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Medical Heroin Works to Beat Opioid Addiction

I was thinking this over last night and came to one conclusion that I think all rational minds should be able to agree with. No one should have to pay for someone else's rehab, fuck that. However, heroin should not be illegal. It seems evident that most of the problems assotiated with heroin use is with it being illegal and readily available, which would then make it obviously cheaper too. You can only go so far to treat people, and that's only if they want help. Make heroin legal just like alcohol and go from there, if anywhere...at best offering it to taper off of it, in rehab. And shit, perhaps alcoholics should be given alcohol to taper on, although the half-life is so short and gabanergic traquilizer will do the trick just fine.

If heroin was legal you wouldn't need to ever read absurd articles like this or have rediculous arguments on something that can't be solved. People that die from overdoses knew the risks, but they partook anyways. The fact that some people WILL die, and as some have already pointed out..in diamorphine maintinance even...shows how inherant that risk is. I do not want to fork over a bunch of my money to pay for other people to get high all day and "not want to die"... A lot of us hate life all the time too, but we don't make you pay for us to be amused.

Let's cut down drastically on crime, disease, economic hardship, and yes even death.

RE-legalize heroin.
 
^Agreed, only we should legalize all drugs, every single one. Nobody benefits by them being illegal, oh, other than the politicians and drug cartels...
 
In a previous post I said I would sign a binding contract, obviously many don't know me here being new and I was joking,sarcasm I'm just saying thats how desperate I am, I've been IV'ing subs for the past 2 weeks almost and its made things a llittle better than eating 32mg a day and I actually feel as if I get more out of a smaller dose iv'd. However I have tried mmt, bmt, cold turkey in a filthy fucking jail, I am almost at a breaking point, I am young have severe back issues as well which prevent me from doing alot of stuff I love and am watching what should be my life, pissed away because methadone clinics destroy you and bupe no matter how I try to ingest it does nothing, for me beside block other drugs and keep me from being sick partially even at 32 mg I feel like fucking shit.

I am seriously considering moving to Switzerland or Canada if it is possible to get into one of these clinics. I relapsed last night shot a bundle at once took 4 bars and two somas bars and honestly hoped I wouldn't wake up. I cannot take this bullshit mmt bmt. I like the drugs recreationally, but with alll of these lortab and roxy 30 addicts bullshitting tolerances and making up lies, clinics just don't trust you anymore.

Is it possible to move to one of these countries and receive heroin treatment? I'm worried about my life, getting bacteria born diseases, getting arrested again, and having to live in the agony I feel ever day gets worse and I become more depressed. If I had the money I'd buy as much dope as possible and ween myself off of it, but there again arrests etc etc.

Would someone answer my question though? Could I move to one of these countries and receive treatment. I am not a 1-2 bag im fucked up im a 1-2 100mcg fet patch and 2-3 bundle a day kinda guy thats what I could afford and when I could afford more I'd do it. Now I just want away from it.

I want to look at the other people that walk by and think "hey I wish I could be like him without having to drive, go cop, shoot, and then worry about how I am going to get money to stay high or "hey i have to take medicine so I don't seizure and puke my guts out in your restaurant without subs, yet cold sweat and feel depressed the whole time."

Honestly this is more like a rant because I am totally fucking losing it over this shit. I wish I would just get meds for back kill two birds with one stone but no bible-belt god-complex doctor would script someone like me something strong enough to kill the pain and combat wds.

sorry for the rant i just truly am struggling and I am DEAD SERIOUS ABOUT THE AVAILABILITY TO THESE CLINICS it would be better for someone like me I leave my using friends behind, get help, and go somewhere new to try and get my life back together. Please someone has to know this.
I know I said id been iving subs but I couldnt take feeling like shit anymore so I laid off 2 days its been a while now since a relapse but fuck.
 
As far as I know, these clinics only take people that have failed at other types of maintenance and have been dependent 5 or maybe it's 10 years, and maybe some other guidelines too.
 
You have to prove that you'll really kill yourself first if you haven't been using 10 years. I make the list. How fucked.
 
