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Dissociatives [Ketamine Subthread] Isomers: R and S Ketamine

The round / barrel crystals and increased sedation definitely sounds like S-ketamine.

As for Amber, yes there exists medical ketamine that is S-isomer only.

But both of you, do not think this is conclusive. Especially for Amber the dose just might have been a little different or the setting. The purity wouldn't have any effect except for the effective dose that will be acting. So be careful with thinking you have without a doubt determined that it was either isomer that caused the effects...

Oh and about body effects: Neither doesn't give me nausea but S-ketamine can make me dizzy in high doses. S-ket, when used chronically, also takes a toll on my GI tract and seems to be the major cause of K pains (abdominal cramps of the gallbladder it appears), it also fucked up my eating pattern and probably helped give me constipation.
A friend of mine got his whole digestion to a standstill once with K and I think it's likely S is again the major contributor of the two, having tested them extensively separately.

R-ketamine has very little effect on my body.
 
I have recently acquired what I believe to be (S) ketamine. I snort my K, and I noticed the difference in the high is that this one seems to be more of a "head" high. By that I mean it's more in your mind than your body. I obviously still have the "wobbles" while walking, but it's nowhere near as bad as while on racemic K. On racemic K, I have to constantly hold a wall while trying to walk around on high doses, and getting up from a sitting position is a mission, while on (S) ketamine it's a lot easier. What I like about (S) ketamine is how intense the mental high is. You zone out so easily, and you get confused as to what's going on and how you generally feel completely "fucked up." On racemic ketamine, I can get be on a high dose of it and I can just say "I'm really K'd out right now," vs on (S) ketamine, on a high dose I say "I'm really fucked up right now!" On (S) ketamine it's a lot scarier, if that makes sense, when comparing the high to being sober. My last little rant is that (S) ketamine gives me more of a tunnel vision.

Ketamine is definitely a weird drug.
 
I agree Jamshyd!

But I do believe it's the other way around. With the S-isomer I get *much* more anaesthesia, up to the point that R hardly produces any. I understand that PCP is a bit more like that as well: the mind can be dissociated in ways while the body is not, so you can still move around in a disturbed state.
Maybe you mean something else with classically psychedelic but S-ketamine is not really that psychedelic at all, it gives me a more wholesome uniform dissociation, much less jumbled up and confused than the racemate or R.

I don't like to call R classically psychedelic either but rather psychotomimetic / psychotogenic. Friends agreed with me that especially in higher doses it can be pretty psychotic, far beyond the useful psychosis of DMT and much more frantic and frenzied.
It's not all that strange somehow if you think that R dissociates parts of the mind while leaving contact with the outside world intact. So especially if interaction with that outside world is required it all goes wrong and the mind tends to become quite conflicted about it.

Racemic seems to integrate that more bodily part of dissociation or anaesthesia of S and the mental part of dissociation, a sort of psycholysis - if I use that term correct - that R produces.

Hence why I say "psychedelic-like" :).

Last night I made a very long post in ADD detailing a problem I find when people talk of dissociatives: most people don't seem to understand what I mean when I say "anaesthesia", and themselves seem to use the word interchangeably with "analgesia".

By anaesthesia I mean separation from one's senses. Basically, it is the same way one's body feels when one takes N2O.

Indeed, my favourite Ketamine, which seems to be simply 50/50 racemic (whatever is present in most veterinary vials), feels almost like N20 that lasts long enough for one to actually experience something substantial from it. IMO, this sensory deprivation is very important to Ketamine's entheogenic properties.

As you suggest, this seems to be a property of having a mixture of the isomers, and not one or the other. For a long time, this effect had been commonly associated with the R isomer.

Like I said earlier in this thread (or maybe elsewhere), I was once given a sample of purportedly pure R-Ket, and while I didn't get the chance to experiment with it extensively, I found it to be even less impressive than mostly-pure S-ket.
 
Oh and about body effects: Neither doesn't give me nausea but S-ketamine can make me dizzy in high doses. S-ket, when used chronically, also takes a toll on my GI tract and seems to be the major cause of K pains (abdominal cramps of the gallbladder it appears), it also fucked up my eating pattern and probably helped give me constipation.
A friend of mine got his whole digestion to a standstill once with K and I think it's likely S is again the major contributor of the two, having tested them extensively separately.

