Medical Heroin Works to Beat Opioid Addiction

[dyingtomorrow]

I don't know why they don't try it with dilaudid / hydromorphone in the U.S. It wouldn't have any of the same stigma attached and would probably have the exact same positive results.

Shit, anything would be better than suboxone / methadone, the absolute worst, least satisfying drugs you can give a heroin addict.

 

[jspun]

I don't know why they don't try it with dilaudid / hydromorphone in the U.S. It wouldn't have any of the same stigma attached and would probably have the exact same positive results.

agreed. Dilaudid has been tried with success in some studies, and it;s not schedule I in the us nor caries the stgma that heroin does as you pointed out. I think that addicts should be allowed to choose which one they prefer. Some might like morphine, other oxymorphone, some might even prefer pantopoon type preperations. The point is harm reduction. I think that IV drug users, in the name of harm reduction should be allowed to have picc lines put in or oher ports so they save veins, and with proper training, decrease the risk of infection through a central line. PICCs can last for months with good care and porta caths longer. You would see much less cellulitis, endocarditis, colapsed veins, sepsis, of course, HIV and hep C, and prety much every shot would be a sure thing with the blood return to prove it- no nasty misses and abscesses.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Face it, some people simply need a shit load of hardcore tranquilizers to be tranquil. I don't see how that's hard to understand. It's not about whether you agree with it, it's about cutting down crime, disease and death. It's not an end game either. The scrizophrenia still exists. This honestly doesn't suprise me, especially from Vanc. If you want to surprise me, show me a fucking alcohol maintinance program. How about an alcohol transdermal patch?

My AlkiePatch keeps me going throughout the day without needing a drink at all! :D

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Some people probably won't agree with this, but I think if they're gonna give out H at clinics, they honestly might as well let you take it home too. I think there should also be some sort of hotline that you call right before your shot so in case anything happens and you OD they can send an ambulance. I say this cause a junkie just sometimes NEEDS to have that shot right before going to bed

What if your shot just hits you so hard you go to sleep, and the other person on the other end of the phone thinks you've OD'd? Would you prefer cops/medics to wake you up every time you nod off?

I understand this might save lives, but I can't see too many people utilizing this to be honest with you.

Maybe I got your point wrong, but wouldn't you say (generalize) that shooting heroin, or more specifically, a heroin habit, would lead to other illegal activities, and not the other way around?

I was being sarcastic JC. Not all heroin users resort to crime, just a lot of them.

My sarcasm was based on the idea that it's better to have more crime in a society. Whether it's legal or illegal, users will use drugs, and if it's illegal, there'll just be more crime.

The sarcasm hints at the fact that maybe some users are content with stealing, whereas you would hope most non-drug using people wouldn't want there to be more theft against people like themselves.

I have been on soboxone for years, If one injects soboxone the naloxone in it goes to work,its an opiate blocker and will and does block the buprenorphine so if injected you get very little or nothing.

This is incorrect Barry. This is a myth perpetrated by R&B so as to fool the FDA into approving Suboxone, effectively creating a monopoly on buprenorphine. (And yes, the FDA was fooled by it, they're not a bunch of IDU's obviously).

I have tried Subutex and Suboxone, they both give the same effect, especially when IV'd.

I have had severe depression for years and some of the opiates help so much but doctors cannot prescribe it for this reason. I have tried so many so called antidepressants and found some of them are very addictive. Paxel (peraxotine) and effexor and to me when I stopped them I went through bad withdrawal. To me it seems some antidepressants are very addictive so please tell me what is the difference ?

You actually get high with heroin. For me, Zoloft WD was worse than acute heroin WD.

Off topic - ^ Naloxone blocking bupe sounds very believable and its great in theory, however it does not work that way in practice. I've shot sub many times and I'm not proud of it or anything, nor am I trying to bust your balls, but I can say for certain that this theory is a myth.

It's not "great in theory" because buprenorphine has more receptor affinity than naloxone does. It's "great in theory" for people who know nothing about pharmacology.

But thank you, this proves my point. Naloxone does not block the effect of buprenorphine, especially at 2mg of it to every 8mg of buprenorphine.

Can you people please stop saying: "Yea sure this would work BUT THE GOVERNMENT would NEVER let this happen.....ect" Last time I checked we own the government, the goverment doesn't own us.

