720mg at once on fewer than a dozen occasions. From late summer of '07 to early spring of '08, I used roughly 720mg daily, in an effort to "reboot my brain", and feel that those doses were excessive, in retrospect. Since Nov '09, with two (920mg) exceptions, I haven't used more than 460mg in a day (most often merely 300mg/day) and have divided those amounts into at least three doses, over each 24 hour period, which have usually been separated by four hour intervals.


More Cons
--------------
My understanding of pharmacology leads me to conclude that whether 300mg/day (and possibly even 720mg/day) of DXM ought to be considered "destructive" depends entirely on how you define "damage." Despite my love for the drug, I can hardly imagine that depriving your neurons of the stimulation (which glutamate regularly provides) could go on chronically without causing atrophy; even if full-blown apoptosis doesn't occur (as I suspect is the case - which is to say that I believe that its damage, in normal recreational doses, is reversible), I would still anticipate a reduction in synaptic density. Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, the protein responsible for creation and maintenance of synapses, is produced (as I understand) in response to neurons' reception of excitatory neurotransmitters. Glutamate is excitatory, so chronically blocking it ought to result in reduced BDNF, which should consequently lead to reduced synaptic density and general cognitive impairment... make sense?


More Pros
-------------
HOWEVER, I also feel compelled to assert that there are features of central neurophysiology which are far more important than synaptic density. On a literally daily (and very often hourly) basis, I was obsessively haunted by intrusive and disturbing suicidal ideations, from roughly the age of 11 until my experimentation with psychedelics began at the age of 18. It began as a drug-free means of exercising dissociation, which was my method of coping with a severely dysfunctional setting at home. The level of dysfunction dropped to what I'd call "moderate", when I was about 15, but my psychological state continued to corrode. I had locked myself into a set of assumptions about the world and its ways of working which occasionally drove me into complete catatonia. Any sane caretakers (among whom my parents certainly were not) would have sought help for me, but my father was blatantly terrified of counselors and psychiatrists, so he left me to remedy my own issues, which lead me, before long, to DXM.


Conclusion
--------------
Hands down, without ifs, ands or buts, I believe that, in cases of people who resemble the state I experienced at age 17, the "damage" of avoiding such drastic measures as therapy with DXM would far outweigh any "damage" induced by loss of synaptic density. Despite that I feel unspeakably better than back then, I'd go so far as to say that it will still be appropriate for me, if stimulant therapy fails (my doctor switched me from Vyvanse to Concerta, yesterday, because my insurance won't cover the former... but, ya know, it's practically the same difference); participating on the Internet (which raised me... yes, I mean that in all seriousness - I see myself as raised by computers more so than by humans, and suspect that this is part of the reason I can hardly manage empathy without a dissociative) is almost literally the only nonobligatory act I can accomplish. Our ability to gauge some form of damage objectively, such as synaptic density loss, should not preclude us from acknowledging the possibility that our psyche possesses aspects which science has yet to quantify, and that intuition toward such matters (as well as how to treat them) may be the best guide available to some people.


CLIFFS:
- The only difference between medicine and poison is dose.
- Try to avoid forming catchall statements about whether any certain route of therapy is appropriate.

 

[melange]

this drug has been more positive to me than negative

and who isn't down with a drug that has been shown to be useful for treating brain ischemia?

 

[adder]

all it takes is one idiot to screw things up for everybody.

It's not one idiot, trust me. Also, although I don't find DXM effects to be worth taking it, I don't postulate "make DXM medications for prescription". I don't really care. It's a horrible enough drug for kids to find out themselves and if someone likes it, whatever, it's none of my business, I won't save the world.

When I was young, before I started taking codeine and morphine, I had a short episode with dextromethorphan. It's easily available in pills here. At first 150mg was fine to get me on 2nd plateau and I liked it as it was something I was looking for then - dissociation from the world for 2-3 hours, not giving a shit about what's going on. Low doses worked for me. I never did more than 450mg and that taken all at once gave me unpleasant effects. I never used it daily. I can honestly say I got addicted to it psychologically. At some point I realized I kept forgetting words. I knew what I wanted to say but I couldn't find a word for it. That's one thing concerning memory "improvements"...

And it wasn't only me. People keep forgetting words after using dextromethorphan. Luckily it wasn't chronic, at least in my case but I switched to opioids quite fast.

I've seen self-threating with DXM already. There was a case of one woman taking DXM daily for depression.

EDIT: I don't want to sound mean or something. I really see much more in NMDA antagonism but DXM doesn't seem to be the perfect drug with this effect as it has a spectrum of other effects.

