Conservatives question methadone maintenance (UK)

[PetSMiLE]

y dont they just leave people alone and totally legalize drugz

Regardless of whether that statement is right or wrong, true or false, it is simplistic viewpoints like that which make those in charge think that addicts take advantage of maintenance programs just to get legal highs.

I thought things were going in a better direction, moving towards governments accepting heroin maintenance... and now methadone is the problem?? There is no doubt kicking methadone is much more difficult than heroin but its long half-life stabilizes (former) addicts who would otherwise lead totally chaotic lives, and like Lacey k said is a great option for long-term addicts.

h a r m r e d u c t i o n people!!

 

[Diacetyl_Morphine]

A perfect example of why this wouldn't work is Russia. They have yet to allow SMT or MMT, not to mention the difficulty with needle exchanges, and they're crime rate from it is quite significant. Their attempts to get people off by restraining them has been an absolute failure. I think HAT would be quite successful if it was given more of a chance; however, since I do not forsee that happening anytime soon, and since buprenorphine doesn't work for a certain (relatively small) percentage of people, the only other option, besides attempting (with a high rate of relapse) cold turkey, is buprenorphine. In my experience, the rate of crime has certainly dropped from the people I know who have gone on MMT, and they've managed to hold down jobs, and return to a normal social life where their entire day isn't centered around copping and making sure they're not sick. Although I have a very love/hate relationship with methadone, I think I would probably be in a much worse situation had I never gone on it. This is absolutely absurd.

 

[Sentience]

I would like to apologize for something....I was thinking only about people who are trying to kick the habit. I just assumed that everyone who gets treatment wants to ween off treatment and just be drug free....I wasnt thinking about people who continue to relapse and want something that is just enough to keep them stable and able to work as a maintenance program for years/decades/life.

I believe that Methadone is the inferior drug anyway you look at for detox. Even heroin is better for a quick tapering program than Methadone. I think this is the source of misunderstanding here. I dont think there is anything wrong with a long term program if you realize exactly what you are getting yourself into.


However, for the defenders of corporations, selfish individualism and 'you and yours'....fuck you. I wont apologize for that part.

 

[Howard B Huge]

I did a 10 year stint on MMT from 1993-2003

I eventually tapered and stayed off of opiates for a year, but relapsed and was using opiates steadily from the middle of 2004 until recently.

I went back to the Methadone clinic late last year, but having to go thru the hassle of trying to regain my 6 takehomes per week, which would have taken a few years, the time and expense of traveling to the clinic on a daily basis, the clinic politics and drama made me leave after 3 months.

During my previous stint on MMT, I lived about 5 minutes from the clinic, so it was no big deal to go there on a daily basis and earn my takehomes, but I now live about 30 minutes away from the clinic, so going there every day got old quick.

I recently got on subutex when the more affordable generic version became available.

Now I just visit my sub Dr. and the Pharmacy once a month and it costs me less money than MMT, especially when factoring in the cost of gas to travel daily to the clinic, not to mention the time and not having to hassle with clinic politics and drama.

IMO, Methadone should be made more easily available to addicts after they have shown that they are responsible, such as 3-6 months of clean UA's and a few other requirements.

Methadone is an inexpensive drug and it would cost far less to basically give it to addicts for free instead of having some people commit crimes and to sell themselves sexually to support their opiate habits.

I was always a pill user but did dabble with IV'ng Dilaudid right before I got back into treatment.

As far as subs, even the generics are bit expensive - about $3.75 per 8mg. pill here in the US

The problem with Methadone is that higher doses do make people unmotivated and nod off.

People on MMT tend to chase the opiate high and end up on too high of a dose and suffer from the side-effects mentioned above.

As for subutex, I can't tell the difference between 8mg. and 24 mg. whereas with Methadone, a drop in dose from say, 75mg. to 70 mg. will make most people uncomfortable for several days and a rise of 5mg. can turn you into an unmotivated zombie overnight.

The subs don't make me unmotivated of nod off.

I just feel normal on subs and much more motivated than when I was on MMT
I had no desire or cravings to use while maintaining on either.

IMO, Subs are a better choice than Methadone for a variety of reasons.

I'm not a liberal, more like a libertarian, but government, whether here in the US or elsewhere should make these options available to opiate addicts at a very low cost and make them more easily accessible as this type of preventative treatment would save money, lower crime, and save lives.