R-ketamine has very little effect on my body.

This is very interesting. The ONLY time I got gallbladder-spasm from K was when I was taking what was purportedly mostly s-Ketamine (Anesket).

Otherwise, using Ketalar and the like, and even abusing them once in a while, I never experienced any stomach pains or the urinary problems that people claim.
 
This is very interesting. The ONLY time I got gallbladder-spasm from K was when I was taking what was purportedly mostly s-Ketamine (Anesket).

Otherwise, using Ketalar and the like, and even abusing them once in a while, I never experienced any stomach pains or the urinary problems that people claim.

OK then so that seems to work about the same for us. :)
I got my worst K-pains from racemic but that was probably because I also used too much GHB in that time and I went on such a long K binge eating so little that I was just asking for it.

Other than that it makes sense: S has mostly effects on proprioception and anaesthetic effects for me so I would call that body dissociation... while R has
mostly sensory effects involving interpretation of incoming sensory information so I would call that mind dissociation.
Of course the dissociation is between body and mind to put it very (much too) simply but I think that S plays a part rather in cutting contact off from the body function side and R plays a part rather in cutting contact off from the sensorical side. Their effects meet each other in the middle, in the mindbody where our thoughts about our body and the outside world and the connection between those lives.
So racemic is actually a pretty effective mixture if you consider it this way, it works from both sides as if you had two cables connected with a plug and taking racemic K is like pulling on both sides of the cable to unplug the connection.
 
Ketamine Crystal Shapes Correlated to Isomer?

Hi everyone,

So there seems to be a lot of debate about the s+, racemic, and r- isomers of ketamine.

Recently SWIMs source changed and went from the shard crystals (green box) to the other kind of crystals (red box).

4707380757_38342cc7a6_b.jpg


The effects are totally different. The shard crystal k-hole was clean and memorable, not confusing and uncomfortable. The shard crystal ketamine left your mind still able to think, able to read (whereas the new one makes you have to close one eye to read things on the computer screen.) The shards seem much cleaner and the k-holes more interesting and memorable.

Is this correlated to the s+/r- isomer difference? Any thoughts?
 
the R isomer seems rather uncommon. The S isomer not so much. To answer question it could be the difference between getting a racemic mixtures or just the S. I feel as though that is the most plausible. I've experience something to similar to you. The first time I got K I'm pretty sure it was the S isomer based loosely on qualitative experience reports/timeline.
 
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The S-ket I've had has all been shards as in the first pic. Racemic always like the second. Never had R-ket. There was a thread on this very topic a while back with a general consensus that the shape of the krystal wasn't likely to be any kinda guarantee of isomer but my memory may lie. Will see if I can find it later... unless one of you other mods that are much friendlier with the search button don't find it first ;)

Ah! Perhaps the one this is shortly to meld with :)

Also, S-ket ftw <3

PS: Please don't SWIM on ket - or on BL. Not only a risky activity to indulge in whilst holed but also provides zero legal protection and is horrid to read. Stick with the ketomised SWIMming of the Kosmicly Kaleidoscopic Kind :)
 
Haha Shambles you're funny!

Yes the shards are the absolute best, and my guess is that's the s+ isomer. Can't seem to find anything but that stuff in the second picture (probably racemic) in London lately and its not half as fun. :(
 
I have had both the kinds for K from the picture above. The shards are a much more clean, enjoyable experience. Where as with the other kind is much more hectic and is more of a "ride". Well thats what I've found from my own use at least. One think on my to do list is to get both kinds and experiment with different ratio's of the two mixed together.
 
The strange thing is, the red left box seems to show crystals that are not necessarily sharp shards but rather rods (round tube-like forms) mixed with rounded cubes. And these rounded cubes seem what is the only thing shown in the right green box.
Looking at what is apparently a mix on the left, I have to say that there are 2 types of crystals I see and not something in-between. The rods all have a width that seems to repeat itself, don't you agree? Not thin and fat ones. The clumps, the big rounder ones seem like different compound altogether.