Last time I checked, my constitutional rights were being perpetually violated by the Patriot Act.

The government owns us all now.

No shit, methadone wd's blow and I feel there isn't enough know about bupe to prescribe it im on 32mgs a day and hate it but it does keep those withdrawals away. i'm 100 percent convinced i could kick using a regimen diacetylmorphine i find the wd's from dope some of the easiest to deal with and easiest to wean off but by no means is the entire process EASY in ITSELF, I'd never touch another substance again if theyd ween me off with that. I'd sign a binding contract.

How is a contract going to bind you to not ingesting drugs? Doesn't that sound a bit impossible to you?

I don't know why they don't try it with dilaudid / hydromorphone in the U.S. It wouldn't have any of the same stigma attached and would probably have the exact same positive results.

Shit, anything would be better than suboxone / methadone, the absolute worst, least satisfying drugs you can give a heroin addict.

I disagree, buprenorphine is wonderful.

agreed. Dilaudid has been tried with success in some studies, and it;s not schedule I in the us nor caries the stgma that heroin does as you pointed out. I think that addicts should be allowed to choose which one they prefer. Some might like morphine, other oxymorphone, some might even prefer pantopoon type preperations. The point is harm reduction. I think that IV drug users, in the name of harm reduction should be allowed to have picc lines put in or oher ports so they save veins, and with proper training, decrease the risk of infection through a central line. PICCs can last for months with good care and porta caths longer. You would see much less cellulitis, endocarditis, colapsed veins, sepsis, of course, HIV and hep C, and prety much every shot would be a sure thing with the blood return to prove it- no nasty misses and abscesses.

It would be better to hand out 31g short tipped insulin syringes. I can hit my veins 4 to 6 times a day and I haven't lost any veins. I think people just need to be trained how to IV. Learning how to do it on your own is much harder.

You make some great points though, if they are IVing more than 10 times per day, it would obviously be better to have a port/etc with the right experience.

 

[DexterMeth]

I don't know why they don't try it with dilaudid / hydromorphone in the U.S. It wouldn't have any of the same stigma attached and would probably have the exact same positive results.

Shit, anything would be better than suboxone / methadone, the absolute worst, least satisfying drugs you can give a heroin addict.

Didn't William Burroughs get off junk and then opiates entirely by using hydromorphone like this.

 

[dyingtomorrow]

I disagree, buprenorphine is wonderful.

I'm not going to go into my personal experience, but I've been to a couple rehabs, met countless junkies, been homeless from being a junkie, etc. The only people I've ever seen who did well on suboxone fell into two categories:

1) People who switched on to suboxone from something that was a lot weaker like vicodins or shit like that.
2) People from a place where you get crappy heroin. Related to #1.

I've never heard of anyone who has been addicted to good dope who could tolerate the BS that is suboxone for long. The only heroin users I've ever seen who actually were okay with suboxone were doing dog shit quality tar. Suboxone is just not satisfying whatsoever if you have been on good shit for too long. Even though methadone sucks too, it is a lot better than suboxone in that regard. At least it is partially satisfying, and doesn't just leave a huge empty gnawing black hole in you the way suboxone does for people who switch onto it from long term use of potent heroin.

I'd say the key is - if you wait 24+ hours and switch on to suboxone and you actually feel okay from your first dose - in other words, if it doesn't take you 5 days before you stop even being sick from switching onto the suboxone, you'll probably be okay on it. If you are from a major city where they get good quality shit, you are probably going to fucking hate suboxone.

Suboxone is the absolute best thing to do a quick taper with, if you do it right the withdrawals are negligble. For a maintenance drug it is horrible.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I'm not going to go into my personal experience, but I've been to a couple rehabs, met countless junkies, been homeless from being a junkie, etc. The only people I've ever seen who did well on suboxone fell into two categories:

1) People who switched on to suboxone from something that was a lot weaker like vicodins or shit like that.
2) People from a place where you get crappy heroin. Related to #1.

I've never heard of anyone who has been addicted to good dope who could tolerate the BS that is suboxone for long. The only heroin users I've ever seen who actually were okay with suboxone were doing dog shit quality tar. Suboxone is just not satisfying whatsoever if you have been on good shit for too long. Even though methadone sucks too, it is a lot better than suboxone in that regard. At least it is partially satisfying, and doesn't just leave a huge empty gnawing black hole in you the way suboxone does for people who switch onto it from long term use of potent heroin.