Having to go to a Methadone clinic every day for months before getting a single, weekly take home is a detriment to most addicts and the clinic hours don't work for people with jobs, especially those that work nights.

The hours are even a detriment for people who work 9-5 as having to go to a Methadone clinic before work can take up to a couple of hours, depending how close/far the clinic is from where you live/work.

Just my random .02 from someone who has been on both of these opiate treatment options.

 

[Howard B Huge]

I am 110% in favor of stealing from the rich to give to the poor. In fact, I dont think we take nearly enough from them.

Do the very wealthy actually earn their money with their labor? No. Not for the most part.....maybe some actors or artists or screen writers or sports celebrities do, but the very very wealthy are not getting paid for their labor...that is not where the REAL money comes from....they are profiting off the labor of others. Their money is increased through practices of usury and exploitation, paying their workers less than the value of their labor, exporting jobs to third world countries and STILL not paying even THEM a living wage. They pull scams shifting money around, letting some of their subsidiaries tank along with their debts while reaping the full benefits as their other companies stocks are through the roof....and they know this. Its all insider trading. With the person hood of corporations, individuals lose most of their accountability and we end up handing out poor peoples tax money to already profitable industries like the oil companies....record profits and we need to increase their subsidies to keep prices down? Give me a fucking break.

If you ask me, I think we should just throw them all in prison and take ever last dime, and put them to work in a prison steel yard.....I am not talking about people who made a lot of money with their own labor and skill, I am talking about people who profit via usury and exploitation, which is how most of the richest 00.0001% got where they are and stay there.


And yes, we can take that money and give it to drug rehabs and other clinics...I mean, why are conservatives ok with using tax dollars for prisons, but rehabs which are cheaper are a waste of tax payers money? Its absurd.


I personally dont like how Methadone makes me feel, and I have friends who tell me that tapering on methadone is harder than tapering off heroin, but I believe these decisions should be between doctors and patients, not law makers looking to save a buck by screwing the poor and those who need help.

Every "Rich" person I have ever known has worked their ass off and made lot's of sacrifices to become "rich"

They pay most of the taxes that subsidize numerous social service programs and pay well over 50% of their income into taxes.

Punishing people for working hard, contributing to society, creating jobs and increasing tax revenues makes zero sense.

Society would collapse within months.

Not every "rich" person made their money by exploiting other people.

That's the exception, not the rule.

The media never talks about the person who scrimps and saves for years and years to start a business, works 12-18 hours a day for years, risks everything, works hard, makes personal sacrifices, etc...to become "rich"

I've seen refugee's from Viet Nam come to the US who spoke very little English, yet they worked hard and sacrificed and became "rich"

Why should they have to support people who choose to sit on the couch all day watching TV?

Where's the fairness in that?

You can't mandate equality.

And people who work will be payed for what they are worth to their employer.

Anyone who has ever ran a business knows that the concept of a "living wage" is a fantasy.

If you own a small business with 20 FT employee's, and your net yearly profit is 75k per year, what happens when government mandates that you have to give your employee's a $1.00 per hour raise?

Do the math. You either have to lay people off (bad) raise the price(s) for your product/service (bad) or go out of business. (Again, bad)

While a small percentage of people are victims of circumstances beyond their control, most "poor" people are in their situation by the choices they have made in life.

The few "very rich" people I've met/known became that way by hard work, sacrifice and by providing a valuable product/service that betters society.

Off topic, but again, my random .02 cents.

BTW, I've tapered off of 10 years of daily Methadone maintanance and it can be a long process, but not painful if done right.

Most people try to go by a set schedule instead of going by what is right for them and everyone is different.

 

[Howard B Huge]

Is there ever going to be a nation which accepts that opiates are used by some to treat MENTAL pain and suffering? Why must it be a crime to use the only medicines I have found that work to make me a happy functional member of society?

My Sub Dr. is an advocate of treating depression with Subs and has patients on sub maintanance for that very reason.

Usually a small dose of 2mg. or so.

I'm one of those people who just feels depressed without opiates.

I've been put on numerous anti-depressant meds and nothing worked or alleviated my depression except for one thing - opiates.

I will likely be on some type of opiate maintenance for the rest of my life, probably subutex.

I don't get high from them - I just feel normal on them and not depressed.

Hopefully, the cost of generic subs will come down in the future.