IME pure racemic K crystals tend to have a shape like the rods/tubes. The only S-ketamine that I ever had and the only other picture I have seen from someone else's were these rounded cubes. Something like sugar but more coarse / bigger crystals.
The only R-ketamine that I ever had was sharp like shards. The crystals were fine, needle-like, pointy, not "broken off" like the rods but pointy. They also seemed to scrape against each other creating miniature shards.

I can't say it explains your picture and experiences unfortunately.

It really doesn't seem likely that someone actually mixed isomers. I don't know if it is crystallographically possible that the different isomers in racemic K crystallized separately because of their preference to same isomer crystal packing. Honestly I don't think that is possible, it goes against my gut feeling big time.
More likely it seems that the clumpy crystals are aberrations of racemic ketamine, formed as a consequence of crystallization circumstances.

The K on the right still seems like S-ketamine to me.

Personally I find S-ketamine clearer and less chaotic on the mind, but at the same time I wouldn't call it clean because it is pretty anaesthetic. At significant doses I think memory is more easily impaired. It may explain why you weren't that comfortable with it although definitely not everyone is negative about the S.

This is the best explanation I can give, the R-isomer is less common indeed making it sensible that you have racemic and S. The reason it is less common is that liquid K is either S or racemic. The different isomers are produced synthetically and sold as crystal (that is how I got it - never was liquid at any point), the R has much much less demand and has not always been equally available for that reason. Last I've heard it was back again though, after having been away at one of the biggest producers in the world (a known one in certain circles).
 
Personally I find it hard to put labels on the effects on these isomers and say that one isomer does 'that' and thus the other not that. I have heard lots of times that people say that one of the forms is the more psychedelic one. It is very confusing since with something like ketamine psychedelia can mean different things to different people.

Recently I have had the S isomer through I.M. administration (the agrovet brand) which was indeed different than racemic, whether taken I.M. or insufflated. It couldn't have been R since it is known agrovet is S and R-ketamine is not seen in medical vials since it has no application in anaesthesia. The point is: my experiences with agrovet confirmed my experiences quite a while ago that I have had with both separate isomers in crystal form. I now know that I was correctly informed which was which. S came as rounded box-shaped crystals and R came as jagged sharp shards. Every time I have had or seen racemic as big crystals they were rods, a form in-between round and sharp/elongated.

It is true that the speed of crystallization can influence the shape of crystals, the size is even more influenced. This is a general fact in chemistry, but it doesn't mean that every compound lets itself to be packed in every different sort of crystal lattice, they have tendencies or characteristics that come out most characteristically when crystallization is slow. If the process is sped up, the shape can become more indistinct. Talking about racemic ketamine for instance, the rods may not be straight or parallel anymore but become more jagged and fucked up. Or the rods are not long anymore making the shape resemble boxes more, because a cylinder which has a height the same as the diameter looks almost the same as a sugar or salt 'rounded cube' crystal which is shaped the same in every direction.

By all means, I am not trying to make the point that ketamine can in any instance be analyzed just by looking at it. You can make an educated guess especially if it is more distinct (for example when crystallized slowly) or if you have a microscope, but other than that you can't be so sure.

About your questions about the effects: I couldn't say whether S or R was more 'happy' to me. R seems to be more stimulating and manic, to me there were sides apparent that I also feel with methoxetamine and hear that PCP and 3-MeO-PCE have: monoamine effects, a little ritalin or MDPV like, at least in that sort of direction. A strong pulling of focus and attention, sharp mental awareness. Only cognitive effects make it hard to actually use that attention for decent formation of thoughts. Low doses are very euphoric, yes indeed happy, socially stimulating, but as the dose gets higher the euphoria doesn't really increase. Relatively fast it goes from stimulation towards manic overstimulation. Thoughts become less rationally regulated and more schizo. I then stop being able to understand or recognize even the most common of objects in my end. If I continue I might end up wearing my underwear on my head. Total absurdity ensues.

That said, R is physically cleaner than S. It does not knock down my body, is not numbing / anaesthesizing. Little if any reduction in pain, no fuzzyness - sharpness instead. S on the other hand feels physically like sinking into a bath of being unable to clearly feel the body, it is not a cold or hot bath, it is more like removal from any ability to feel temperature which by definition makes it 'okay' or not-problematic. And similar to that other body and mind functions also seem to become unable to determine and fuzzy. All of this fuzziness is uniform and homogeneous to me. That feels nice and floaty, dreamy for sure. If the dose gets higher than that I may forget what is up and down, where I am, even higher and I can have trouble remembering what happened afterwards.
 