I unfortunately make the list too Dex I've been bouncin' back and forth for the last few years, and I almost hand my hand amputated recently, from missing really bad when i was fucked up in bathroom stall booting in a bathroom stall with preloaded rigs at STS9 in DC. I've been iv/hard/powder cocaine and iv/oral/rectal desperation (not a big fan of snorting opes) opiate addict since I was 14 years old I got my first shot of by a premed college chick I sold blow to back then in an ampule and my world was changed forever. Inpatient/outpatient rehab for over 3 maybe 4 years total (edit this is not continuous this is a conservative estimate of none of which were forced but me myself at the age of 16 years ago telling my folks "mommy im scared, dont be scared baby thats just daddy do his work". But good news is due to certain connection I might actually be inserted into one of these clinics I will try to get back with details.


I just sent you a novel of a message as well about, Pavement, DexterMeth about something you said on another thread you posted on, but my pathetic noob status as a greenlighter doust naught alloweth for thy to message they. however thoust should you in turn message me that would work and shimmering crystals shall fill thys um....just pm puh-liease right?
 
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dankstersauce said:
I think it has potential but it won't ever get passed into law. At least as a maintenance drug. Methadone is cheaper and works good enough. As far as the general public is concerned methadone is already a dirty word, so I can't even imagine the public outrage.

I could maybe see this as a way to get people to 'detox', like I know more junkies would attempt to enter rehab if they received heroin for a 3-5 day detox and then were switched to methadone.

The whole point is to get people into treatment, not to keep them strung out on dope forever. And if my memory serves correct the majority of people on medical heroin maintenance eventually lower and stabilize their dose and switch to bupe or 'done. And there are tons of forgotten people in society who would never enter rehab or have given up on the traditional treatment options. So if it can help save lives do it up.

And these people should be taking their doses at a clinic so if they OD, a nurse or doctor can take the appropriate action. But IMO it should just be a detox thing, 5 days max and switch them to methadone. Treatment centers would be overflowing and even if only a small percentage of people actually get clean it'll still be worth it.
Click to expand...

This program has worked successfully in England for many years now. The heroin addicts receive drug stipends from the government periodically to offset crime and disease. Statistics show a marked decrease in both of the aforementioned variables.

This successful program will never be implemented in the USA, thanks to capitalist bureaucracy.

There is simply too much money to be made from the legal and illegal sale and importation/exportation of opium.

Greedy investors on Wall St., powerful foreign leaders and even corrupt American politicians who are above the LAW, cash in while people all over the world suffer from the pitfalls of this complex dynamic.

The poppy is a hardy abundant plant that thrives almost anywhere, yet millions of people all around the world are denied a fair chance at a dignified existence due to the insane laws that prevent them from from having proper access to it. Its use in the Healthcare Industry is paramount. You can't say that about Cocaine or Marijuana. Those two drugs have very little use there and can be reasonably abstained from. Studies have shown that opiates can actually alter chromosomes, which leaves the user predisposed to its use, unlike Cocaine and Marijuana.

I would even dare to say that the #1 reason we are fighting in Afghanistan is for land control, and all that good god-damned opium. If the US doesn't grab control now of Afghanistan, then the Russians could control it or the Arabs could and then they would exploit it. No No No... we can't let those people have control of that huge cash-cow.

Look at the ever increasing drug trend that is Heroin. That is Morphine. That is Codeine. It is the most popular drug in the world. With legal and illegal uses it will continue to spin out of control and further complicate matters without some legalization for those who have become addicted to it. Those people need help and an alternative to the current programs that are unfair and inadequate.
 
phrozen said:
I think the whole point is to allow people to quit on their own terms, all while putting them in contact with the people that can help them along the way. The goal of methadone maintenance, and heroin maintenance, is to reduce the harm caused by an addiction to an illicit drug. And there are countless studies showing that both work, with heroin probably working better than methadone.

Providing it just for detox doesn't make sense from a pharmacological or psychological point of view. Simply put, its half-life is too short and it's too euphoric.


I'm a little surprised by how some people, here out of all places, are against it. I guess this is what needles exchanges, and methadone maintenance, were up against at first.
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Wonderfully stated and so true. In my studies I have noticed that heroin users will eventually distance themselves from the drug. Even if they have an endless source. Just like smokers find a way to quit, heroin users will find a way faster or more often because of the heavier side effects.
 
ranunky said:
The drug is less likely to be abused, he said, because the naloxone would block the opiate effect of bupronorphine if the drug were injected.
Click to expand...