I'd say the key is - if you wait 24+ hours and switch on to suboxone and you actually feel okay from your first dose - in other words, if it doesn't take you 5 days before you stop even being sick from switching onto the suboxone, you'll probably be okay on it. If you are from a major city where they get good quality shit, you are probably going to fucking hate suboxone.

Suboxone is the absolute best thing to do a quick taper with, if you do it right the withdrawals are negligble. For a maintenance drug it is horrible.

I'm from the east coast, we see good heroin here.

Quality of heroin has nothing to do with how Suboxone works for people; how long you were dependent on opiates, and at what dose you were at (which is hard to measure due to the variable purities of heroin), and your own personal pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics.

I think Suboxone is a great maintenance drug, you just can't take huge doses of it for a positive effect. The positive effects effectively disappear (for lack of a better word) as you go above a certain threshold.

 

[chrisinabox]

^Yeah I agree. I use to do good quality heroin and thought I would never be able to quit with buprenorphine, but I have now been on bupe maintenance for roughly 22 months now and have no desire to use heroin. You just gotta be off the heroin for long enough to get use to the buprenorphine high or lack thereof. You can't expect it to be similar to heroin cause it is not, I find it very different in terms of opioids. I find that people try out bupe once or twice and just write it off as shitty just because it wasn't 'satisfying' enough or didn't 'help' enough. It didn't do that once or twice for me either, it took a while, but eventually it can work very well for maintenance. I wouldn't ever recommend bupe maintenance over a bupe taper though as buprenorphine is very hard to come off of itself but that is another story entirely.

 

[poppywonderland]

Idk I know this isn't a suboxone discussion and I have only tried it twice but I am not finding it effective by any means. I cant find any pain relief from it.

 

[NoSmackAroundHere]

So many folks are so against methadone still, I just don't see the diacetylmorphine thing happening ever in the US, not that I am 1oo% opposed to it. It's hell just to be treated fairly being on methadone! I can only imagine the other. God bless them for at least trying to help those that methadone just doesn't work for.

 

[NoSmackAroundHere]

Poppywonderland, I totally understand. I have also tried it twice. I know it has worked for many, but not for me.

 

[drminaq]

It is nice to hear that the results of this study NAOMI (North American Opiate Medicalization Iniative) which took place in Montreal and Vancouver was a God send for me.

I am one of the lucky candidates who got to shoot up to 9 points of Pharma grade heroin over the course of 12 hours. Three times a day I went waited and got my shot.
Too make a long story short this process took away any possible fun of using Heroin for me. The ritual, the score, the prep, youor surroundings make a profound impact on what is recreational. After about 4 Months the thrill was gone and I asked my Doc to start the taper downwards. This was done slowly with little notice.

Today I use opiates very occasional (1 month) and I have started to become a Kratom fiend However without the above process I would still be on the streets of Montreal and if any of you know the winters in Mo-town...that is not a treat!

 

[SZodiac]

It is nice to hear that the results of this study NAOMI (North American Opiate Medicalization Iniative) which took place in Montreal and Vancouver was a God send for me.

I am one of the lucky candidates who got to shoot up to 9 points of Pharma grade heroin over the course of 12 hours. Three times a day I went waited and got my shot.
Too make a long story short this process took away any possible fun of using Heroin for me. The ritual, the score, the prep, youor surroundings make a profound impact on what is recreational. After about 4 Months the thrill was gone and I asked my Doc to start the taper downwards. This was done slowly with little notice.

Today I use opiates very occasional (1 month) and I have started to become a Kratom fiend However without the above process I would still be on the streets of Montreal and if any of you know the winters in Mo-town...that is not a treat!

Interesting story. Let me ask you though, how was the Pharma grade Heroin? My experiance has been that very pure dope, (Vietnam/Thailand) actually had very little of the "rush" I'd experiance from good street dope properly cut with manitol or milksugar and quinine. The high purety stuff came on rather slowly but had great legs. I understand your "whole experiance" situation adding to the recreation but in my case, I'm not and never have been enamored to the copping process of dodging cops and rips. If I had a delivery service, I'd be quite happy to continue using and probably would have never gone the methadone or suboxone route. While I understand that needing to go too the "clinic" to dose 3 times a day could be a drag, I probably would have put up with it indeffinately. The UK used to have a presciption program for heroin and coke (and methamphetamine too) where the addict went to the chemist once a day and got his supplies then took them home for use. Shame that stopped.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Idk I know this isn't a suboxone discussion and I have only tried it twice but I am not finding it effective by any means. I cant find any pain relief from it.