Do you mean anaesthetic? I find that effect to be more significant than analgesia. Yes I know I am digging up an old thread, but I was copying the bottom text to here anyway from another post in another thread.
What I don't know for sure - cannot remember from experience - but think is true is that the happy effect you get from low doses of ketamine is probably primarily from the strange sort of stimulation of the R-isomer. See here:

javp84.png


source

But the vague thing is: there is not that much known or said about the R-isomer. Apparently it's 2-3x weaker as an NMDA antagonist, it has 2-3x less affinity for MOR (μ opioid receptor), 4 times less affinity for the PCP receptor site... so how much is actually left? On wiki it is suggested as a possibility that R has more sigma activity but there is no source cited.

2n0kpbl.png


ketquote3.png


source

(I'm gonna have to try get access to http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/2/197.short at a later time)

So I don't really understand, an oversimplified conclusion drawn from research results would indicate that the R-isomer is just not as good as doing what S does on almost all accounts... so I wonder then what makes the R-isomer so potentially schizo? Do you think that because motor impairment is much less pronounced and there is less anaesthesia, less of an emergent state that perhaps what milder effects the R-isomer may have they are not 'cushioned' by the dissociative hole effect? And if less cushioned, it might result in something similar to PCP mania (it felt like that to me)... but how? Apparently dopamine effects are limited... so I don't quite see the mechanism how it can feel so fucked up.

I also wonder if 3-MeO-PCX compounds tend to bear more resemblance to the R-isomer or the S-isomer of ket, but that's not the topic.

Ketamine is known to affect so many different receptors, is something being overlooked? Have I just never found the right literature? I wouldn't mind if someone would heroically post a list of affinities for the different isomers.

---------------------

I posted the following in the DMT extraction thread because of a tangent analogy:

Anyway R-ketamine feels very cognitive and chaotic for me, like it messes a lot with the way you process information to make it nonsensical. As a consequence I stop comprehending what the most common objects are or what they do and things like spatial perspective can get very distorted. It does very little to my body, I can just walk around on it no problem. It seems like R is dissociative in a way that concepts get disconnected but I stay within some sort of fucked up frame of reference as a substitute reality.
S-ketamine on the other hand is very physical and more of an internal experience for me. Rather than dissociating concepts, I start to experience or perceive concepts as being related parallel or as a web, and not as a tree or serial pattern anymore. Meanwhile it does dissociate me from my body and the more that happens the more I identify with the internal state, increasingly forgetting my previous relationship with consensus reality and with that my personal identity.
Consider your personal identity is also basically a concept, R is also able to make me forget who I am almost as easily as stopping to understand what a computer mouse or remote control is. The time I did the most R-isomer I ever have in a session I came down with all sorts of objects in totally inappropriate places. Like really underwear on my kind of shit. It was pretty schizo, a lot of it was not really nice anymore.
 
Sorry to dig this old thread up again, but I think this might be worth adding. I've been reading a lot of stuff about ketamine lately and I'm starting to think based on all these experiences that the effects being described from (R)-ketamine are largely anticholinergic in nature. First, here's an article about the anticholinergic effects of ketamine in general.

Inhibition by ketamine of muscarinic acetylcholine receptor function.

Although ketamine's primary site of action appears to be the phencyclidine receptor on the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor complex, additional activity on opiate and quisqualate receptors is suggested. Some phencyclidines have been shown to interact with muscarinic receptors, but this has not been determined for ketamine. We studied the interaction between ketamine and the m1 muscarinic receptor, the most prominent subtype in cortex and hippocampus.

...

In summary, ketamine profoundly inhibits muscarinic signaling. This effect might explain some of the anticholinergic clinical effects of ketamine, both central (effects on memory and consciousness) and peripheral (prominent sympathetic tone, bronchodilation, mydriasis).