 

[Gormur]

perhaps adderall+DXM = mania

And i know, at least, when i become manic from a drug combo it's usually the high-functioning type where i'm way more efficient at everything, including socializing and prioritizing.. so i naturally feel more intelligent

 

[klgdragon]

I really see much more in NMDA antagonism but DXM doesn't seem to be the perfect drug with this effect as it has a spectrum of other effects.

This right here. I'm not proposing DXM is perfect by any means. I am, however, saying that I know my body and can distinguish the positive changes I felt from placebo. Whether these are lasting effects I can't say right now. I do believe research in this area may lead to some interesting discoveries. I will be discontinuing this "experiment" relatively soon because I do feel as if, although therapeutic with short term use, continuous DXM use may cause changes in me that cross from positive enhancements into negative impairments. My conclusions formed thus far have been that this is definitely something that has benefited my life and does so in such a significant way that merits its deeper exploration.

 

[benzofan]

HEY, I want to try DXM (I can have easily)

I'm light opiates regular user (not too hard opiates like heroin, morphine...) just codeine (400mg) , tramadol (300g), sometimes hydrocodone ; medium dosage (40mg)

Is terms of effects how could you compare DXM to Opiates (or to benzo because I tried almost all benzo ) ?

Do you feel euphoria with DXM, do you feel speed or relaxed ???...

Needs basic info (even we are in we are in "advanced drug discission" (sorry), I don't want to create a thread for that point)

Is it good to mix DXM with an opiate or with a Benzo (valium = my favorite) or in an other way is it dangerous to do it ?

THANKS OF ANY ADVICES AND HAPPY 2011

 

[Mudeltakappa]

Is terms of effects how could you compare DXM to Opiates (or to benzo because I tried almost all benzo ) ?

Do you feel euphoria with DXM, do you feel speed or relaxed ???...

Needs basic info (even we are in we are in "advanced drug discission" (sorry), I don't want to create a thread for that point)

Is it good to mix DXM with an opiate or with a Benzo (valium = my favorite) or in an other way is it dangerous to do it ?

THANKS OF ANY ADVICES AND HAPPY 2011

DXM is nothing like opiates/opioids or benzos. Effects are *very* dose-dependant, more so than most drugs. I find 100 - 200 mg *can* be euphoric. It's a sort of speedy and lightly psychedelic feeling at those doses. Past 200 mg and DXM becomes a lot more "stoning," and the euphoria - for me at least, starts to disappear. My personal comparison for DXM isn't any other drug though... its THE FLU. I'm not a fan of the stuff except at low doses, and even then I'm not sure the nausea is worth it. That's just me though.

Mixing DXM with an opiate sounds particularly nauseating. As for benzos... a small dose of a benzo might be fine to "take the edge off" so to speak. I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that larger doses of benzos + DXM (or opiates + DXM for that matter) could lead to respiratory depression issues.

Read the William White's DXM FAQ (try google) if you haven't before. It has a wealth of information.

 

[benzofan]

DXM is nothing like opiates/opioids or benzos. Effects are *very* dose-dependant, more so than most drugs. I find 100 - 200 mg *can* be euphoric. It's a sort of speedy and lightly psychedelic feeling at those doses. Past 200 mg and DXM becomes a lot more "stoning," and the euphoria - for me at least, starts to disappear. My personal comparison for DXM isn't any other drug though... its THE FLU. I'm not a fan of the stuff except at low doses, and even then I'm not sure the nausea is worth it. That's just me though.

Mixing DXM with an opiate sounds particularly nauseating. As for benzos... a small dose of a benzo might be fine to "take the edge off" so to speak. I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that larger doses of benzos + DXM (or opiates + DXM for that matter) could lead to respiratory depression issues.

Read the William White's DXM FAQ (try google) if you haven't before. It has a wealth of information.

THANKS for all these very interesting infos

 

[pharmakos]

HEY, I want to try DXM (I can have easily)

I'm light opiates regular user (not too hard opiates like heroin, morphine...) just codeine (400mg) , tramadol (300g), sometimes hydrocodone ; medium dosage (40mg)

Is terms of effects how could you compare DXM to Opiates (or to benzo because I tried almost all benzo ) ?

Do you feel euphoria with DXM, do you feel speed or relaxed ???...

Needs basic info (even we are in we are in "advanced drug discission" (sorry), I don't want to create a thread for that point)

Is it good to mix DXM with an opiate or with a Benzo (valium = my favorite) or in an other way is it dangerous to do it ?