To be honest, buprenorphine doesn't have the same analgesic qualities that full agonist opiates have. However, buprenorphine does have some analgesic properties, despite it being only a half-full/half-empty kind of thing.

still, I just don't see the diacetylmorphine thing happening ever in the US

Heroin was once legal in the United States. You don't have to see it to know the past.

 

[Beenhead]

DIAMORPHINE IS THE CAUSE OF MOST OPIATE ADDICTION, NOT AN EFFECTIVE ALTERNATIVE TREATMENT

I agree.

This is the dumbest article I have ever read in my life. It makes zero sense at all. Methadone is not even a treatment for opioid abuse...

 

[castoutbySociety]

I'm moving to fucking canada....enough said....or Switzerland.

 

[DexterMeth]

I agree.

This is the dumbest article I have ever read in my life. It makes zero sense at all. Methadone is not even a treatment for opioid abuse...

And what in your opinion is? Dumbest article in your like? Really? I bet everyone that is still alive because of methadone and suboxone would disagree with your ignorant statement.

 

[Paregoric]

The cost

Is this not all down to cost? In the UK where diamorphine is a prescribable medicine it is only precribed where the benefits outweigh those of morphine (which is cheaper per unit dose) and in Scotland as an example Oxycontin and Oxynorm (both relatively expensive in the UK) are only prescibable where the patient is intolerant of either morphine or diamorphine (both cheaper than oxycodone). I am talking here of prescribing in terminal care. In a country such as the US there would many hurdles to jump in order to use diamorphine in the treatment of Street Heroin abuse. The cost and the fact that it would have to meet your Regulatory Boards (FDA I presume) approval. You already have methadone and it's very cheap and therein I suspect lies the issue. The lowest (used)dose of diamorphine injection in the UK is 5mg and comes in at US$3.90 and the lowest used dose of methadone is 10 mg and is $1.40. We have a methadone program in the UK and I believe the oral solution is the way it is pushed although injections are prescibeable for substance abuse.

 

[DexterMeth]

Assuming that economics keep the trains on time.....

Morphine would be great, but not everyone tolerates it will if at all. Hydromorphone, oxycodone, fentanyl and oxymorphone should all be included as options..as well as codeine.

Methadone is very cheap yes, but in this end it doesn't all come down to cost...it comes down to how much it's helping society, that's the point. It doesn't exist in the first place because money can be made off of it (and even that's debatable), it exists because there is a problem that it helps solve, or stabilize the problem..both of which are better than not existing at all and letting the problem reign free like cancer.

What would your solution be? No one is saying that diamorph should be the only and main maintinance/detox program at all, it should be an option. I don't know how to pay for it now, and don't know many people who would pay to help someone else out in the first place, especially since most people blame the user for being addicted to whatever in the first place, let's just not get into people ok? I won't. I suspect if we reduced the military budjet, which is very easy and well overdue, the costs of a program like this wouldn't be hard to cover.

I think it's a very small price for everyone to collectively pay to reduce crime, disease and death in this country, if not the world. Most people don't even realize how big a problem the whole substance abuse issue is. They've come to believe that rehabilitation programs not only do enough but are doing right in the first place, none of which of course is doing the best above all..law enforcement.

Drug use isn't talked about all the time, considering just how big a problem it is, because no one talks about it by and large...until it kills someone (which is a shame), gives someone aids (which is immoral and still kind of sad...wow really?), or someone gets robbed/hurt because a junkie busted them up for their money to get high (which just goes to show you how fucked up and undesirable users are in the first place)...right......

There's a war on "terrorism"...come on now.

 

[i are spectre]

"However, there were more serious adverse events in the diacetylmorphine group — 51 versus 18... The most common serious adverse events with diacetylmorphine treatment were potentially life-threatening overdoses in 10 patients and seizures in six. None of the patients died."

lmaoduh /end

 

[smutt butt]

I wish the medical community would look into Kratom. I read somewhere that they were but don't remember where. Kratom took my WD's away completely.