I understand that this was the idea, but it's absolute bullshit. It may reduce it, as I think IV subutex is better, but it does not eliminate it.
 
I know tho , that times that i copped a brick of straight fire to myself, and just could shoot as much fucking dope as i wanted to whenever i wanted, i would wake up the next day and be like DAM......I dont even WANT to shoot up right now! And i would wait a few hours after gettin up , wait until i was actually sick again to get high...And that availibility, the access to good dope all the time, kind of takes away that chase....cuz its there, you CAN have it, and it makes it easier to focus on other shit. You CAN get that "last" good high. and just like anything good, too much of it, you get sick of it.
Click to expand...
Hit the nail on the head! This is true of most drugs that have addictive tendencies. Think about it. Good post Lacey:)
 
The main thing is to allow people to live life with a degree of dignity. I know that some of those that are helped will abuse the help. This does not mean that help should be withheld for all.
 
I for one do not believe in full legalisation of any of the aforementioned drugs; however I do believe in decriminalisation. The difference being that the drugs aren't made available ubiquitously and can only be obtained via the correct processes and procedures. Trafficking or drug diversion should still be a crime with maximum penalties. Specialist doctors should be able to treat people of addiction using either substitutes or the drug itself in a safe and secure environment. No one will argue against the idea that the war on drugs has been a costly failure with almost 90% of inmates imprisoned, based on drug related crime. Not to mention the money spent on trying to control the problem in the first place, and the lives that are literally destroyed in the fight aka Colombia. One tenth the money spent on fighting drugs would be enough to divert drug related problems from the justice system into the medical system where it belongs. Wanting to get high and drug addiction is not a crime, it is a medical problem.
 
I just cant believe that the "true" cost of smack is only around $6000 - $7000 per year, versus the prices on the black market which can blitz through that in a couple of weeks if you are really caning it. fucked up what we go through that we dont really need too...
and yet the average alchoholic can still wander down the local bottle o and get his poison at bargain basement prices.
 
Hell, hook me up with some Heroin treatment. Methadone hasn't done jack for me in 2 years. And Bupenorphine didn't work EVER. Of course this will never happen in the United States. It's basically legalizing drugs. God forbid we open our minds for a moment and look into the positive effects it could have.
 
Dan Angress, MD

I've been frequenting this site for a good number of years and there's plenty of good information here. Kudo's to the folks that keep the website going on a day-to-day basis.

At the top of this thread, I saw the mention of a particular medical doctor by the name of Dan Angress. He expressed concern about the use of opioid maintenance... which , over the years, has proven to be pretty darn successful.

Dr. Angress, in my opinion, is far from a member of the healing community. For decades, he has operated a "treatment center" that "specializes in the treatment of the prescribing professional". In other words, he rounds-up doctors that have been implicated in using or drinking even the slightest bit, and he hold these guys "hostage" in his little "program" with the explicit threat that he will turn them over to the medical board for license revocation if they fail "to go to any lengths" to maintain recovery and sobriety. Typical 12-step, unsubstantiated dogma.

The only options he offers are 12-step, faith-based, total-abstinence programs. His typical "treatments" last 4-6 months (essentialy inpatient) and he mandates a 5-year "after-care" program that consists of 12-16 AA meeting per month and drug tests that never seem to stop. In a nutshell, he's setting these folks up for failure.

Why?

Simply because it they "slip", they're back to his program again for another couple of months. (Read Dollar signs!!!) Those docs will do ANYTHING to keep their license to practice and Dr Dan knows it too!

Dr Angress isnt the only charlatan engaged in such shenanigans. He learned from the MASTER of coerced treatment: Dr Doug Talbott.

Dr Talbot operated a little clinic in Atlanta for impaired physicians. It was 12-step/abstenance based (and the wanted $5000 up front before you could even walk in the door). EVERYONE who went to Talbott's clinic for a "4-Day assessment" ended up staying 6 months.. or more. The sadistic Dr Talbot even had T-shirts printed up for the newbees that said, "Im here for a 4-day assessment".

FYI, Dr Talbot was eventually sued successfully for false imprisonment and I suspect that more of the same is coming down the pipes for Dr Angress and perhaps the "good folks" at the Farley Center in Virginia, another American Gulag for doctors that just happen to become addicted to percocet, or happen to test positive for weed. Yup.. these folks are being sent to treatment for 4 months... away from their jobs and family and then subsequently subjected to 5 years of AA meetings, counseling sessions, and humiliating witnessed urine tests... just because they tested positive for mary jane.