THANKS OF ANY ADVICES AND HAPPY 2011

DXM will be slightly reminiscent of opiates, but it is still really different. effects are a lot more mind-altering... the world will seem really different the first time you use a decent dose of DXM.

as far as mixing... DXM goes alright with benzos. they both impair your memory though so only do a small dose of a benzo. benzos will kill a lot of the mental effects of the DXM though...

DXM goes alright with traditional opiates. again, just use a low dose of opiates. this time its because DXM makes your opiates feel a LOT stronger. if you have your choice between codeine and hydrocodone you might want to take the hydro... codeine needs to be turned into morphine in your liver before i can get you high. DXM and codeine use the same liver enzyme, so your codeine will take a lot longer to fully hit you than hydro would.

do NOT do DXM with tramadol. you could have a seziure or die, from serotonin syndrome. tramadol is an opioid, not an opiate, meaning it does the same thing in a way but is also different.

also, you should have asked this over in the Psychedelic Drugs forum

 

[Gup]

If i remember correctly memantine improves some markers of cognition and causes decline in some in healthy human subjects, overall there was cognitive decline tough at 20mg /day.

That scares me a bit, as I was looking at memantine as a possible NMDA antagonist anti-depressant. Do you remember where you saw this information?

 

[queenscarlet88]

I understand what you are getting at. I admit that I can't make any scientific claims about this, just anectodal ones. I feel that an individuals definition of IQ is very subjective and that it could generally encompass many similar qualities. I really wish that studies could be done in regards to this though, because I definitely feel a lasting benefit from it. Its almost as if the constant nmda antagonism stimulated nerve growth that carries over even when you dont take it. I know that is a ridiculous claim and i have no proof, but just a hunch.

IQ is a well-defined metric. People dispute whether it measures anything worthwhile (mainly, people who score poorly on IQ tests ), but they do not dispute the "definition" of it. The Intelligence Quotient, insofar as I understand it, measures a mind's ability to identify patterns: specifically, the most most complex and -- for lack of a better word -- worthwhile patterns.

Schizophrenia often takes the form of a preoccupation with intricately-conceived, (apparently) internally consistent patterns which differ so radically from consensus reality as to be intolerable to society. I am not equating schizophrenia with IQ. Many stupid people become schizophrenic; the patterns they perceive are as false as the ones which intelligent schizophrenics perceive, but the stupid schizophrenic is lazy in his observations and clumsy in his stringing-together of these observations into patterns.

Why do I bring up schizophrenia? Because dual use of amphetamines and dissociatives may easily cripple your mind to the point of schizophrenia -- and stupid schizophrenia, at that! The brilliance you feel, the thought-patterns woven within your mind while you trip ... habitual drug abuse will scuff your mind so that it shines with little brilliance, even as it tangles those thought-patterns, ripping out great, indiscriminate hunks of thread and fabric along the way.

Do you want to be left a lurching relic, with nothing to show for your destruction aside from incoherent, faded memories of a couple of blissful hours here and there, hours imbued with an illusory feeling of "noticeably improved intelligence"? Your actions indicate that you do!

 

[klgdragon]

IQ is a well-defined metric. People dispute whether it measures anything worthwhile (mainly, people who score poorly on IQ tests ), but they do not dispute the "definition" of it. The Intelligence Quotient, insofar as I understand it, measures a mind's ability to identify patterns: specifically, the most most complex and -- for lack of a better word -- worthwhile patterns.

Schizophrenia often takes the form of a preoccupation with intricately-conceived, (apparently) internally consistent patterns which differ so radically from consensus reality as to be intolerable to society. I am not equating schizophrenia with IQ. Many stupid people become schizophrenic; the patterns they perceive are as false as the ones which intelligent schizophrenics perceive, but the stupid schizophrenic is lazy in his observations and clumsy in his stringing-together of these observations into patterns.

Why do I bring up schizophrenia? Because dual use of amphetamines and dissociatives may easily cripple your mind to the point of schizophrenia -- and stupid schizophrenia, at that! The brilliance you feel, the thought-patterns woven within your mind while you trip ... habitual drug abuse will scuff your mind so that it shines with little brilliance, even as it tangles those thought-patterns, ripping out great, indiscriminate hunks of thread and fabric along the way.

Do you want to be left a lurching relic, with nothing to show for your destruction aside from incoherent, faded memories of a couple of blissful hours here and there, hours imbued with an illusory feeling of "noticeably improved intelligence"? Your actions indicate that you do!

Very good post. I do understand the "brilliance while tripping" thing. like when i did shrooms. I babbled nonsense and cried because I knew the meaning of anything, then the next morning i almost found it a bit funny because those feelings did not last and my sitter told me some of the stuff i was saying lol.