 

[Howard B Huge]

People agree to things they wouldnt choose. Do you want to work in a sweat shop 80 hours a week or do you want to be starve or be arrested for vagrancy? Is that a choice? Maybe. If we give the banksters an ultimatum, to contribute to society or else, they can choose not to and get arrested and have their assets seized, or they can choose to pay their taxes....so I guess paying for taxes to pay for methadone is completely voluntary. People are just signing up to do it....literally.

Most people have more choices than to either work 80 hours a week in a sweat shop or starve and be arrested.

Those are false choices and not a valid argument.

We can agree that taxes should be spent on treatment such as low cost Methadone/Sub treatment instead of putting people in jail as society as a whole would benifit.

 

[DeadheadChemistry]

This is complete crap, but I knew it was coming. If it is going on in the UK it is on it's way to America in no time at all. You have frustrated family members of addicts coming forward against Methadone because they see their friends/family falling into the Methadone daze and living this "half-life" the article speaks of. It was only a matter of time before this got to become a huge issue. The problem is, some people DO need Methadone to get off Heroin or even painkillers. Yes, the number of people who actually manage to quit drugs completely is extremely low, but it is going to be FAR lower if you take one of the addicts options off the table. The vast majority of addicts are aware of bupenorphine and in the recent past suboxone has become the first choice to try and get people off opiates before trying Methadone. The problem is, while Suboxone is a wonderful breakthrough drug it is not enough for some people. You take Methadone off the table for addicts and you will see crime rise significantly, addiction rise significantly, and you will see families that thought Methadone was bad BEGGING to have it back because of what their loved ones are doing without it. I don't know what can be done to convince politicians and other people in high places that Methadone is needed but it was only a matter of time before the conservatives decided to start meddling with drug addicts trying to get their lives back together. A bunch of suits who have nothing but statistics thinking they know more about addiction than doctors and addicts themselves. It's pathetic. You can't look at a chart and say "Hey, look only __% of Methadone users actually get off drugs" without looking at the deeper problem. Heroin is a powerful drug, and whether people want to admit it or not there will ALWAYS be people who just do not have the willpower to completely get clean. Methadone gives people a chance to live life and hold down a job, even if it may not be a full life. Sometimes a half-life is better than living in the gutter.

 

[Shambles]

After 12 years of Labour's lies, corruption, and general arseholery, it's decimation of human rights, privacy and other such fripperies, and Britain's rapid decent into a virtual police state, it's reassuring to see that the Tories haven't changed even a teensy lil bit and are still the vile, hypocritical and ignorant bunch o' fascist cunts they always were. And there was us hoping that having to share power with the Liberals may have reigned in their more rabidly right-wing "Not my problem so fuck you" tendencies just a smidgeon 8)

Wonder what the plan is for all those addicts who are refused methadone? I'm sure they'll just tug their forelocks, doff their caps and quit all by themselves - wouldn't want to go wasting taxpayers money, and methadone can cost up to tuppence ha'penny a day which could be far better spent on an aspirin for a pensioner or summat. Unless they're suggesting that inpatient rehab is cheaper than a methadone script... surely even they aren't that stooopid? Of course they are - they're Conservative MPs

 

[Kanga]

Just took my MMT dose right now, waiting for it to kick in, was like 24 hours overdue.

But anyways, like laceyk said, two thirds of their addicts are in treatment, whether it be through clinics, rehabs, or personal doctors, that is amazing. Could you imagine that in the US?

And what sort of "half-lives" do MMT users live? I've never had Methadone prevent me from doing anything that I want to or need to (unless of course I miss a dose, then omg please kill me thanks.) I'm able to contribute to my family and society while being on MMT.

All the anti-depressants they are putting every kid on these days who gets sad once in a while are the things that are going to make people unable to contribute, and live half-lives. We have no idea what the long-term effects of these are on ANYONE, let alone our youth who's brains are STILL DEVELOPING but under the influence of these drugs. I hope these people don't turn into emotionless zombies, and remain safe!

 

[Kanga]

y dont they just leave people alone and totally legalize drugz

My first day in months back at BL, please don't tell me this is what it's turned into...

 

[FractalStructure]

I think its kinda like:

When Heroin was made, it was created as a "cure" for morphine addiction. Diacetylmorphine ended up being more addictive than morphine. Then, comes methadone, which I believe is more addictive than H. Methadone has a much "heavier" feel to it (then again, I never used a needle), and felt like a "harder" drug, makes me nauseous alot more easily, and basically has every sign of just... being a more powerful substance.