Its time that impaired professionals were given the TRUE story about ALL off their treatment options... including moderation management... and including opioid maintenance.

These smiling "doctors" in the "treatment profession" are truly a disgrace to the healing profession. Its time they THEY need to be held accountable for the ways that they have mistreated their fellow professionals... and all for the love of a dollar.

I hope that the state medical boards and PHP's will begin to seriously investigate the behavior of these treatment programs.

Even impaired professionals deserve to be informed of ALL their treatment options.

Happy Trails,
DrWild
 
So for under 10k I can supply myself for the year with some pure heroin? It's not fair! it's so hard to quit and just the cost alone is what gets most people. I'm sure most of us would do just fine if we had it like that. Maybe I should freeze myself and see what the future holds! But seriously how is it so cheap? You figure running through 2 bundles a day will run you about 73k well for me around 60k but still that is insane amount of money to be blowing through for drugs, yet we can all justify it. :sighs:
 
stigup said:
So for under 10k I can supply myself for the year with some pure heroin? It's not fair! it's so hard to quit and just the cost alone is what gets most people. I'm sure most of us would do just fine if we had it like that. Maybe I should freeze myself and see what the future holds! But seriously how is it so cheap? You figure running through 2 bundles a day will run you about 73k well for me around 60k but still that is insane amount of money to be blowing through for drugs, yet we can all justify it. :sighs:
Click to expand...

Buprenorphine is a lot cheaper, considering your tolerance goes down, not up.

I only use about $45 worth of buprenorphine per year.

DrWild said:
I've been frequenting this site for a good number of years and there's plenty of good information here. Kudo's to the folks that keep the website going on a day-to-day basis.

At the top of this thread, I saw the mention of a particular medical doctor by the name of Dan Angress. He expressed concern about the use of opioid maintenance... which , over the years, has proven to be pretty darn successful.

Dr. Angress, in my opinion, is far from a member of the healing community. For decades, he has operated a "treatment center" that "specializes in the treatment of the prescribing professional". In other words, he rounds-up doctors that have been implicated in using or drinking even the slightest bit, and he hold these guys "hostage" in his little "program" with the explicit threat that he will turn them over to the medical board for license revocation if they fail "to go to any lengths" to maintain recovery and sobriety. Typical 12-step, unsubstantiated dogma.

The only options he offers are 12-step, faith-based, total-abstinence programs. His typical "treatments" last 4-6 months (essentialy inpatient) and he mandates a 5-year "after-care" program that consists of 12-16 AA meeting per month and drug tests that never seem to stop. In a nutshell, he's setting these folks up for failure.

Why?

Simply because it they "slip", they're back to his program again for another couple of months. (Read Dollar signs!!!) Those docs will do ANYTHING to keep their license to practice and Dr Dan knows it too!

Dr Angress isnt the only charlatan engaged in such shenanigans. He learned from the MASTER of coerced treatment: Dr Doug Talbott.

Dr Talbot operated a little clinic in Atlanta for impaired physicians. It was 12-step/abstenance based (and the wanted $5000 up front before you could even walk in the door). EVERYONE who went to Talbott's clinic for a "4-Day assessment" ended up staying 6 months.. or more. The sadistic Dr Talbot even had T-shirts printed up for the newbees that said, "Im here for a 4-day assessment".

FYI, Dr Talbot was eventually sued successfully for false imprisonment and I suspect that more of the same is coming down the pipes for Dr Angress and perhaps the "good folks" at the Farley Center in Virginia, another American Gulag for doctors that just happen to become addicted to percocet, or happen to test positive for weed. Yup.. these folks are being sent to treatment for 4 months... away from their jobs and family and then subsequently subjected to 5 years of AA meetings, counseling sessions, and humiliating witnessed urine tests... just because they tested positive for mary jane.

Its time that impaired professionals were given the TRUE story about ALL off their treatment options... including moderation management... and including opioid maintenance.

These smiling "doctors" in the "treatment profession" are truly a disgrace to the healing profession. Its time they THEY need to be held accountable for the ways that they have mistreated their fellow professionals... and all for the love of a dollar.