That quote actually takes me to my next point... the bronchodilation mentioned in the previous post. There are signs like this scattered throughout all the experiences, like how (R)-ketamine is more chaotic and delirious and hallucinogenic whereas (S)-ketamine is more of the anesthetic dissociative. So I have to wonder, since it's known that (R)-ketamine is much lower on the NMDA antagonist properties, if the main difference is that (S) is more dissociative and (R) is more delirious?

Solipsis, if you see this, are you experienced at all with anticholinergics? Do you think this affinity could explain at least some of the effects of (R)-ketamine? Your descriptions certainly seem like they could apply to deliriant effects to me. Even what you posted previously about test subjects enjoying it more, as low doses of anticholinergics can provide euphoria that is more general than trippy like I imagine (S)-ketamine would be. (I haven't had the fortune of tasting either separately, at least not to my knowledge.)

As a final thought, this may be a bit more obscure, but I remember reading reports of people saying that amphetamine cancelled out some of the delirium of diphenhydramine for them. I also remember reading that (S)-ketamine is a more potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor than (R)-ketamine. I wonder if that's why both the former and racemic mixtures tend to be less visual and delirious (so I hear, anyway) and more clearheaded than the latter?
 
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This is an interesting thread with a quiet long history of just over a decade.

To begin with fairnymph writing about the two optical isomers of ketamine and going onto TheTripDoctor whom surely is an expert in a different chemical substance, though is also correct when concerning the effect of the different stereoisomers of ketamine.

There was problems in using racemic ketamine in medicine due to its psychoactive properties, the properties that I suppose are more favorable to yourself. Well what's positive for one person can turn out negative for another. Anyway, when it was possible to produce the S-ketamine, it was more favorable molecule than the R isomer, because it not only was more potent for the NMDA receptor than R-ketamine it did not have the psychoactive properties to such an extent as the R isomer.

Theoretically the R-ketamine is the one you ought to be more interested in psychedelically, however this has not entirely have to be true, because a mixture of both ismoers can favor the psychoactive effect when in an optimum ratio. This is a theory for I do not know what role does the NMDA receptor play, whether the biding of it can favor a greater psychedelic experience.

One good example of the point I am trying to make concerns amphetamine. The two isomers that is the l (R) and d (S) of the simple form of amphetamine molecule the 1-phenylpropan-2-amine. One of the isomers the S is better at stimulating dopamine release, however it is the R isomer that stimulates the release of norepinephrine several times more than the S isomer, though it has a bad effect on the heart. The conclusion is that a 25% S and 75% R mixture would produce a quiet stimulated effect with a touch of euphoria, on the other hand a 25% R and 75% S mixture would produce a rather euphoric effect with a less stimulated effect than the first version mixture. Then again you can go for a racemic compromise and go 50:50.

Anyway this post concerns ketamine and one thing that I can say about ketamine overall is that it is a truly promising chemical substance with a huge potential in medicine and aiding in solving many problems sometimes not even medical in nature.

The other substance that has an extreme potential in medicine is LSD. I know this thread concerns ketamine, but this has to be pointed out somewhere. At present in psychiatry their really aren't any chemical substances that cure psychiatric disorders, they all merely are aimed at eliminating the side effects of the disorders, however by using painkillers to eliminate pain you don't eliminate the source of the pain that is the problem.

LSD has been demonized I predict mainly to fuel the psychiatric-drug-production-money-making-machine and their have been lies written concerning LSD. For example I have read in a pharmacological dictionary that LSD is a toxic substance or that it aided the production of toxic substances in the body (I am not sure of the words used), in whichever case that is not true, for LSD is a a relatively non-toxic substance. The only documented studies concerning LSD and the damage it can do to the human body concerns the ability to cause mutations in chromosomal DNA of certain cells. I have read these various studies done both in vitro and in vivo and to conclude based on those studies, that if LSD has any effect to cause mutation to chromosomal DNA of certain cells it is equivalent to the damage caffeine can do. In other words, by drinking coffee you will damage your chromosomal DNA of certain types of cells pretty much to the same extent as if you would when you consume LSD, in general.