Is this done on purpose? I hope not. I think most people know that an opiate is an opiate is an opiate. I think the people who decided to dispense methadone just decided to create a stigma, where methadone= good and heroin= bad. They knew either way you're just trying to agonize the mu-opioid receptor, and sure methadone has a longer half life, blahblahblah.

I wonder how buprenorphine fits into all of it, actually.

 

[FractalStructure]

My first day in months back at BL, please don't tell me this is what it's turned into...

Unfortunately I think the same thing sometimes (my BL use has dwindled), but lets not forget the daily "Can I rail Xanax" threads....

 

[flacky]

^ Well, I like to think of it this way: while seeing stupid kids posting is really disconcerting, it does mean that we're giving those who need the most advice the advice that they need.

 

[Eight0Eight]

If my Meth is taken away, I would go back to heroin - I fucking hate bupe, and I'm never going back to it.

 

[WhoKahSmknKatapila]

Do you honestly think that heroin use is safer than methadone use, keeping in mind 100% of the people on heroin maintinance inject it? The few places there is heroin maintinance (or where it is being studied for possible normalcy I believe), the amount of people that die from overdoses in the program is somewhere around 10% or above I believe. 10% of people on methadone do not die from it. If they did, we'd all be on buprenorphine.

great point but i am skeptical of the 10% as it seems high. if it is actually that high than yeah great fucking point.

 

[flacky]

Err, IIRC the death rate was zero due to on-site medical staff.

 

[Khadijah]

There was about 1000 overdoses, and NONE of them died. Every single one of them got revived and was fine becuz they had staff there to help them and prevent the deaths. I already said that when DM was posting that shit earlier in the thread when i replied to him, you are correct flacky.

The few places there is heroin maintinance (or where it is being studied for possible normalcy I believe), the amount of people that die from overdoses in the program is somewhere around 10% or above I believe.

So, for any of yall who didnt catch on to the facts yet--WRONG. Nobody died. Not one single fuckin person. thats pretty amazing if you ask me, and just goes to show how safe it IS when its carried out in the right way. (I aint being a dick to you Dex, I am just pointing it out clearly to the ppl on here who aint so quick on the up take )

Yea, for all the people saying it aint safe, just remember. The rate of death was ZERO PERCENT folks....NOBODY DIED! Just like in real life, people overdosed, but unlike real life on the streets or outside of a facility like the ones in the studies, they ALL lived becuz of this program, so obviously at the VERY least its workin from the "preventing death" point of view....

 

[donnie080208]

yeah, just logically 10% fatal overdoses is just way too high. there are no real negatives to giving addicts heroin, its all political and "social engineering". junkies like imigrants/single mums etc.. are all scape goats for the ills of society and politicians allways need/like to make work for themselves.

 

[Pythagoras]

The land of confusion

this will never happen its just the tories drumming up support off the "blue-rinse brigade" middle classes. some comments from the u.s.a and elsewhere on BL amuse me, as they think the U.K. has some enlightened drug policy with regards diamorphine scripts. This is certainly not the case and the amount of addicts out of the 350,000(ha,ha figure imo) that get goverment funded heroin on tap is less than 700 patients i believe. the only real choices for maintenance here are meth and buprenorphine(luckily suboxone is not prescribed)

Slight clarification - the trials for some of the worst Heroin use in the UK, managed through the GP and with the support of the Police DID work by all [pe-arranged measures. The trial was interuppted for non-clinical reasons (ie - the Sun tolf their version). There are still a minortiy og H users prescribed diemorphine ampoules (very few due to need for home office licence). At the end of the trial even the police were positive - one could hatdly ask for a more ringing endoursement.

The above story has been confused and conflated with the fact the the UK use diamorphine (heroin) in palliative care on a widespread basis, though usually limited to the last 5-7 days of life. It had until recently been the strongest med available (though I believe (?) fetanyl is now available for BT pain) - - - - - - - - - -so YES very large number of scripts written for last few days of palliaitive care (unchanged), but no....only tiny numbers of adicts scripted diamorphine ampoules - and due to stay that way thanks to the combined wisdom of the UKs gutter press.

My advice, go and live in a developing country with nice beaches and an open minded approach to drug addiction....they're out there but I was told we can't name names.

MENS AGITAT MOLEM

PYTHAGORAS