I hope that the state medical boards and PHP's will begin to seriously investigate the behavior of these treatment programs.

Even impaired professionals deserve to be informed of ALL their treatment options.

Happy Trails,
DrWild
Click to expand...

Yeah, I would never practice medicine in the US because of bullshit like this.

retortme said:
I for one do not believe in full legalisation of any of the aforementioned drugs; however I do believe in decriminalisation. The difference being that the drugs aren't made available ubiquitously and can only be obtained via the correct processes and procedures. Trafficking or drug diversion should still be a crime with maximum penalties. Specialist doctors should be able to treat people of addiction using either substitutes or the drug itself in a safe and secure environment. No one will argue against the idea that the war on drugs has been a costly failure with almost 90% of inmates imprisoned, based on drug related crime. Not to mention the money spent on trying to control the problem in the first place, and the lives that are literally destroyed in the fight aka Colombia. One tenth the money spent on fighting drugs would be enough to divert drug related problems from the justice system into the medical system where it belongs. Wanting to get high and drug addiction is not a crime, it is a medical problem.
Click to expand...

There will still be crime and violence if you don't fully legalize drugs, which is why decriminalization wouldn't really work IMO.
 
Dan Angress, MD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been frequenting this site for a good number of years and there's plenty of good information here. Kudo's to the folks that keep the website going on a day-to-day basis.

At the top of this thread, I saw the mention of a particular medical doctor by the name of Dan Angress. He expressed concern about the use of opioid maintenance... which , over the years, has proven to be pretty darn successful.

Dr. Angress, in my opinion, is far from a member of the healing community. For decades, he has operated a "treatment center" that "specializes in the treatment of the prescribing professional". In other words, he rounds-up doctors that have been implicated in using or drinking even the slightest bit, and he hold these guys "hostage" in his little "program" with the explicit threat that he will turn them over to the medical board for license revocation if they fail "to go to any lengths" to maintain recovery and sobriety. Typical 12-step, unsubstantiated dogma.

The only options he offers are 12-step, faith-based, total-abstinence programs. His typical "treatments" last 4-6 months (essentialy inpatient) and he mandates a 5-year "after-care" program that consists of 12-16 AA meeting per month and drug tests that never seem to stop. In a nutshell, he's setting these folks up for failure.

Why?

Simply because it they "slip", they're back to his program again for another couple of months. (Read Dollar signs!!!) Those docs will do ANYTHING to keep their license to practice and Dr Dan knows it too!

Dr Angress isnt the only charlatan engaged in such shenanigans. He learned from the MASTER of coerced treatment: Dr Doug Talbott.

Dr Talbot operated a little clinic in Atlanta for impaired physicians. It was 12-step/abstenance based (and the wanted $5000 up front before you could even walk in the door). EVERYONE who went to Talbott's clinic for a "4-Day assessment" ended up staying 6 months.. or more. The sadistic Dr Talbot even had T-shirts printed up for the newbees that said, "Im here for a 4-day assessment".

FYI, Dr Talbot was eventually sued successfully for false imprisonment and I suspect that more of the same is coming down the pipes for Dr Angress and perhaps the "good folks" at the Farley Center in Virginia, another American Gulag for doctors that just happen to become addicted to percocet, or happen to test positive for weed. Yup.. these folks are being sent to treatment for 4 months... away from their jobs and family and then subsequently subjected to 5 years of AA meetings, counseling sessions, and humiliating witnessed urine tests... just because they tested positive for mary jane.

Its time that impaired professionals were given the TRUE story about ALL off their treatment options... including moderation management... and including opioid maintenance.

These smiling "doctors" in the "treatment profession" are truly a disgrace to the healing profession. Its time they THEY need to be held accountable for the ways that they have mistreated their fellow professionals... and all for the love of a dollar.

I hope that the state medical boards and PHP's will begin to seriously investigate the behavior of these treatment programs.

Even impaired professionals deserve to be informed of ALL their treatment options.

Happy Trails,
DrWild
Click to expand...