The other lie concerning LSD in that pharmacological dictionary is that most medical experts came to the conclusion that LSD has no potential in medicine. This is the biggest lie of them all. What is safer to use in psychiatry, psychotropic medication (drug used in psychiatry) or LSD? I know of a case of a person whom abused a certain psychotropic medication for three days in a row and that person never came back to be whom he is. There have been made irreversible changes in his brain and that person lives in an alien reality. This is the potential of psychotropic medication. They are very powerful and dangerous substances that if misused can be lethal, but it is LSD that is demonized to be the dangerous molecule. This is ridiculous to the power of infinity. LSD is extremely compatible with the human body and does alter the state of mind of the person, however when the substance is out of the body to much extent you return to "normal". You are not exactly the same person as before, because you already have experience you did not have, but you don't exist in the altered reality after the LSD experience.

LSD has enormous potential in psychiatry to in fact treat psychiatric disorders and not just patch them up by eliminating the side effects of psychiatric diseases. Of course there are psychiatric disorders that are more difficult to cure, due to actual physical changes to the brain, but that is a different story. All that needs to be done is intensive research in the potential ways LSD can be used to treat specific disorders and with the aid of ketamine and other chemical substance, things that first seemed impossible, can become possible, for for every problem there is a solution, you just need to find it and then act. Psychiatrists in general do not even understand sufficiently the many disorders they try to treat, for if they understood them, then surely they would know the solution to them, but as you don't understand the problem, the same you can't solve it. I know that LSD is the miracle molecule in psychiatry, but who will listen? I guess a man has to take things in his own hands and begin the research to prove the point. So be it.

Take care to all

שלום
 
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S-Isomer Ketamine dosage

Hello,

I recently got of 1 Gram pure S-isomer ketamine (i trust my source)

It will be my first time trying ket, and I am not sure about the dosage since pure S-Ketamine should be quite a lot stronger, according to my internet research.
While i find plenty of dosage suggestions for normal ketamine i didn't really find any for only the S-isomer of it.

I plan on snorting it, and first take a medium to strong dosage to experience the effects, and then take more an hour later to get to the K-hole.
This is also a thing I am not sure about, how effective it will be to redose while on the trip, and how much i should redose to get to the K-hole, as I don't know how much of it will still be in my body, or if there is an immediate tolerance. I also don't want to get close to the narcotic dosage.

I hope someone can help me


Cheers
bamoida2

edit: I am Male, 180cm, 70kg
 
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Compared to normal (racemic) ketamine, the S-isomer is about 133% as strong (so 33% stronger).
This is because normal ketamine is made up of 50% S-ketamine and 50% R-ketamine and S-ketamine is about twice as dissociative as R-ketamine by certain standards (probably measured NMDA antagonism which is the main mechanism of dissociative action).

Because racemic is 50/50, if you make a little sum, it shows that S is 33% stronger than racemic.
For example if you normally take 100 mg, now you need 75 mg, approximately.

However the quality of the experience is also just a bit different so it is not a simple comparison. I find S-ketamine to cause a more uniform hole experience while R-ketamine is more schizo and hectic while it hardly makes you hole at all.

Redosing just works pretty much the same but there is a bigger anaesthetic component, just work your way up in increments. It hits pretty fast just like typical ketamine. An hour is plenty. But it is a good idea to carefully get used to the new aspects of the experience.

I think I started using the separate isomers after I had already built up a considerable tolerance so I can't help with all questions.
 
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in my experience s-ket has had a shorter duration than r-ket, but perception wise the shorter (s-ket) trip lasted much longer. I would take 30-40mg IM if i was doing s-ket for the first time. It will feel cleaner, also this dosage shouldn't be overwhelming for anybody.
 
S-ketamine indeed has a shorter half-life than even racemic, (source) but I agree about the effects seeming to last longer. Actually the anaesthesia recovery time for S-ketamine is about double compared to racemic (source).

I think that this has something to do with the fact that the S-isomer impairs motor function 3-5 times more than R (source), and this disturbance and it's pervasive and secondary effects causes much more pronounced impairment you actually need to recover from.
Mind you, on enough R-ketamine it can get confusing how to handle or interpret even the most basic object so there is need of time to recover from that, but regarding anaesthesia there isn't much to recover from to begin with. So I think it has something to do with the ability of the body to recover from certain types of disruptions.
 
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