My comment is that I have been off DXM for a month and really dont use adderall more then a couple times a month and must say the things i learned about myself and life while on my DXM experimentation have lasted. I truely feel that it opened my mind (maybe not standard definition "IQ") but I feel like such a better person having this lasting wisdom gained while on DXM.

This may not be the case with anyone, because drugs make people feel like they know everything, but in MY case the increased spatial thinking and emotional thinking, along with the different ways of looking at things has lasted even though I'm completely off DXM. Its really great!

 

[madswagga]

doubt it

 

[Sometrippydude]

I would like to re-open this thread. I have a Lyme disease co-infection which causes a whole host of physical/psychological problems, and dxm seems to temporarily cure all of them

It fixes in me
-Dopamine problems. I feel a lot less stressed, feel almost no cravings for food or drugs, and I have unparalleled motivation and drive the next day
-Brain oxygen level problems (im prone to meany horrible things like seizures and stroke, but this seems to steer me away from that direction. I no longer get mini-brain seizures in the days following a high dxm dose
-NMDA receptor problems.
-I get a massive herx "detox reaction" as if my body is suddenly able to identify toxins floating around that it couldnt see before. I have a feeling a large part of this is an increase in my immune system that is combating my illness.
-Im not sure which of these systems and problems are the intermediate "fixed" factors, but I just feel like im not sick anymore afterward. I can think like I used to again, even better maybe than before I got sick/started doing drugs. unlike others, I dont seem to have much extra memory problems, but maybe I just havnt noticed among the intense amount of positives.
-I loose depression (especially during the trip) to such an intense point that I feel a beautiful godly/universal presence within me that is so powerful it has made me cry... while in dxm land, I have to wipe tears from my eyes from this overwhelming sense of beauty that fills me. This might be rooted in neurotransmitters/neurological effects, though I have a feeling this spiritual sense of inner universal connection is something that will be rather difficult to quantify in molecular/biological terms for years. My intuition is that it has to do with the chakra/energy organ/spritual energies that western medicine has not yet "discovered".

However, this is with doses exceeding 1 gram. I usually do 1.2 to 1.5 grams for this type of experience/effect. Though this effect is MUCH weaker in me if not completely absent on 3rd plateu/lower experiences, I have not tried prolonged low doses over a period of a week or longer. I will soon and get back.

THIS IS NOT A PLECEBO EFFECT ON ME.
My parents have thought that i started doing stimulants or was suddenly completely cured after certain robotrips because of how "normal" I seemed for the first time in years. I no longer stutter, have hickups in my thought processes, or anything. Like someone else said, it seems to make my thoughts far less liner and more lateral. aka, I can consider more than one idea at the same time for complex tasks, and can switch to a different thought without abandoning the old one.

Noscapine is an nmda antagonist and has meany other properties that dxm has. It is also used as a cough supressant.
I have a theory that Noscapine which is about 8% of street heroin is the main reason addicts go back to it after kicking the habit (I have friends that have had problems over the years). While it may be directly addicting because of the effects, meany addicts that I have met allow themselves to get addicted again because they subtly feel more psychologically well after their first day back on it. Iboga and ibogane, one of the most powerful "anti-addictive" herbs is also an NMDA antagonist and has some similar neurological properties as noscapine and dxm.

I hope this helps someone out there. I made an account here just to re-boot this discussion.

Any thoughts on this people?

 

[pharmakos]

^ that is very interesting, keep us updated

i say try to cut down your doses though. the big peaks and crashes of high doses like that might end up making your issue worse in the long run. sustained low- to medium-doses are likely better imo.

here are some articles that support what you are doing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1531156

and from this http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/art...borne-diseases-and-neuropsychiatric-disorders :

Lyme borreliosis and other tick-borne infections are associated with a combination of inflammatory reactions and autoimmune symptoms. The proinflammatory cytokines associated with these infections increase indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase, which decreases serotonin and kynurenic acid, a neuroprotective glutamate antagonist. In addition, the cytokines increase the level ofquinolinic acid, an N-methyl d-aspartic acid (NMDA) agonist and neurotoxin, which contributes to the neurological and cognitive deficits seen in patients with tick-borne infections.21-23 This change may produce over-stimulation of hippocampal (NMDA) receptors leading to apoptosis and hippocampal atrophy. Hippocampal atrophy in the temporal lobes caused by NMDA overstimulation has been associated with depression and dementia.24 -

sounds like the DXM is counteracting the quinolinic acid induced excitotoxicity that is present in Lyme disease




keep in mind that this sounds more like a treatment than a cure. i don't think the DXM is going to kill off the pathogens that are causing your Lyme disease. =/