Agreed, RNs suffer a similar faight with DEKS or whatever they call them, ect... A system for impaired health proffessionals thats designed to protect the nurse as well as the public from the nurse by instituting draconian punitive measures including ETG monitoring or whatever its called. I have a pet thread about heroin maintenance that I've included in this thread in an early post. I shall included it again because It has alot of good resources regarding the swiss heroin scheme, evolution, ect... allthough this country has an excellent, high quality health care system, the philosophy influencing the treatment of addicts specifically and addiction in general is highly puritanically. This is perpetuated by specialists in the field like Dr. Drew and his cold turkey zero tolerance approach . I don't know what medications he allowed his patients but the women that was on xanax that suffered seizures (was the dose tapered/ switched to a longer acting benzo) and the guy that was on methadone having to go cold turkey seems unconciounable, innapropriate and excesively , unnecesarily cruel, but I didn't see their treatment plan so i am speculating. Maybe the adverse outcomes make for good ratings? Point is the prevailing attitude on treating addiction is at its best barbaric and quaint/outdated emphasizing zero tolerance and at its worst punitive making sure people suffer for their own good- so that their will be a dissentive to relapse in the future, or because they are thought of as scum that deserve to suffer or whatever the rationale. A profit motive behind what amounts to sanctioned criminal negidence, malpractice, or involuntary servitude in the name of drug prohibition as applied to the rehab of docs come as little surprise to me. I will repost my previous post and link to my swiss heroin maintenace site/ harm reduction because their are in my estimation alot of good resources therein:

Something Phrozen posted way back


Quote:
I think the whole point is to allow people to quit on their own terms, all while putting them in contact with the people that can help them along the way. The goal of methadone maintenance, and heroin maintenance, is to reduce the harm caused by an addiction to an illicit drug. And there are countless studies showing that both work, with heroin probably working better than methadone.

Providing it just for detox doesn't make sense from a pharmacological or psychological point of view. Simply put, its half-life is too short and it's too euphoric.


I'm a little surprised by how some people, here out of all places, are against it. I guess this is what needles exchanges, and methadone maintenance, were up against at first.

Qwe, Lacey K, and others make some very good points. The country with the most recent experience with Rx heroin is the swiss. In 1986-1992 they decriminalized drug use in a park, platzspitz, aka needle park. It was a step in the right direction but an eye sore for the tiddy swiss. So they instituted a heroin Rx scheme and it was voted in by initiative...the swiss, always pragmatic, shot down decrim MJ...because of the great resounding success there RX system was undeniably having, the people voted it in as the law of the land. They have safe injection rooms. In Rotterdam, they don't have Rxs I believe, but "house approved dealers."

Heroin Rx in Swisstzerland: A 15 year success story

This is my pet harm reduction post. Tons of stuff- the swiss have had plans of possibly starting Rx cocaine- but i don't know the status- know they have safe crack smoking rooms were you supply your own drugs, as do cities like Frankfurt.

Anyway the results of the swiss experience if anyone has the time to sift through the stuff:

Reduced crime.
after 18 months- a majority of people on the plan reduce there dose significantly (as Lacey pointe out with her anecdote). The chain of waking up sick- hustling money- getting right or punked perpetuates the cycle of dependence.

up to 1/3 choose other forms of treatment- like methadone, bupe, or total abstinece.


Another fact in post # 16 down towards the end of the post (beginning of post 1950s) discussion of heroin MT- as early as 1957 a joint commission of the AMA and American Bar Association recommended a trial heroin maintenance experiment which came as a suprise to me. Its our jobs collectively to get the truth out about the benefits of harm reduction, and evils of drug prohibition.
Click to expand...

A major obstacle, profit motive and involunatry motive aside is the rigidity in people opinion toward addiction, pain management, ect... Health professionals still treat addiction as a moral deficiency in my experience. So many people are so brainwashed it confounding. Plus I don't smoke but I don't support all this no smoking in public places. Many I think do it because it makes them feel morally superior, they get satisfaction over excercizing their control over how others choose how to excercise the persuit of happiness.

our jobs- spread the truth anyway we can. But I urge those who care about the scene in swiss confederation to sift through the links and articles.
 
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Beenhead said:
I agree.

This is the dumbest article I have ever read in my life. It makes zero sense at all. Methadone is not even a treatment for opioid abuse...
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way to show off how incredibly, supremely ignorant you are about this subject. You obviously aint got the slightest understanding of any of this. If you dont understand somethin, makin broad-ass generalizations about it aint gonna accomplish jack shit except make you look foolish.
 
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